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Post by christophert on Aug 4, 2023 3:14:05 GMT -6
This is a luxury business and recording sessions you can live off of are a luxury / vanity product. We can have a romantic view of things but, as far as I can tell, we are in a nepotistic society. Go look at the credits and the biographies of actors in all the movies people watch, records that get made, scripts that get greenlit, the marketing pushes that "made" things happen. Very few underdog stories left, especially in anything involving a band.
I do not know where I would be without the media/film/TV/writing gigs in between the recording/mixing/mastering stuff. You don't want to deal with major labels - hell, you don't even want to deal with bigger indie labels. This is the dumbest industry in all of media and always has been. And the kids know they don't really need you until, fifteen years later, they realize you worked on something they love. There is no mom and pop Thai, Italian, etc. bistro around the corner. There is just Nobu and McDonald's - as with everything else now, there is no middle. All subject to fashion. The good news is that the working people you meet at both the high end and the blue collar part are for real and all in because they can't help it. But in case Reverb.com didn't make it obvious to you since 2020, this entire industry is subject to the whims of patrons and asset classes that have nothing to do with art.
I applaud anyone who soldiers on, you're a real one. But money and making ends meet while living a reasonable life...I think you know that this is wishful thinking. As far as practical advice goes, do the things that attract like minds, the kind of people you want to work with. I don't think diversifying makes sense right now in this era. You want to stand for something, you want to be clear in who you are creatively, as versatile as you may be. That might mean making more songs you enjoy irrespective of others, making videos about making your songs and putting out content you want to see and doing it even better than before, as opposed to meeting the whims of an ADHD, consumption-hungry audience. Don't play someone else's game, play your own and if that means getting a different job and doing music on the side, I think that will lead to less regret than attempting to game the algorithm and taking on job after job trying to make it work.
Do things at a higher execution level. Be honest with yourself about your current execution level. Could someone else put out the same video? Okay then iterate until no one else can do what you can do. The only way to survive this is to become singular at what you do.
Plenty of people probably don't like Blake Mills or Flying Lotus or James Blake or whoever right now. But no one can replicate them.
There are plenty of great artists out there, with great realistic attitudes, and a massive amount of great music is released every week.
But they are almost impossible to find if you look in the obvious places. They are in the suburbs, small gigs. They make their own records with whatever they can muster. They don't need you - nor me to make and release great music. They are in it for the right reasons. Money and success means nothing to them cause they don't have any, and are not driven by it. They look down on "professionals".
On a bigger level - I see this as refreshing and positive. They are true artists.
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Post by spindrift on Aug 4, 2023 5:05:39 GMT -6
Can you point me to some of this “great” music made at home by artists who don’t need anybody but themselves? Not saying it can’t be or isn’t done but my experience tells me it’s rarer than you’d have us believe. There is an amazing amount of mediocre music released every week where the involvement of a professional producer and recording engineer might have helped move it out of the mediocre to at least “good”.
I get your sentiment….but the flip side of the coin is a band as obvious as Radiohead. Are they not true artists? Do they fall on their sword and do everything themselves and look down upon the professional Nigel Godrich?
My best record making experiences have been when everyone comes to the table with their best talents, the songwriters, players, arranger/producer and the engineers.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 4, 2023 6:59:10 GMT -6
And the Autotune.
Chris
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Post by Chad on Aug 4, 2023 7:50:04 GMT -6
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 4, 2023 9:04:45 GMT -6
It helps to find something related. I work for a University producing instructional media. It’s not rock and roll, but a similar skill set. And it pays the bills. This ^^ Finding a position doing corporate/instructional media is likely to be a much more solid career choice. You might have to pick up some video editing chops, but I'm sure you've already got the audio skill set. It might sound more enticing to mix in the genres you enjoy, but the bloom will be off that rose after the umpteenth 18-year-old metal project. There's another thing nobody's mentioned (I think). AI is already turning up in products that provide mixing help. It won't be long before it eliminates the sort of service you've described. Of course it's not artistic--so far it's not even that good--but most people on a limited budget are still working in the sound world of the acts they like most. They'll just pop in a few model mixes and AI will do EQ and levels in something approximating that sound. 40 years ago it seems that there was a 4-track studio on every corner. The people that owned those studios were in bands (or had been in bands) and had good ears and a knowledge of the gear they owned. The came Portastudios and such and those studios were gone in an instant. Didn't sound as good, but it sure was cheaper. Now we have people who've invested in decent interfaces & mics and can provide unlimited tracks of recording and mixing. Perhaps their own performing dreams had to take a back seat and they're just looking for a way to make a living. History is going to repeat itself. Thankfully I don't work in metal. I've been lucky to work with really great jazz and classical musicians. The last gig in March was with two amazing players who were at Carnegie performing the material a couple weeks after tracking. Mixing is so much better with these types. I would almost say mixing is non-existent. Very little to be done. The other project I'm working on is not a genre I usually work in and it's coming with all the the headaches you would expect. So much so that I'm thinking about finding a way to get into software engineering so I can only record and mix the stuff I like. Bonus - I'd have enough money to afford all the gear I want then, too haha. But with AI coming as you say, the writing is on the wall. I don't think moving forward in mixing is a good idea, other than for side projects I enjoy. I suppose there will be people(for a while) who want the traditional experience of mixing, but I can't imagine 99% of people not just using AI to mix their stuff eventually. Once mp3's took off and listening on cell phones it proved that the quality people like us care about just doesn't matter so much. Most people don't even know it exists to compare it in the first place. I digress. This thread is not about me. My apologies. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 4, 2023 10:32:24 GMT -6
Like his Father my Son wants to do music professionally with no idea of the reality. He is gaining experience but speaks 3 languages and I told him if he learns to be a teacher he can work anywhere and do anything. Touring and studio work in a band is impossible to make a steady career from these days unless you’re a duo but if he trains to be a language teacher him and his sister can have my church studio when I downsize or retire. He agreed and I signed it over to them. I just want them to have a future in this ever difficult world. My daughter speaks 5 languages including Korean and Mandarin so she is set but my son needed some incentive as he’s a dreamy creative. If I was their age I’d study coding. I'm lucky in that I get to do a lot of different things audio wise at my full time gig. Recording, Mixing, Mastering, Production audio, Post production audio, Sound design. It's fun. And pays well. That said, I've started to look at whats out there and it is very clear to me which area I'd be studying for and gunning for jobs if I was in college. Sound design for game studios! They can pay really well, 80-180k a year, and also seems like a super fun job. A lot of them are remote work possible now. And the studio have tons of great benefits. I've even though about learning Wwise myself to try and get some side work for small indie games to get experience to apply for some of the bigger studio's jobs. Bungie is hiring a Senior Sound Designer right now an its salary range is 150-180k plus major benefits and is remote. So if your kid wants to go into audio, do that. It's the most lucrative field in audio by far from what I can see. Video Games are the only sector of the Entertainment industry that are ROLLING in mountains of cash without any signs of slowing down. Plus it's been proven time and time again that small indie games can have massive break throughs. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 4, 2023 11:30:37 GMT -6
FWIW, I've found over the past few years the greatest generator of mixing business and being able to charge a living wage was improving my skills as a producer, from an arranging and songwriting point of view. I've found that if the artist feels you've seriously leveled up their songs or flesh out their ideas, they are yours for life and will pay you whatever rate (and then some, sometimes!) to keep working with you. At that point, they are no longer paying you for a technical skill so much as your unique judgement and taste, which is of course, harder for a "competitor" to replicate. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sage advice!!! I'd add that only "you" are "you". Whatever you can do to make yourself unique and desirable is a plus at making a go at it. It could be your proximity to great restaurants. Your humor. Your instinct at deciphering artist lingos. Your ability to be a jack of all trades to fill in missing gaps. Your unique approach to various musical styles. Your ability to produce / arrange without heavy handedly destroying an artists initial concept, but instead making it bigger and better than they imagined. Etc., etc., etc. As I mentioned or maybe eluded to in my first post, for almost 2 decades, I have not been selling ANY studio time - only my personal time. That works if you can find some hooks in your unique self / workflow that will attract others. That is what will sell you. Not gear. Not anymore. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 4, 2023 11:32:06 GMT -6
I saw this on IG yesterday and I thought this was quite telling, and on point for the original thread topic. Made me laugh.....  |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 4, 2023 11:51:08 GMT -6
I saw this on IG yesterday and I thought this was quite telling, and on point for the original thread topic. Made me laugh..... View AttachmentHow he is charging $250 a mix is beyond my line of thinking… |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 4, 2023 11:52:10 GMT -6
I've tried to sell myself. But had to pay to play instead.  Chris |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2023 12:19:37 GMT -6
To you point about needing to be specialized, I don't know anything about anything, but it seems to me with the amount things you "can do" with digital that more genre-specific trickery and methods have developed over time. So maybe it's just too hard now to be good and deep dive multiple genre's. Just a thought. Yeah I didn't have time to get into specifics in my original post but that's exactly what I think. I see it particularly with modern metal, the editing, the triggering and the overall sound has just become so specific and homogenized that a great mixer that's never worked with that genre of music would not be able to just jump into it and make a band happy ( unless maybe he's already specialized in electronica or dubstep where I feel there's a lot of overlap). I once tracked a punk band, one of the guys was friends with a pretty big mixer ( who never mixed punk) and they got a great deal to have him mix the album. The test mix he did was so far off what they wanted that they stopped working with him right away, he'd taken all the agression away from the guitars, and the bass and the hi-hat sounded super smooth, I guess from a purely technical pov it was a good mix but man was it boring and the band hated it, I'm sure with some work he would've been able to do something more to their liking but what's the point when you can find somebody who understands the music and how to mix it. Modern commercial metal (pretty much like a few labels and tech death) is basically not even music anymore. Most of the guys who specialize it can’t mix anything else because they don’t really know how. They just replace everything with samples and reamp everything. Give them a band who wants to record for real and you’ll have the most fucked up recording and idiotic mix decisions imaginable because they’re clueless and have no experience. Same with some big name pop mixers. Some of them are fucking clueless as to what to do with something that has to be left as is or “the same but bigger, louder, better” and doing things like cleaning it up and then adding dirt back in but better is beyond them. Then you have tons of modern hardcore and metal guys with zero fucking idea how to use certain pedals in a tone unlike old death and black metal and shoegaze guys. Anyway enough criticizing guys trying to hustle. This is CLA mixing in flames. They were never that great sounding but this is criminal: |
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Post by crillemannen on Aug 4, 2023 12:30:57 GMT -6
Yeah I didn't have time to get into specifics in my original post but that's exactly what I think. I see it particularly with modern metal, the editing, the triggering and the overall sound has just become so specific and homogenized that a great mixer that's never worked with that genre of music would not be able to just jump into it and make a band happy ( unless maybe he's already specialized in electronica or dubstep where I feel there's a lot of overlap). I once tracked a punk band, one of the guys was friends with a pretty big mixer ( who never mixed punk) and they got a great deal to have him mix the album. The test mix he did was so far off what they wanted that they stopped working with him right away, he'd taken all the agression away from the guitars, and the bass and the hi-hat sounded super smooth, I guess from a purely technical pov it was a good mix but man was it boring and the band hated it, I'm sure with some work he would've been able to do something more to their liking but what's the point when you can find somebody who understands the music and how to mix it. Modern commercial metal (pretty much like a few labels and tech death) is basically not even music anymore. Most of the guys who specialize it can’t mix anything else because they don’t really know how. They just replace everything with samples and reamp everything. Give them a band who wants to record for real and you’ll have the most fucked up recording and idiotic mix decisions imaginable because they’re clueless and have no experience. Same with some big name pop mixers. Some of them are fucking clueless as to what to do with something that has to be left as is or “the same but bigger, louder, better” and doing things like cleaning it up and then adding dirt back in but better is beyond them. Then you have tons of modern hardcore and metal guys with zero fucking idea how to use certain pedals in a tone unlike old death and black metal and shoegaze guys. Anyway enough criticizing guys trying to hustle. This is CLA mixing in flames. They were never that great sounding but this is criminal: Cla has tried to mix metal before and failed miserably every time haha! In flames album Clayman (original from 2001) sounds better then anything they've released since then. It is actually quite good sounding even in todays standard. I was an intern at Studio Fredman who recorded it and created the Gothenburg sound in the late 90s. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2023 13:01:54 GMT -6
Modern commercial metal (pretty much like a few labels and tech death) is basically not even music anymore. Most of the guys who specialize it can’t mix anything else because they don’t really know how. They just replace everything with samples and reamp everything. Give them a band who wants to record for real and you’ll have the most fucked up recording and idiotic mix decisions imaginable because they’re clueless and have no experience. Same with some big name pop mixers. Some of them are fucking clueless as to what to do with something that has to be left as is or “the same but bigger, louder, better” and doing things like cleaning it up and then adding dirt back in but better is beyond them. Then you have tons of modern hardcore and metal guys with zero fucking idea how to use certain pedals in a tone unlike old death and black metal and shoegaze guys. Anyway enough criticizing guys trying to hustle. This is CLA mixing in flames. They were never that great sounding but this is criminal: Cla has tried to mix metal before and failed miserably every time haha! In flames album Clayman (original from 2001) sounds better then anything they've released since then. It is actually quite good sounding even in todays standard. I was an intern at Studio Fredman who recorded it and created the Gothenburg sound in the late 90s. Cool! Yes it sounded okay which is rare for metal. And the cla remix sounds like Play Dough. Other stuff is different like the at the gates re-recordings sounding way better than their new albums and often their old ones. You can hear things now not guitar and cymbals in them that aren’t audible on the older ones. With metal sadly, it’s being able to hear the instrument at all sometimes. Unfortunately Gothenburg style production was copied to do shitty gridded records for subpar artists or former excellent artists phoning it in. Same as the Morrisound sound on Altars of Madness became the template for bad death metal sound. Dissection had the Alesis d4 drums but they’re obviously played live in the studio without a click. Then you hear the same drums gridded in other productions and it’s a wth moment because so many metal artists are not skilled enough musicians to play their own songs live in any way recognizable to the record. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 4, 2023 13:14:01 GMT -6
I saw this on IG yesterday and I thought this was quite telling, and on point for the original thread topic. Made me laugh..... View AttachmentYea. That's what his rate says in the back of TapeOp, too. Thats what I charge, and I'm nobody. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2023 13:18:08 GMT -6
Another thing is you need to charge based on the recording quality and what they want done and be realistic with the amount of billable hours. If they want that nukular blast sound but are too incompetent to sequence their own midi drums and provide dis and stuff, charge out the ass and demand a producer’s cut because that will take longer than to mix the record down!
Same with some cassette or 4 track metal, punk, and lofi person with guitar music. Some of it is pretty much frickin almost done already raw. Others… they didn’t even know how to use the noise reduction on a porta studio and you’re going to have to move Heaven and earth to make anything audible. You want the first gigs. They’re easy and if you have any taste for rougher music, hard to screw up. The latter? Run because unless they could afford a restored 688 for 2-3k, they can’t afford to pay you for your time!
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Post by bricejchandler on Aug 4, 2023 13:41:24 GMT -6
crillemannen Were you at Fredman when they recorded BLackwater Park?
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Post by crillemannen on Aug 4, 2023 14:48:20 GMT -6
crillemannen Were you at Fredman when they recorded BLackwater Park? Nope, that would have been something! Most famous recording I attended was Chelsey's smiley by Bring me the Horizon. |
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Post by smashlord on Aug 4, 2023 18:51:07 GMT -6
Anyway enough criticizing guys trying to hustle. This is CLA mixing in flames. They were never that great sounding but this is criminal: It's not a "bad" mix, its just not a metal mix by any stretch of the imagination. It sounds like a Nickleback mix.....wrong vibe completely. No sack, no depth. I think a lot of rock guys make the mistake of thinking mixing metal is the same sort of deal, but really it's quite different, especially the placement of the guitars and bass. The original may be devoid of mids, but it still sounds like a metal record. Surprised they didn't have someone like Andy Sneap mix it, if they wanted a bigger name guy. Those newer Testament and Exodus records sound fantastic. |
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Post by jmoose on Aug 4, 2023 18:52:30 GMT -6
There's another thing nobody's mentioned (I think). AI is already turning up in products that provide mixing help. It won't be long before it eliminates the sort of service you've described. Of course it's not artistic--so far it's not even that good--but most people on a limited budget are still working in the sound world of the acts they like most. They'll just pop in a few model mixes and AI will do EQ and levels in something approximating that sound. Yes there is more technology then ever. There is also more work then ever before. Yet, the top talent still seeks out the top results. Ferrari doesn't really lose business to Ford. If Ford was the only car available a lot of people would be riding the bus. As you said there's nothing really artistic about the kinds of AI / auto mixing "solutions" that are already out there. The vast majority of that tech is aimed at lo-rent hobbyists... bottom feeders and nothing I'm personally concerned about "devaluing" my own career. YMMV. |
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Post by gmichael on Aug 4, 2023 19:29:57 GMT -6
If I was their age I’d study coding. You'll go wash your mind out with the 1st three Morcheeba records and never speak of this again! I don't want to imagine a world without Morcheeba, or creative you dude
I have spoken on the matter!  lol
Doesn't everyone do a little coding these days? In 5-10 yrs it will be an entry level occupation like serving burgers. Creativity is humanity's future once we get rid of all the foundational noise of we are told to believe is the most important societal infrastructures. By creativity, I am not limiting that to the arts. Finding ways to eradicate our future of the burdensome chore of carrying a past that has divided and controlled people for centuries is the creative purpose we want to encourage from our children I think. I'm terrified and excited at the prospect of what true chaos that will free humanity from our own past socially politically spiritually and economically et al. Until then, I'm all for kids staying home or adding a house for them and their families to an existing homestead, doing nothing or little outside of self discovery and creativity, growing food and finding their own super power that shatters our persistence that self worth is based on what they can earn. I think that is where we are all at and most will resist it. It will happen in our kids lifetime.
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Post by drbill on Aug 4, 2023 20:27:34 GMT -6
If I was their age I’d study coding. Doesn't everyone do a little coding these days? In 5-10 yrs it will be an entry level occupation like serving burgers.
Or not even there at all. Most coding will be put into motion via prompt engineers who will evaluate and then re-prompt until right. Those jobs will pay large. AI is raging.... One of my high end coding buddies uses ChatGPT to write code for him as a short cut all the time. Takes him a couple of minutes instead of half a day. Then he quickly makes a tweak or two and is done. |
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Post by gmichael on Aug 5, 2023 3:05:23 GMT -6
Doesn't everyone do a little coding these days? In 5-10 yrs it will be an entry level occupation like serving burgers.
Or not even there at all. Most coding will be put into motion via prompt engineers who will evaluate and then re-prompt until right. Those jobs will pay large. AI is raging.... One of my high end coding buddies uses ChatGPT to write code for him as a short cut all the time. Takes him a couple of minutes instead of half a day. Then he quickly makes a tweak or two and is done. My no.1 guitar student uses ChatGPT to rough in his homework and then mods it to pass the check filters. I wish ChatGPT could help him remember his modes with the same ease! lol I turned him on to Vivaldi and he has near mastered 2 of the Four Seasons and is now on a Paco DeLucia buzz. I'm so proud of him at only 15 but I need him playing stuff besides exotic Phrygians! Remarkable kid. From Metallica & CoB covers to Paco...just beaming!!
Ok, yes we just had a session and any reason to talk him up will do. So proud of this generation coming up
Thats very interesting about prompt engineering, first time I have heard that term
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Post by bricejchandler on Aug 5, 2023 3:19:47 GMT -6
Or not even there at all. Most coding will be put into motion via prompt engineers who will evaluate and then re-prompt until right. Those jobs will pay large. AI is raging.... One of my high end coding buddies uses ChatGPT to write code for him as a short cut all the time. Takes him a couple of minutes instead of half a day. Then he quickly makes a tweak or two and is done. My no.1 guitar student uses ChatGPT to rough in his homework and then mods it to pass the check filters. I wish ChatGPT could help him remember his modes with the same ease! lol I turned him on to Vivaldi and he has near mastered 2 of the Four Seasons and is now on a Paco DeLucia buzz. I'm so proud of him at only 15 but I need him playing stuff besides exotic Phrygians! Remarkable kid. From Metallica & CoB covers to Paco...just beaming!!
Ok, yes we just had a session and any reason to talk him up will do. So proud of this generation coming up
Thats very interesting about prompt engineering, first time I have heard that term
It's pretty nuts how much AI has changed coding in the last couple of years. You can prompt, or you can also start lines of code and the AI will figure what you want to do and complete it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 8:30:56 GMT -6
Anyway enough criticizing guys trying to hustle. This is CLA mixing in flames. They were never that great sounding but this is criminal: It's not a "bad" mix, its just not a metal mix by any stretch of the imagination. It sounds like a Nickleback mix.....wrong vibe completely. No sack, no depth. I think a lot of rock guys make the mistake of thinking mixing metal is the same sort of deal, but really it's quite different, especially the placement of the guitars and bass. The original may be devoid of mids, but it still sounds like a metal record. Surprised they didn't have someone like Andy Sneap mix it, if they wanted a bigger name guy. Those newer Testament and Exodus records sound fantastic. There’s no depth, vocals too processed and distorted in the wrong way, rhythm guitars sound like a pop rnb group trying to be Metallica, drums suck and sound like Green Day, levels totally off, And the lead tones are pure play dough or what your girlfriend’s dog poops out after eating chapstick or lipstick. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 8:35:59 GMT -6
Don't hold back Dan, remind me to never send one of the mixes I've done to you LOL..
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lol