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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2023 7:31:16 GMT -6
I think my mixing approach is a bit out of date, through interviews and chatting with a couple of well known mixers I seem to be about the only who does things like parallel bus compression nowadays (for e.g. a drum or vox bus with comp's blended within the original uncompressed (or lightly compressed) track). I've been following the same methodology for decades and I'm up for trying something new but on the other hand I'm not really sure what the benefits are.
Thing is on my desk you can assign a spare cue to the master bus compressor and blend individual tracks, there's quite a bit of fine control on that side. ITB my templates were rather complicated to avoid having cymbals in the parallel comp as they can get pretty nasty when crushed. So removing parallel busses might reduce some complexity? I guess? Less EQ work factors in although you can do some neat EQ tricks on parallel busses as well.
Sorry for the befuzzled train of thought however I'd love some feedback on the subject.
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Post by christopher on Jul 16, 2023 10:28:57 GMT -6
Seems weird to me. I bet most are using a blend knob wet/dry so they are accomplishing the same thing? I’ve known a lot of sound guys and they’d often tell me simple recipes for success, and leave out the important details so that it’s impossible to recreate. One example that tortured me while learning: always use top/bottom snare mics! They never mentioned invert polarity and why you ALWAYS have to. Same with bass DI and mic
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Post by wiz on Jul 16, 2023 15:47:45 GMT -6
I think my mixing approach is a bit out of date, through interviews and chatting with a couple of well known mixers I seem to be about the only who does things like parallel bus compression nowadays (for e.g. a drum or vox bus with comp's blended within the original uncompressed (or lightly compressed) track). I've been following the same methodology for decades and I'm up for trying something new but on the other hand I'm not really sure what the benefits are.
Thing is on my desk you can assign a spare cue to the master bus compressor and blend individual tracks, there's quite a bit of fine control on that side. ITB my templates were rather complicated to avoid having cymbals in the parallel comp as they can get pretty nasty when crushed. So removing parallel busses might reduce some complexity? I guess? Less EQ work factors in although you can do some neat EQ tricks on parallel busses as well.
Sorry for the befuzzled train of thought however I'd love some feedback on the subject.
This isn’t going to help…but it made me think……I don’t think I have ever paralleled anything………mixing wise….ever. I am guessing it’s a lot driven by genre? cheers Wiz
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 16, 2023 16:57:06 GMT -6
Although I can see the merit in trying new things, if ain’t broke why fix it? Everything is just a means to an end, it if works for you it works.
I recently had an amateur mixer tell me I was crazy for NOT using parallel compression, because his friend who won a Grammy told him to do it. I’m like, “yeah so what? Different mixers do different things, who cares?”. He was kind of astonished at my attitude, and had this mentality like there was some special sauce only the pros new about, and that us “normies” would be crazy for not listening. What he didn’t understand is that his Grammy winning friend obviously has the discretion and good judgement to do what works, when it works, and most likely doesn’t care what others think or do. It was a funny conversation, especially because this guys mixes don’t sound that great, so whose the crazy one? Lol
Anyway, not saying that’s you. I know you know all this. But If your system works I wouldn’t second guess it
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Post by matt on Jul 16, 2023 17:00:36 GMT -6
I use hardware parallel compression a lot, across every major instrument group- drums (x2), guitars, bass, vox. I even parallel compress summed kick and snare auxes separately. Many well-known mixers do it too, including Chiccarelli, Vance Powell, Scheps, etc, and I'm sure many more. But as with everything, it depends on who you talk to. For myself, I have no plans to change.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2023 17:47:47 GMT -6
Parallel compression is usually a crutch for poorly set compressors or trying to do something partially cool and get away with it. I always find dialing in the compressor works better than a parallel crush. Filtering can cause phase issues so complicated routing is better but can get you the cool sound of many compressors with the natural sound but I usually just go for coolish anyway to begin with. The problem is the mix of both of them usually must be compressed because parallel compression raises the volume Mike Caffrey’s “two stage compression” method gets around this. www.fullcompass.com/gearcast/common/images/1368-1445-file.pdftapeop.com/interviews/61/two-stage-compression/An even bigger improvement on this that avoids the distortion from the first compressed bus in parallel with the uncompressed bus being compressed again, thus overmodulated are dual detector compressor that treat the louder sections completely differently than the softer ones, eg George Massenburg compressors (GML 8900 and MDWDRC2), Aphex Compellor, Kotelnikov, Oxford Dynamics using both the compressor and the limiter, Dangerous Compressor’s Smart Dynamics, and some others set up correctly but these pretty much force that workflow. Some of these are more flexible, have a wider sweetspot, and are less distorted than others and will use RMS, Peak, or a blend of both detectors.
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Post by smashlord on Jul 16, 2023 18:16:12 GMT -6
Parallel compression out of date? That's news to me. I don't think I know many mixers, especially rock mixers, who don't use at least some sort of parallel processing on drums, bass and vocals. Sometimes serial compression works best, other times parallel can give you easy control over certain aspects like transients, sustain, or grit.
At the end of the day its the sound in your head... how you get there is irrelevant as long as you get there.
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Post by theshea on Jul 17, 2023 0:43:15 GMT -6
i do parallel almost only the drums. most of the time i just put on PA1176 and soundtoys radiator and mix in a tiny bit of it, just for excitement. in reality it almost doesnt mather with what settings because its just a tiny feeling mixed in in parallel. if i want to play with darker/brighter sound i mix in parallel a bit of klanghelm SDDR. but i never overthink it, just a tiny bit. bit i only do drums, i know theres people how do all kind of parallel on busses. but like stated before, to each its own.
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Post by itzprime on Jul 17, 2023 1:00:57 GMT -6
In a metal mix it is pretty much impossible to get that brutal drum sound without parallel mixing. Compressor set at extreme levels, and quite often you have an additional parrallel distortion channel. Having in directly on the Drum Bus often doesn't give the fine details that one wants to achieve (for example removing a lot of the highs/low with a low/high cut) or doing emphasis/demphasis distortion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 5:39:40 GMT -6
In a metal mix it is pretty much impossible to get that brutal drum sound without parallel mixing. Compressor set at extreme levels, and quite often you have an additional parrallel distortion channel. Having in directly on the Drum Bus often doesn't give the fine details that one wants to achieve (for example removing a lot of the highs/low with a low/high cut) or doing emphasis/demphasis distortion. Yep, sounds to me like you've done a fair bit of metal. Although I am "panning" hehe, out from just rock / metal and I was just looking to expand my horizon's, it seems to me like the first post it's either blending, sequential chain and / or just backing off with the comp. Nothing special really..
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 17, 2023 8:03:41 GMT -6
Fwiw my old producer in town does parallel all over the place. He's won producer of the year awards in Austin and has made tons of pretty successful records by indie standards. As someone else said, why fix what's not broken?
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Post by svart on Jul 17, 2023 8:27:12 GMT -6
I use parallel on things that have transients, like drums. The parallel track is to fine tune the "body" of the track compared to the transients. It does something that a compressor alone can't do. I could probably do without it, but it's just easier to get to the end faster.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 9:00:49 GMT -6
Fwiw my old producer in town does parallel all over the place. He's won producer of the year awards in Austin and has made tons of pretty successful records by indie standards. As someone else said, why fix what's not broken? Just expanding my horizon's, if there's nothing to fix no issues.
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Post by drumsound on Jul 17, 2023 10:10:49 GMT -6
i do parallel almost only the drums. most of the time i just put on PA1176 and soundtoys radiator and mix in a tiny bit of it, just for excitement. in reality it almost doesnt mather with what settings because its just a tiny feeling mixed in in parallel. if i want to play with darker/brighter sound i mix in parallel a bit of klanghelm SDDR. but i never overthink it, just a tiny bit. bit i only do drums, i know theres people how do all kind of parallel on busses. but like stated before, to each its own. I'm similar to this in that, I usually set up a drum parallel at the onset of mixing. I also start with the Overheads and Room mics NOT going to it, but there are times when they do. That was my biggest ITB adjustment. From tape and on the console the overheads and rooms usually went to the parallel as well. Some times I do other parallel things, but that is usually song or record specific. I probably should do vocal parallel more often than I do. And I very often use the Tchad Blake bass preset on Decapitator and that has blend built in...
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Post by paulcheeba on Jul 17, 2023 11:51:28 GMT -6
I parallel mix at least. Drum’s about 4 or 5 times. Bass with a fuzzy one. Vocals with a super saturated or squashed one. Plus anything that might feel anaemic and need beefing up and making larger than life.
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Post by jaba on Jul 17, 2023 12:30:01 GMT -6
Once I discovered sending things (kick snare bass usually) to an 1176 right up the middle I never looked back. Gain Brain also great here.
But maybe I do that 50% of the time. Depends on the mix. Even in ITB I find it can work. Started with Blockfish and now it's DevilLoc, or Molot, or dbx160. ITB can be a little less focused despite how far latency correction has come but it usually does more good than harm.
For some reason I never really got along with wet/dry knobs most of the time. Adding a bit of uncompressed into the signal can be nice but almost never use it for say adding 10% of crushed into a drum buss.
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Post by christopher on Jul 17, 2023 14:23:35 GMT -6
So when you say an 1176 up the middle.. you mean a single mono bus send/return? Ok I think I’m understanding. I usually think in LR stereo pairs. Or single instruments send/return. Hmmm, interesting and gets the wheels in my head spinning
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Post by jaba on Jul 17, 2023 14:29:07 GMT -6
So when you say an 1176 up the middle.. you mean a single mono bus send/return? Ok I think I’m understanding. I usually think in LR stereo pairs. Or single instruments send/return. Hmmm, interesting and gets the wheels in my head spinning Exactly. Usually dead center, fed from an aux so you can dial in however much you want from any track. Usually kick snare bass but can also sneak in guitar, vocals, whatever. And it's not just for smash or crunch, you can get some nice movement going on under there.
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Post by drumsound on Jul 17, 2023 20:54:45 GMT -6
Parallel compression is usually a crutch for poorly set compressors or trying to do something partially cool and get away with it. I always find dialing in the compressor works better than a parallel crush. Filtering can cause phase issues so complicated routing is better but can get you the cool sound of many compressors with the natural sound but I usually just go for coolish anyway to begin with. The problem is the mix of both of them usually must be compressed because parallel compression raises the volume Mike Caffrey’s “two stage compression” method gets around this. www.fullcompass.com/gearcast/common/images/1368-1445-file.pdftapeop.com/interviews/61/two-stage-compression/An even bigger improvement on this that avoids the distortion from the first compressed bus in parallel with the uncompressed bus being compressed again, thus overmodulated are dual detector compressor that treat the louder sections completely differently than the softer ones, eg George Massenburg compressors (GML 8900 and MDWDRC2), Aphex Compellor, Kotelnikov, Oxford Dynamics using both the compressor and the limiter, Dangerous Compressor’s Smart Dynamics, and some others set up correctly but these pretty much force that workflow. Some of these are more flexible, have a wider sweetspot, and are less distorted than others and will use RMS, Peak, or a blend of both detectors. I liked Hanging out with Mike back in the day, but that video is terrible. The sounds are good, he's very talented, but his descriptions are not good.
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Post by sentientsound on Jul 18, 2023 10:31:55 GMT -6
I always have quite a few parallel channels set up while mixing, usually at least 1 or 2 get used, sometimes more.
The main advantages for me over using gear/plugins with internal wet/dry mixing or doing serial compression are:
Gluing together multiple instruments or groups (for example lead + backing vocals)
Being able to automate (mutes and/or level) different compressor returns on drums to get various textures or levels of density throughout a song, or have something like an audible pumping come in behind the main sound for certain sections. Always production dependent of course, this doesn't make sense for softer genres but helps a lot in pop mixing or rock to create a sense of dynamics when really there's little overall dynamic range
Having a couple different vocal textures to blend together for tone (even if they're not compressing much)
Having a really aggressive dirty and bright bass parallel that can be muted or automated down in sparse sections and up to help it cut through very busy sections
Using the Standard Audio Stretch modules or a Dolby A/exciter plugin too add air to combined vocal groups or in all-bands mode on a subgroup to add a kick of excitement in a chorus, etc.
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Post by drumsound on Jul 18, 2023 10:58:09 GMT -6
I always have quite a few parallel channels set up while mixing, usually at least 1 or 2 get used, sometimes more. The main advantages for me over using gear/plugins with internal wet/dry mixing or doing serial compression are: Gluing together multiple instruments or groups (for example lead + backing vocals) Being able to automate (mutes and/or level) different compressor returns on drums to get various textures or levels of density throughout a song, or have something like an audible pumping come in behind the main sound for certain sections. Always production dependent of course, this doesn't make sense for softer genres but helps a lot in pop mixing or rock to create a sense of dynamics when really there's little overall dynamic range Having a couple different vocal textures to blend together for tone (even if they're not compressing much) Having a really aggressive dirty and bright bass parallel that can be muted or automated down in sparse sections and up to help it cut through very busy sections Using the Standard Audio Stretch modules or a Dolby A/exciter plugin too add air to combined vocal groups or in all-bands mode on a subgroup to add a kick of excitement in a chorus, etc. Oh, yeah Type A on a send can be really useful. Tiny bits of a few things can really change the vibe and 'excitement level' of a mix.
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Post by sentientsound on Jul 29, 2023 13:40:20 GMT -6
Oh, yeah Type A on a send can be really useful. Tiny bits of a few things can really change the vibe and 'excitement level' of a mix. What did you most often send to it? In all bands mode, just a tiny bit of wet blend is like a sonic highlighter in a different way than saturation.
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Post by sentientsound on Jul 29, 2023 13:42:56 GMT -6
I parallel mix at least. Drum’s about 4 or 5 times. Bass with a fuzzy one. Vocals with a super saturated or squashed one. Plus anything that might feel anaemic and need beefing up and making larger than life. Hi Paul, what are some of your go-to parallels on drums and bass recently?
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Post by notneeson on Jul 29, 2023 15:40:12 GMT -6
Another approach that has come up lately with a visiting engineer:
Sending all the drums to Stereo A on the Legacy with then Smart across it, and then maybe the Neve on Stereo B (everything else) and the 2500 on the master insert.
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Post by paulcheeba on Jul 29, 2023 20:16:56 GMT -6
I parallel mix at least. Drum’s about 4 or 5 times. Bass with a fuzzy one. Vocals with a super saturated or squashed one. Plus anything that might feel anaemic and need beefing up and making larger than life. Hi Paul, what are some of your go-to parallels on drums and bass recently? A Louder than lift off Silver Bullet, an Overstayer comp or 2. The Stam 609. POM’s Fairchild. 1084 eq. Dynax compression. Black Box HG2. Chandler Zener. For starters.
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