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Post by jmoose on May 20, 2023 16:53:09 GMT -6
I don’t mix my own stuff. The mixes I get back sound a whole lot more pro than what I personally can do. That said, now that I am way better at tracking the gap between them while still very noticeable, is not as wide as they once were. Truth is we're always mixing. Everything is mixing. Picking & hanging mics... even something innocent like choosing one acoustic guitar over another? Grabbing a martin D18 over a 000 style? Swapping out a snare drum..? Picking one guitar amp over another? All mixing. The biggest thing I get, often, with home tooled projects is usually a lack of overall vision and clear intent. Pro cats tend to see/hear the end product in their heads & work towards that goal... sorta like an artist who's carving a sculpture. The final piece was always there in that chunk of wood or granite. They just had to carve the rest of it away. The home tool crowd, at least what comes through my shop? Often feels more like the results of experimentation... where they were tossing things at the wall and hoping to see what actually sticks. And whatever sticks? That ends up being the album. Often its sounds that don't have much of anything in common and don't naturally relate to each other. Maybe its overall "size" and EQ? Oddball dynamic relationships... questionable reverb choices... that sorta thing. Sometimes its easy to tell that people just can't hear things very well... Very long time ago, early in my career I sent an album to Lynn Fuston for mastering & that was one of his comments to me. That I couldn't hear things well. At the time, as a young greenhorn I kinda took it as a dig. Bunch o' years later I realized what he actually meant. And his point was that the monitoring & acoustic environment was covering a whole lotta information that I simply wasn't hearing & reacting to. Or at least, upon reaction not doing myself (and the artist) many favors. And he was dead nuts right. That album was mixed on a smackie 8 buss desk with who knows what monitors in an untreated room at the artists home studio... The typical smackie & ADAT rig of the time with zero outboard gear. Or at least none of the good stuff. Not that it stopped anyone! Today the gear is better. Way better. For less then the cost of that junk you could get an Apollo or even a basic focusrite scarlett that sounds way better... something you could actually make a record with. Yet the bad & questionable monitoring still persists. People working on tiny speakers or maybe headphones where stuff is flying past at 1100 feet per second and goes unnoticed. Well, mostly unnoticed. Mix translation is still not just a thing... its everything. And so the time to start working on that is before we arm tracks & hit record. Intent. There's either clear purpose or the sessions are going to turn into data collection. Well... I'm not really sure about this part or tone, I'll sort it out later at mix? Now your just burying yourself with options. |
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Post by gwlee7 on May 21, 2023 7:18:14 GMT -6
jmoose this makes so much sense. I have much more experience now with getting the sounds I want at the end to go into the DAW at the beginning.
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Post by mcirish on May 21, 2023 7:43:58 GMT -6
Jmoose, you have a real point about intent. I work with a lot of inexperienced songwriters and it's very hard to get them to see the bigger picture. They want to bring in their friends of dubious talent to play bass and drums. The ideas usually don't fit the music but it's hard to navigate that landmine without offending someone. I have two more session this week that will be dealing with that exact thing. The artist wants to call the shots but has no knowledge of what will work. Helping them learn is a new thing for me. I'm getting better but it's a struggle.
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Post by niklas1073 on May 21, 2023 8:43:53 GMT -6
jmoose touches so many valid points.
What you were saying about the tools at hand today vs yesterday. Anyone with a laptop and an interface is a producer. And as you say, the truth is that with those tools and some brains and basic knowledge you could be one and put out a hit.
And maybe because of this easy access to tools I hardly ever get to discuss tracking besides with a few friends who are producers and mixers, and on a forum like this. Mostly low budget music production is about the mixing, with the existing plugins and counting on the “mastering will make it great”.
While the tracking is maybe everything, and that is the part that is hard to execute cheap.. except maybe edm and singer songwriter possibly. An apollo twin and a decent mic will cut something nicely for sure… The tracking is also what requires some decent skills to actually design an outcome.
I have had trackings on the table where I have not been able to turn it into anything remotely desirable. You can only try to polish turd.
So maybe the question of amateur vs pro is quite a wide question and instead could be a bad vs great production chain where the weakest link will screw it all up.
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Post by antbar on May 21, 2023 10:06:05 GMT -6
We've moved into a new realm where the b/w world of pro vs amateur is pretty fuzzy. Someone starting out can order pretty decent gear online, set it up with the help of YT tutorials, where they can then also learn the basics of recording. They can hire someone on Soundbetter to take their song and improve the lyrics, re-write the tune, augment/enhance/correct the production. They hire somebody else to mix their EP, which is then mastered by LANDR and released via Distrokid. And quite possibly, it's not anything that sounds or feels amateur by the time it's released. The world is moving from the industry standard of Mix Magazine into the murky "anything goes as long as it's interesting..." underworld of Tape Op!
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Post by smashlord on May 21, 2023 13:08:57 GMT -6
A lot of what makes something "good" or "bad" is subjective. Lowend that causes extreme pumping could be listed as a tell tale sign of a "bad" mix but OTOH, I have also heard lowend pumping used creatively to great effect.
I think a good mix has good macro dynamics and amplifies the vibe of the track... whatever that may be.... and the processing used doesn't draw attention to itself in a unnatural way.... Lot's of compression or lots of ambient effects can sound awful or super cool, depending on how its done.
A pro mix, however, IMO starts with a pro arrangement. If the arrangement has dynamics and utlizes the frequency spectrum well, has nice handoffs rather than competing parts, alot of the work is already done. A sign of amateur producer is someone who tries to make things big all the time and those mixes are often the toughest ones to make feel exciting.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2023 13:31:48 GMT -6
A lot of what makes something "good" or "bad" is subjective. Lowend that causes extreme pumping could be listed as a tell tale sign of a "bad" mix but OTOH, I have also heard lowend pumping used creatively to great effect. I think a good mix has good macro dynamics and amplifies the vibe of the track... whatever that may be.... and the processing used doesn't draw attention to itself in a unnatural way.... Lot's of compression or lots of ambient effects can sound awful or super cool, depending on how its done. A pro mix, however, IMO starts with a pro arrangement. If the arrangement has dynamics and utlizes the frequency spectrum well, has nice handoffs rather than competing parts, alot of the work is already done. A sign of amateur producer is someone who tries to make things big all the time and those mixes are often the toughest ones to make feel exciting. is right. you can’t do a pro mix of something that’s already been messed up by the artist or the producer. Bad vision is better than no production vision but competently recorded like the band went to a normal studio that has some cool stuff but not the workhorse gear necessary to finish the job or get 90% of the way there in tracking a full band who needs deep control. I don’t mean lofi visions like an old hardcore, black metal, or shoegaze band. I mean totally misguided production decisions that the artist or producer insist on highlighted or keeping front and center. There’s nothing you, the recorder or mixer, can do except to minimize the damage in a semi-competent product or just go nuts and deliver a cool sounding product. Yes it is a product because someone not the artist and their friends is expected to buy or listen to it the moment you’re hired. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2023 13:53:17 GMT -6
There are issues that affect most bad mixes, both pro and non-pro, starting in the 2000s somewhere.
#1 is bad dynamic processing from the use of broken dynamics processors and antiquated designs unsuited to the task at hand. Most contemporary dynamics processors are designed to be distorted rather than solve problems. Many of these bad processors are heavily marketed and are used at all levels of the audio industry. Overmodulation and the sound of massive random (yes it is random from the side chains having essentially infinite distortion in many digital processors or far out of spec varimus) overshoots getting clipped off is common.
#2 is everything getting distorted so much that it’s fuzzed out, farting, or as Tunde from TV On the Radio put it in this month’s tape op for the moment when a mix gets worse, “it sounds like it’s wrapped in plastic.” The Saran-wrapped sound is all over pop and commercial rock and metal and sounds universally awful. Combine that with ill-suited lofi fx and percussion so modulated it sounds like muddy industrial music and it’s a hard sell. Yet go over to Reddit or gearspace and many will insist that this, which already sounds dated because pop apologists are totally out of touch with fast moving distortion trends, is good yet raw recordings are bad.
🤯🔫
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Post by jmoose on May 21, 2023 15:09:55 GMT -6
We've moved into a new realm where the b/w world of pro vs amateur is pretty fuzzy. Someone starting out can order pretty decent gear online, set it up with the help of YT tutorials, where they can then also learn the basics of recording. The line isn't fuzzy. Not at all from where I'm standing. The main difference between pro & non pro is simply time investment. Couple weeks ago I talked to a guy who was looking for production help... He'd basically hit a wall working on his own & needs outside guidance to finish things at a certain level of quality. From the outset, initial conversation he said time is limited. After work & family stuff he's got maybe 8 hours a week to pour into music. When asked about doing one song at a time I said you want to actually finish things yeah? The biggest problem was that I'm going to get my homework done & handed in immediately. He's got 8 hours a week? I'm putting in 8 hours a day. Some of y'all might remember Slipperman... aka Tim Gilles (RIP bud) who owned a multi million dollar, multi room facility and as you might imagine had an endless parade of interns on top of the regular staff. Once in a while there'd be a kid who came in and played something that really blew us away. It'd sound amazing and you did with that junk?? Why do you wanna be here?! And then... we'd find out they put 6 months and 1000 hours into the one song. And when faced with being in a pro room, in a pro situation with a ticking clock? The artist is here for 6 days... you've got 6 hours to mix this song to a reasonable, listenable standard? Hail Satan they couldn't get it done. Or as my other long lost pal John Siket once said, slow & steady or fast & confident. Yes indeed these days anyone with a decent line of credit can call Vintage King & order everything they need to make a record except one critical ingredient... knowing what your doing. That thing... knowing what your doing isn't available at any price. The cost of that is experience and most people, including myself are going to make a bunch of questionable records before the process becomes something of a second nature. |
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Post by jmoose on May 21, 2023 15:16:56 GMT -6
I have two more session this week that will be dealing with that exact thing. The artist wants to call the shots but has no knowledge of what will work. Helping them learn is a new thing for me. I'm getting better but it's a struggle. Times like that I think of Quint from Jaws... that scene where they're finally leaving the dock... Arrrgh its your charter but my vessel. I'm calling the shots here chief. Farewell & ado my poor Spanish ladies... Ultimately its their record but someone has to be in charge of the circus otherwise nothings going to get done. Of course, things didn't work out too well for Quint... |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2023 15:35:46 GMT -6
We've moved into a new realm where the b/w world of pro vs amateur is pretty fuzzy. Someone starting out can order pretty decent gear online, set it up with the help of YT tutorials, where they can then also learn the basics of recording. The line isn't fuzzy. Not at all from where I'm standing. The main difference between pro & non pro is simply time investment. Couple weeks ago I talked to a guy who was looking for production help... He'd basically hit a wall working on his own & needs outside guidance to finish things at a certain level of quality. From the outset, initial conversation he said time is limited. After work & family stuff he's got maybe 8 hours a week to pour into music. When asked about doing one song at a time I said you want to actually finish things yeah? The biggest problem was that I'm going to get my homework done & handed in immediately. He's got 8 hours a week? I'm putting in 8 hours a day. Some of y'all might remember Slipperman... aka Tim Gilles (RIP bud) who owned a multi million dollar, multi room facility and as you might imagine had an endless parade of interns on top of the regular staff. Once in a while there'd be a kid who came in and played something that really blew us away. It'd sound amazing and you did with that junk?? Why do you wanna be here?! And then... we'd find out they put 6 months and 1000 hours into the one song. And when faced with being in a pro room, in a pro situation with a ticking clock? The artist is here for 6 days... you've got 6 hours to mix this song to a reasonable, listenable standard? Hail Satan they couldn't get it done. Or as my other long lost pal John Siket once said, slow & steady or fast & confident. Yes indeed these days anyone with a decent line of credit can call Vintage King & order everything they need to make a record except one critical ingredient... knowing what your doing. That thing... knowing what your doing isn't available at any price. The cost of that is experience and most people, including myself are going to make a bunch of questionable records before the process becomes something of a second nature. I mean artists take years to do overdubs now. Then they hand it off to you and while the performance out of a million takes might be good and the song good, the recording is often messed up and their rough either sounds fake as hell or needs the power of god, someone who does this every day, to save it. So you sit down and after a couple of hours have a good working mix and it’s often not messed up in the way that the rough was because you, the engineer, knows how to record and mix, and they the artist knows how to play an instrument (we hope) and recorded (or not at all because This is 2023) the music in a method light years from their intended vision or lack of it. Then it’s time for the band infighting leading to endless pointless revisions until they run out of time or money because what they say they want is not what they want and you’re their relationship counselor. |
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Post by the other mark williams on May 21, 2023 18:09:32 GMT -6
I realize what I'm about to say is a bit different than the intent of the OP, but several things jmoose said in his first post resonated with me. More and more the thing that makes me think "pro" or "not pro" has little to do with the engineering, and has everything to do with the artist and the material he/she has written and/or performed. Nebraska is still one of my favorite Springsteen albums, and I've never once thought it was "not pro" sounding. Same with Sufjan Stevens's Carrie and Lowell. There are some artists I listen to and I just say, "damn, they know what they're doing," and when that's the case, a lot of other stuff just doesn't matter as much to me anymore. I have individual bugaboos, like I would honestly rather hear an acoustic guitar tracked with a '70s-era Realistic Radio Shack dynamic mic than plugged in direct from an under saddle transducer, but those are taste things. If the substance is there, it covers over a lot of sins. |
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Post by ericn on May 21, 2023 18:36:39 GMT -6
I realize what I'm about to say is a bit different than the intent of the OP, but several things jmoose said in his first post resonated with me. More and more the thing that makes me think "pro" or "not pro" has little to do with the engineering, and has everything to do with the artist and the material he/she has written and/or performed. Nebraska is still one of my favorite Springsteen albums, and I've never once thought it was "not pro" sounding. Same with Sufjan Stevens's Carrie and Lowell. There are some artists I listen to and I just say, "damn, they know what they're doing," and when that's the case, a lot of other stuff just doesn't matter as much to me anymore. I have individual bugaboos, like I would honestly rather hear an acoustic guitar tracked with a '70s-era Realistic Radio Shack dynamic mic than plugged in direct from an under saddle transducer, but those are taste things. If the substance is there, it covers over a lot of sins. Absolutely, but Mark a lot of that has to do with the producer. I’m noticing artists I respect who are self producing just don’t have that “ sound” anymore. That second set of ears brings so much to the table. |
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Post by seawell on May 21, 2023 19:17:16 GMT -6
I realize what I'm about to say is a bit different than the intent of the OP, but several things jmoose said in his first post resonated with me. More and more the thing that makes me think "pro" or "not pro" has little to do with the engineering, and has everything to do with the artist and the material he/she has written and/or performed. Nebraska is still one of my favorite Springsteen albums, and I've never once thought it was "not pro" sounding. Same with Sufjan Stevens's Carrie and Lowell. There are some artists I listen to and I just say, "damn, they know what they're doing," and when that's the case, a lot of other stuff just doesn't matter as much to me anymore. I have individual bugaboos, like I would honestly rather hear an acoustic guitar tracked with a '70s-era Realistic Radio Shack dynamic mic than plugged in direct from an under saddle transducer, but those are taste things. If the substance is there, it covers over a lot of sins. Absolutely, but Mark a lot of that has to do with the producer. I’m noticing artists I respect who are self producing just don’t have that “ sound” anymore. That second set of ears brings so much to the table. Very true. I just listened to a band yesterday that I previously really liked their first 2 albums. I just caught an interview where they were discussing the freedom of their new album being the first after their record deal expired. Excitedly, I went to listen…YIKES 🙉 |
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Post by the other mark williams on May 21, 2023 19:46:39 GMT -6
I realize what I'm about to say is a bit different than the intent of the OP, but several things jmoose said in his first post resonated with me. More and more the thing that makes me think "pro" or "not pro" has little to do with the engineering, and has everything to do with the artist and the material he/she has written and/or performed. Nebraska is still one of my favorite Springsteen albums, and I've never once thought it was "not pro" sounding. Same with Sufjan Stevens's Carrie and Lowell. There are some artists I listen to and I just say, "damn, they know what they're doing," and when that's the case, a lot of other stuff just doesn't matter as much to me anymore. I have individual bugaboos, like I would honestly rather hear an acoustic guitar tracked with a '70s-era Realistic Radio Shack dynamic mic than plugged in direct from an under saddle transducer, but those are taste things. If the substance is there, it covers over a lot of sins. Absolutely, but Mark a lot of that has to do with the producer. I’m noticing artists I respect who are self producing just don’t have that “ sound” anymore. That second set of ears brings so much to the table. Totally fair -- it's very, very hard to self-produce. It's not like Bruce expected the Nebraska sessions to end up as an album when he was recording it: They were supposed to be demos. They just couldn't beat the soul of the demos when they went to track with the full band. And Sufjan is a very unique artist, and on that album was dealing with intense personal pain that is particularly well-suited to the production style of that album. Anyway, my post was really just a long way to say, "when the music is amazing, I don't care about the engineering as much." I remember Wes Lachot telling me 25 yrs ago that if you're choosing to only like music that's recorded and mixed well, you're going to end up not listening to very much music. That still seems true to me. |
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Post by ericn on May 21, 2023 20:31:09 GMT -6
Absolutely, but Mark a lot of that has to do with the producer. I’m noticing artists I respect who are self producing just don’t have that “ sound” anymore. That second set of ears brings so much to the table. Totally fair -- it's very, very hard to self-produce. It's not like Bruce expected the Nebraska sessions to end up as an album when he was recording it: They were supposed to be demos. They just couldn't beat the soul of the demos when they went to track with the full band. And Sufjan is a very unique artist, and on that album was dealing with intense personal pain that is particularly well-suited to the production style of that album. Anyway, my post was really just a long way to say, "when the music is amazing, I don't care about the engineering as much." I remember Wes Lachot telling me 25 yrs ago that if you're choosing to only like music that's recorded and mixed well, you're going to end up not listening to very much music. That still seems true to me. Definitely, there is so much music that sonically makes me want to tear my hair out but is musically enjoyable, and just as much that is sonically enjoyable but either the performance and / or the song is terrible. It’s audio Goldilocks I tell you. |
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Post by thehightenor on May 22, 2023 5:04:31 GMT -6
I don’t mix my own stuff. The mixes I get back sound a whole lot more pro than what I personally can do. That said, now that I am way better at tracking the gap between them while still very noticeable, is not as wide as they once were. Truth is we're always mixing. Everything is mixing. Picking & hanging mics... even something innocent like choosing one acoustic guitar over another? Grabbing a martin D18 over a 000 style? Swapping out a snare drum..? Picking one guitar amp over another? All mixing. The biggest thing I get, often, with home tooled projects is usually a lack of overall vision and clear intent. Pro cats tend to see/hear the end product in their heads & work towards that goal... sorta like an artist who's carving a sculpture. The final piece was always there in that chunk of wood or granite. They just had to carve the rest of it away. The home tool crowd, at least what comes through my shop? Often feels more like the results of experimentation... where they were tossing things at the wall and hoping to see what actually sticks. And whatever sticks? That ends up being the album. Often its sounds that don't have much of anything in common and don't naturally relate to each other. Maybe its overall "size" and EQ? Oddball dynamic relationships... questionable reverb choices... that sorta thing. Sometimes its easy to tell that people just can't hear things very well... Very long time ago, early in my career I sent an album to Lynn Fuston for mastering & that was one of his comments to me. That I couldn't hear things well. At the time, as a young greenhorn I kinda took it as a dig. Bunch o' years later I realized what he actually meant. And his point was that the monitoring & acoustic environment was covering a whole lotta information that I simply wasn't hearing & reacting to. Or at least, upon reaction not doing myself (and the artist) many favors. And he was dead nuts right. That album was mixed on a smackie 8 buss desk with who knows what monitors in an untreated room at the artists home studio... The typical smackie & ADAT rig of the time with zero outboard gear. Or at least none of the good stuff. Not that it stopped anyone! Today the gear is better. Way better. For less then the cost of that junk you could get an Apollo or even a basic focusrite scarlett that sounds way better... something you could actually make a record with. Yet the bad & questionable monitoring still persists. People working on tiny speakers or maybe headphones where stuff is flying past at 1100 feet per second and goes unnoticed. Well, mostly unnoticed. Mix translation is still not just a thing... its everything. And so the time to start working on that is before we arm tracks & hit record. Intent. There's either clear purpose or the sessions are going to turn into data collection. Well... I'm not really sure about this part or tone, I'll sort it out later at mix? Now your just burying yourself with options. That’s it - you have to have a vision. When I finish writing a song I can hear it playing in my head as an arrangement and a certain sound and vibe. Imagination is an obvious aspect of art and literature, but developing aural imagination and imagery is just as important in music if not as immediately obvious. |
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Post by Ward on May 22, 2023 7:53:14 GMT -6
A production and ergo a mix is like 3000 piece jigsaw puzzle.
Over time you learn to fit all the pieces together and make it into a work of art.
It is this end result that inspires nearly all of us. Hearing one for the first time probably led all of us into this racket!
Compression, limiting, EQing, tuning, alignment etc are also pieces that go into that puzzle.
The most important pieces are arrangement and performances.
You cannot make up for the magic that comes from incredible performances
Hard work and talent t.rump turd polishing every single time.
JMHO
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Post by Quint on May 22, 2023 8:42:17 GMT -6
I have two more session this week that will be dealing with that exact thing. The artist wants to call the shots but has no knowledge of what will work. Helping them learn is a new thing for me. I'm getting better but it's a struggle. Times like that I think of Quint from Jaws... that scene where they're finally leaving the dock... Arrrgh its your charter but my vessel. I'm calling the shots here chief. Farewell & ado my poor Spanish ladies... Ultimately its their record but someone has to be in charge of the circus otherwise nothings going to get done. Of course, things didn't work out too well for Quint... Yes, I was eaten by a shark. |
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Post by gwlee7 on May 22, 2023 8:48:49 GMT -6
Yes, I was eaten by a shark.  Later Quint. |
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Post by Quint on May 22, 2023 9:30:31 GMT -6
Yes, I was eaten by a shark. Later Quint. But I got the last laugh...  |
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Post by antbar on May 22, 2023 9:52:49 GMT -6
There's talk of vision and of jigsaw puzzles here, each suggesting that a very specific result awaits at the finish line... I'm genuinely curious where/when any of us "see" that finished product? When does the first glimpse come into view? And how often are we surprised by a (satisfying) result we did not see coming? Does it ever turn out to be an image of a pumpkin and not the pastoral scene shown on the puzzle box?
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Post by Ward on May 22, 2023 10:07:10 GMT -6
Arrangement wise: The song often speaks for itself. You have to listen to the song. Let the song tell you what it wants. Then you start seeing the vision of the jigsaw puzzle!
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Post by drumsound on May 22, 2023 10:30:59 GMT -6
There's talk of vision and of jigsaw puzzles here, each suggesting that a very specific result awaits at the finish line... I'm genuinely curious where/when any of us "see" that finished product? When does the first glimpse come into view? And how often are we surprised by a (satisfying) result we did not see coming? Does it ever turn out to be an image of a pumpkin and not the pastoral scene shown on the puzzle box? I usually see it pretty early and work hard to guide to that place. Sometimes the artist comes up with something that I didn't expect and it makes me turn around but even then, I just see the refined vision and just take that turn and go. There are so many times I know what I want to have overdubbed within the first few listens of the song. I know the type of effects I'll be adding in the mix, and sometimes even the type of automation I'll need. Arrangement wise: The song often speaks for itself. You have to listen to the song. Let the song tell you what it wants. Then you start seeing the vision of the jigsaw puzzle! I often think in the terms of "what is the song telling me it needs?" |
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Post by svart on May 22, 2023 10:41:57 GMT -6
Can't say I agree with the notion that arrangement and songwriting can influence a good mix. I've heard plenty of good tunes with terrible mixes, and a lot of great mixes with terrible tunes.
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