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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 2, 2023 5:45:47 GMT -6
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 2, 2023 16:09:18 GMT -6
The problem with all teste like this, the conclusion lacks the very basic qualifier of the results “ for me”. Not picking on you for posting, but the first thing you learn as a gearpimp, needs / value is an individual thing. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 2, 2023 16:45:46 GMT -6
Well, the main reason I posted was that initially we were talking up the pci-e slots but if their bandwidth is compromised: why bother?
buy a studio and external chassis ?
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Post by drbill on Jul 2, 2023 22:52:12 GMT -6
buy a studio and external chassis ? Cause external chassis's come with their own set of problems. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 3, 2023 2:44:41 GMT -6
Not all, i’m not against pci-e slots, at the new MP price seems very odd that apple limited their bandwidth.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jul 3, 2023 16:54:26 GMT -6
Limited bandwidth for the PCIe could be a problem for some use cases....but I don't think it would be for audio unless you are using a lot of storage.
Since you can't use GPUs it is less of a problem overall.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 3, 2023 22:11:25 GMT -6
buy a studio and external chassis ? Cause external chassis's come with their own set of problems. YES |
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Post by seawell on Jul 3, 2023 23:01:29 GMT -6
What issues have you guys had with an external chassis? I've been running a Sonnet Echo Express III-D for 10 years now with no issue at all. I'm curious.
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Post by damoongo on Jul 3, 2023 23:14:33 GMT -6
buy a studio and external chassis ? Cause external chassis's come with their own set of problems. Such as? Just bought the TB4 PCI chassis from Startech and put my Lynx AES16e cards in there and it worked perfectly. No fuss to set up. Running massive sessions with them in the chassis. and the system seems even lighter than when they were in the PCI slots. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 4, 2023 4:53:20 GMT -6
Well, we all have our own experiences, but my single card owc chassis over tbolt for my ua pci-e card worked perfectly.
The only problem, that comes to mind with pci-e cards, were seating problems in towers, mentioned a lot in posts when people are diagnosing.
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Post by drbill on Jul 4, 2023 10:00:38 GMT -6
What issues have you guys had with an external chassis? I've been running a Sonnet Echo Express III-D for 10 years now with no issue at all. I'm curious. A generally more glitchy system (slightly, not a huge issue) than when running cards inside the computer. More latency than when running cards inside the computer. Noisier than running inside a computer. YMMV, but that was my experience. I was happy to dump the expansion chassis. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 4, 2023 13:36:01 GMT -6
What issues have you guys had with an external chassis? I've been running a Sonnet Echo Express III-D for 10 years now with no issue at all. I'm curious. Noise, when I haven't had a machine room.
Also, and this is obviously just personal preference, but I really don't like having a bunch of little boxes with cables going between them. I would rather have one larger box with everything in it. One power supply, one set of fans, etc.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 4, 2023 14:50:45 GMT -6
Hmm, one box to rule them all, sure about that ?  |
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Post by tim on Jul 5, 2023 15:48:26 GMT -6
I was seriously looking at getting one of these new Mac Pros largely just to consolidate the pcie cards. Was using a Mac Book Pro for past few years after my old trash can Mac start having problems. But in the end it’s a crap ton of money and seemed like Apple was just trying to get this thing out despite the same specs as the studio. I ended up just getting a Mac Mini M2 to see how far it gets me. So far so good.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 6, 2023 3:38:08 GMT -6
And saved a bundle !
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Post by ryguydrum on Jul 6, 2023 8:14:32 GMT -6
I have gone the opposite way of Tim (and others) and just picked up my rack mount Mac Pro (M2 Ultra with 24-core CPU, 60-core GPU, 192GB RAM). Im coming from a mac pro trash can that I've used now for about 8 years. It was a solid system for most of its life, but this last year has been a struggle with processing tasks and general sluggishness that have really slowed down my workflow. While everyone is correct that the performance specs are the same between the new Mac Pro and Mac Studio my main reasons for getting a Mac Pro were the following:
1) Internal PCIe slots. Like ericn and drbill have stated above, external PCIe chassis can be problematic with connectivity, noise, and organization. Over the years I've owned Magma, Sonnet, and OWC and all have suffered from one of these (mostly the connectivity dropouts). And after having a trash can for a long time I'm SO ready to ditch my external drive bays, hubs, expansion chassis etc. I have my HDX card, UAD card, and 8 slot NVMe PCIe drive enclosure (with 6 drives!! Pretty incredible efficiency of space, both in actual size and drive capacity) and they are ALL IN THE COMPUTER. No wires! No Hubs! So clean, less physical space used, and just less room for something to go wrong.
2) I spent extra on the rack mount model for for organization and transportation (which is more case specific to my needs). This can live in a rack with my 2 Lynx Aurora N interfaces, power conditioner etc and its only 4 cables I have to disconnect prior to moving. Very very efficient and easy to set up and break down.
All of this comes down to my needs. I realize that I am in the minority of professionals that need PCIe slots (in general and physically in the computer itself), a rack mount option, and from just a viewpoint of keeping things organized this is the ultimate solution for me right now. Obviously, great recordings can be made soup to nuts on a Macbook pro/Mini/Studio etc. there is no debate about that. I just thought I would echo some of the statements from other members above and also offer my opinion for why I spent the extra monies and how it was a great choice for my situation.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2023 13:27:06 GMT -6
I have gone the opposite way of Tim (and others) and just picked up my rack mount Mac Pro (M2 Ultra with 24-core CPU, 60-core GPU, 192GB RAM). Im coming from a mac pro trash can that I've used now for about 8 years. It was a solid system for most of its life, but this last year has been a struggle with processing tasks and general sluggishness that have really slowed down my workflow. While everyone is correct that the performance specs are the same between the new Mac Pro and Mac Studio my main reasons for getting a Mac Pro were the following: 1) Internal PCIe slots. Like ericn and drbill have stated above, external PCIe chassis can be problematic with connectivity, noise, and organization. Over the years I've owned Magma, Sonnet, and OWC and all have suffered from one of these (mostly the connectivity dropouts). And after having a trash can for a long time I'm SO ready to ditch my external drive bays, hubs, expansion chassis etc. I have my HDX card, UAD card, and 8 slot NVMe PCIe drive enclosure (with 6 drives!! Pretty incredible efficiency of space, both in actual size and drive capacity) and they are ALL IN THE COMPUTER. No wires! No Hubs! So clean, less physical space used, and just less room for something to go wrong. 2) I spent extra on the rack mount model for for organization and transportation (which is more case specific to my needs). This can live in a rack with my 2 Lynx Aurora N interfaces, power conditioner etc and its only 4 cables I have to disconnect prior to moving. Very very efficient and easy to set up and break down. All of this comes down to my needs. I realize that I am in the minority of professionals that need PCIe slots (in general and physically in the computer itself), a rack mount option, and from just a viewpoint of keeping things organized this is the ultimate solution for me right now. Obviously, great recordings can be made soup to nuts on a Macbook pro/Mini/Studio etc. there is no debate about that. I just thought I would echo some of the statements from other members above and also offer my opinion for why I spent the extra monies and how it was a great choice for my situation. Often simplicity, portability and reliability are worth more than anything else! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 6, 2023 13:53:22 GMT -6
If it suits a persons needs, it looks like a good solution for those needing a Mac Studio with integral PCI-e chassis (know as a tower :-)
Personally, I think it would of made sense for Apple to have a Mac Pro CPU (M2 Ultra+ or M3) as the tower case could easily supply some cooling.
The M1/M2 CPU's are ideal by design mobile/small device CPU's (Laptops, iPads, Mini's) that give decent power with very little heat and therefore need very little cooling. Compact.
I think a Mac Pro Tower could of stood a more powerful "hotter" CPU.
As to cost, well it's Apple everyone knows how that goes, nobody buys Apple as a budget option.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2023 13:58:02 GMT -6
If it suits a persons needs, it looks like a good solution for those needing a Mac Studio with integral PCI-e chassis (know as a tower :-) Personally, I think it would of made sense for Apple to have a Mac Pro CPU (M2 Ultra+ or M3) as the tower case could easily supply some cooling. The M1/M2 CPU's are ideal by design mobile/small device CPU's (Laptops, iPads, Mini's) that give decent power with very little heat and therefore need very little cooling. Compact. I think a Mac Pro Tower could of stood a more powerful "hotter" CPU. As to cost, well it's Apple everyone knows how that goes, nobody buys Apple as a budget option. Agreed, and that was probably the original plan, but something pressed them to release it now. |
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Post by tim on Jul 6, 2023 15:32:03 GMT -6
I have gone the opposite way of Tim (and others) and just picked up my rack mount Mac Pro (M2 Ultra with 24-core CPU, 60-core GPU, 192GB RAM). Im coming from a mac pro trash can that I've used now for about 8 years. It was a solid system for most of its life, but this last year has been a struggle with processing tasks and general sluggishness that have really slowed down my workflow. While everyone is correct that the performance specs are the same between the new Mac Pro and Mac Studio my main reasons for getting a Mac Pro were the following: 1) Internal PCIe slots. Like ericn and drbill have stated above, external PCIe chassis can be problematic with connectivity, noise, and organization. Over the years I've owned Magma, Sonnet, and OWC and all have suffered from one of these (mostly the connectivity dropouts). And after having a trash can for a long time I'm SO ready to ditch my external drive bays, hubs, expansion chassis etc. I have my HDX card, UAD card, and 8 slot NVMe PCIe drive enclosure (with 6 drives!! Pretty incredible efficiency of space, both in actual size and drive capacity) and they are ALL IN THE COMPUTER. No wires! No Hubs! So clean, less physical space used, and just less room for something to go wrong. 2) I spent extra on the rack mount model for for organization and transportation (which is more case specific to my needs). This can live in a rack with my 2 Lynx Aurora N interfaces, power conditioner etc and its only 4 cables I have to disconnect prior to moving. Very very efficient and easy to set up and break down. All of this comes down to my needs. I realize that I am in the minority of professionals that need PCIe slots (in general and physically in the computer itself), a rack mount option, and from just a viewpoint of keeping things organized this is the ultimate solution for me right now. Obviously, great recordings can be made soup to nuts on a Macbook pro/Mini/Studio etc. there is no debate about that. I just thought I would echo some of the statements from other members above and also offer my opinion for why I spent the extra monies and how it was a great choice for my situation. Makes sense and was my original rationale. +1 on the pcie nvme storage card too. Is the rack mount chassis quiet with all those cards in it? I would assume so and quieter than the sonnet chassis, right? |
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Post by ryguydrum on Jul 6, 2023 16:34:04 GMT -6
I have gone the opposite way of Tim (and others) and just picked up my rack mount Mac Pro (M2 Ultra with 24-core CPU, 60-core GPU, 192GB RAM). Im coming from a mac pro trash can that I've used now for about 8 years. It was a solid system for most of its life, but this last year has been a struggle with processing tasks and general sluggishness that have really slowed down my workflow. While everyone is correct that the performance specs are the same between the new Mac Pro and Mac Studio my main reasons for getting a Mac Pro were the following: 1) Internal PCIe slots. Like ericn and drbill have stated above, external PCIe chassis can be problematic with connectivity, noise, and organization. Over the years I've owned Magma, Sonnet, and OWC and all have suffered from one of these (mostly the connectivity dropouts). And after having a trash can for a long time I'm SO ready to ditch my external drive bays, hubs, expansion chassis etc. I have my HDX card, UAD card, and 8 slot NVMe PCIe drive enclosure (with 6 drives!! Pretty incredible efficiency of space, both in actual size and drive capacity) and they are ALL IN THE COMPUTER. No wires! No Hubs! So clean, less physical space used, and just less room for something to go wrong. 2) I spent extra on the rack mount model for for organization and transportation (which is more case specific to my needs). This can live in a rack with my 2 Lynx Aurora N interfaces, power conditioner etc and its only 4 cables I have to disconnect prior to moving. Very very efficient and easy to set up and break down. All of this comes down to my needs. I realize that I am in the minority of professionals that need PCIe slots (in general and physically in the computer itself), a rack mount option, and from just a viewpoint of keeping things organized this is the ultimate solution for me right now. Obviously, great recordings can be made soup to nuts on a Macbook pro/Mini/Studio etc. there is no debate about that. I just thought I would echo some of the statements from other members above and also offer my opinion for why I spent the extra monies and how it was a great choice for my situation. Makes sense and was my original rationale. +1 on the pcie nvme storage card too. Is the rack mount chassis quiet with all those cards in it? I would assume so and quieter than the sonnet chassis, right? So far the computer is very, very quiet and this is with 2 pcie cards with fans on them (the HDX and NVMe storage card). Sonnet actually makes a fan-less NVMe PCIe card that I was going to get but they were out of stock for the unforeseeable future so I opted for the OWC one eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDACL8M200T/I've only had this up and running for about 2 days so time will tell how its all going to work out but so far it's great. And Tim, I took a hard look at going the way you did with grabbing a mini or a studio and just getting a new computer to drop into an expansion chassis every couple of years (if needed) because you can make the case it's a better bottom line cost option (provided you don't have to buy a new comp every year). But ultimately my previous frustrations with expansion chassis and desire to rid myself of the spaghetti monster that was the trash can made me go the route I did. My Amex is completely melted (and may never be the same) but I have no buyers remorse...yet  |
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Post by tim on Jul 6, 2023 17:39:06 GMT -6
...But ultimately my previous frustrations with expansion chassis and desire to rid myself of the spaghetti monster that was the trash can made me go the route I did... Yeah I shared the same frustration with that trash can rats nest. I actually went total other direction and built a PC with an oversized tower a few years back, which contained everything and had a CD burner to boot, hehe! But I ultimately made my way back to Mac for various reasons. I'm connecting less stuff to this new Mac mini though. No usb/thunderbolt hubs. We'll see how far it goes. I wouldn't have buyers remorse with that Mac Pro either. You'll get a lot of miles out of it I'm sure. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 20:51:31 GMT -6
PCI-E card interfaces still have the lowest latency and best reliability. Especially for Dante where DVS is latency and unreliable compared to the PCI-E accelerator cards. The absolute best solution for recording is thus a custom built windows desktop DAW or a Mac Pro. These aren't very portable thus thunderbolt multichannel interfaces, slower usb interfaces with onboard DSP mixers, and RME usb interfaces are very popular.
Marian Clara E PCI-E card has much lower latency for Dante than RME Digiface Dante, which has typical RME USB latencies, which are good at 44.1 and 48 kHz but not as good as the best PCI-E or Thunderbolt solutions.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 7, 2023 1:30:42 GMT -6
PCI-E card interfaces still have the lowest latency and best reliability. Especially for Dante where DVS is latency and unreliable compared to the PCI-E accelerator cards. The absolute best solution for recording is thus a custom built windows desktop DAW or a Mac Pro. These aren't very portable thus thunderbolt multichannel interfaces, slower usb interfaces with onboard DSP mixers, and RME usb interfaces are very popular. Marian Clara E PCI-E card has much lower latency for Dante than RME Digiface Dante, which has typical RME USB latencies, which are good at 44.1 and 48 kHz but not as good as the best PCI-E or Thunderbolt solutions. It’s ironic, after 18 years my RME HDSPe PCIe interface card is still class leading over the mass of USB TB solutions that have followed it. Not all progress is progress That said RME USB is very good and they get 101% efficiency out of the USB 2.0 protocol. |
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Post by allbuttonmode on Jul 7, 2023 3:36:39 GMT -6
What issues have you guys had with an external chassis? I've been running a Sonnet Echo Express III-D for 10 years now with no issue at all. I'm curious. A generally more glitchy system (slightly, not a huge issue) than when running cards inside the computer. More latency than when running cards inside the computer. Noisier than running inside a computer. YMMV, but that was my experience. I was happy to dump the expansion chassis.
I run a few things in an external chassis (Sonnet Echo III) over TB, among them a Lynx AES 16 PCI-E card. I have not noticed any added latency in comparison to when it was inside my old desktop computer. All my Lynx converters and cards run stable at buffer size 32.
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