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Post by schlep on May 19, 2023 10:05:55 GMT -6
Hi All -
Worth bantering about... what are the most common "tells" of what you consider a non-pro sounding mix (from the mix itself, or the tone/sound of certain instruments)? Techniques to avoid these faux pas would be a nice share as well.
While subjective, I believe we all hear mixes where you immediatly thing the production falls just a little short.
Craig
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Post by mcirish on May 19, 2023 10:18:50 GMT -6
For me, it's usually the sound of the room it was recorded in. It's pretty easy to tell when something is recorded in a bad space with inexpensive condenser mics. Also bad EQ and a general lack of knowledge on compressors. This is sort of a can of worms. Once you get to a certain level, you realize there are guys at even higher levels of mixing. I'm not sure we ever get to perfection. :-)
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,637
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Post by ericn on May 19, 2023 10:21:52 GMT -6
Listen to the lows, real rooms and monitors can handle them, bedrooms and desks top speakers can’t !
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Post by Tbone81 on May 19, 2023 10:25:19 GMT -6
Drums…bad drums or vst drums are a dead giveaway. Although I should say I’ve been fooled by vst drums before, they’ve gotten pretty damn good in some cases.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2023 11:00:00 GMT -6
Big label vs indie music ?Zero difference other than the label stuff sometimes paid for expensive distortion on the mix. The hyper commercial stuff is more likely to have a bad mix now than the indie mix. You know it will be bad just like a big budget movie nowadays.
Hired mixer music vs mixed by the artist? The mixed by someone not from Fiverr mix will have a low end hopefully, vocals will be edited of pops and clicks and de-essed, compressors will be do something positive instead of god knows what, the levels will be evened out, there will be automation and fader rides on the mix to not pump wildly and add excitement, and hopefully parts of it will sound good. The artist doing themselves unless they are Butch Vig or a killer golden age rap dj normally sounds messed up and usually not in a cool way.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 19, 2023 11:59:28 GMT -6
Crushing the two bus is always a giveaway
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Post by tkaitkai on May 19, 2023 12:10:53 GMT -6
For me, it's a hard thing to quantify.
Of course, when a mix absolutely sucks, it's always obvious. Off time, out of tune, terrible EQ balance, etc.
But it's pretty rare to come across horrendous mixes these days. I feel like most stuff I hear is at least passable in some sense, and it's like, who am I to say this isn't "pro"?
If I had to pick something that always sounds amateur to me, it would be misuse of reverb. Especially in sparse mixes — nothing cornier than an obnoxiously long plate on the lead vocal when it's just piano + vocal and the song doesn't call for it.
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Post by svart on May 19, 2023 12:11:52 GMT -6
Completely subjective..
For me, it's balance, more than anything. Amateur mixes always feel or sound off because something is not balanced in the mix. Sometimes it's conflicting things, sometimes it's things not loud enough or too loud. Sometimes the EQ is off or the compression is too much or too little.
It really depends on the material as well. I'd judge a rap song very differently than a rock song if you get what I mean.
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Post by bradd on May 19, 2023 12:30:39 GMT -6
I know from personal experience that on my first two albums, I had no understanding of phase on drums. Understanding how to ensure that drum mics were in phase took things to a better level.
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Post by christopher on May 19, 2023 16:07:26 GMT -6
Any song is a good song to anyone who is paying to record it. That can mean it’s outside of a certain production style that a person is comfortable with. A good pro will venture away from their comfort zone and do whatever the song will have a chance to land better with. If that means a listener criticizes a producer or engineer for “ruining” this great song, well they did their job, didn’t they? Would the fan rather it be “this sounds amazing but this artist/song/band is terrible” I think a lot of pros who are work for hire fall more in the latter
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2023 16:55:58 GMT -6
Crushing the two bus is always a giveaway Neither riding nor automating the faders into the bus compressor too. The pumping and ducking can get out of control. Uncontrolled fast fills and double kicks can even trigger the bus comp to flutter the whole mix like a bad tape deck.
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Post by gwlee7 on May 19, 2023 17:49:50 GMT -6
I don’t mix my own stuff. The mixes I get back sound a whole lot more pro than what I personally can do. That said, now that I am way better at tracking the gap between them while still very noticeable, is not as wide as they once were.
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Post by niklas1073 on May 19, 2023 18:31:19 GMT -6
I think bad productions often goes hand in hand with bad mixes. If you can’t afford or know or don’t understand the value of a good producer, you will likely also be ignorant regarding the mixing.
But in general I think amateurs can pull off a listenable mix today I suppose… to some extent. But I usually react on the low mids, where the body and fatness sits. A real pro can work with that area and make the mix full and huge while an amateur end up with boominess and a mess and end up scooping most life away from the mix due to that.
And as mentioned by others already, compressors, room and eq’s. Knowing what to use and why is a mystery for many amateurs i guess. A pro will be able to commit to a sound/production and be consequent about it, and you will hear when someone don’t know how to do it. In other words, everything can sound like its done right:ish, but the elements just don’t sit together.
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Post by drumsound on May 20, 2023 9:36:07 GMT -6
Drums and reverb are often telltale signs. I feel it's easier to tell that the tracking is the issue. Snare drum sounds usually are a dead giveaway that the tracking could have been better. It's either papery, ringy, or obviously replaced. Overheads done with crappy mics are always a dead giveaway, but that can be the drummer's technique. Reverb that's super obvious and often not the best reverb for the job. I'll admit bias here, I generally hate obvious reverb (except when I love it ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) Tons of midrange push on guitars that sound like icepicks to the forehead are often another sign. Bass level, too. It's either too much (bad room/small speakers) or barely there (bad room).
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Post by M57 on May 20, 2023 10:42:37 GMT -6
Crushing the two bus is always a giveaway Guilty amateur here. Most people would say my mixes sound pro, but I'm under no illusions; they wouldn't pass the smell test in these forums. I make sure my mixes LUF somewhere between -13 and -14 dBFS, but they just don't sound as open and clean, and don't seem to have the dynamic range of a pro mix. I don't doubt that its also a function of some of the other stuff folks are talking about here. I use pro equipment and have a well-treated space etc, but my lack of knowledge where it comes to the subtleties of compression, reverb and EQ are very likely part of it.
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Post by thehightenor on May 20, 2023 11:07:30 GMT -6
Drums…bad drums or vst drums are a dead giveaway. Although I should say I’ve been fooled by vst drums before, they’ve gotten pretty damn good in some cases. Horses for courses. A few years ago I was listening to a Sting album, lot's of drum done by the one and only Manu Katche and on one particular song I thought wow Manu sounds AMAZING on this track. A while later I was reading about the recording process only to discover it wasn't Manu Katche but drums fully programmed by Sting's then producer Kipper, using Stylus RMX .... would you believe! .... and I've been a pro drummer all my life (over 40 years) and it fooled me! So Rush with programmed drums .... er NO! That required the late, great Neil Peart pounding soul and super human energy into an acoustic kit with breathtaking musicianship. Context is everything.
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Post by thehightenor on May 20, 2023 11:13:26 GMT -6
Hi All - Worth bantering about... what are the most common "tells" of what you consider a non-pro sounding mix (from the mix itself, or the tone/sound of certain instruments)? Techniques to avoid these faux pas would be a nice share as well. While subjective, I believe we all hear mixes where you immediatly thing the production falls just a little short. Craig A biggy for me .... too much energy in the 500Hz zone, I hear that a lot. (made that mistake myself) Sloppy playing, sloppy tuning, sloppy pitching! (kinda goes without saying) but I hear that a lot! Too much reverb, too little reverb, too much delay, too little delay, too much compression, too little compression, too much EQ, too little EQ, too much room ambience, too little room ambience .... An endless list - you just gotta practice and of course ..... analytically listen.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 20, 2023 11:26:43 GMT -6
Crushing the two bus is always a giveaway Guilty amateur here. Most people would say my mixes sound pro, but I'm under no illusions; they wouldn't pass the smell test in these forums. I make sure my mixes LUF somewhere between -13 and -14 dBFS, but they just don't sound as open and clean, and don't seem to have the dynamic range of a pro mix. I don't doubt that its also a function of some of the other stuff folks are talking about here. I use pro equipment and have a well-treated space etc, but my lack of knowledge where it comes to the subtleties of compression, reverb and EQ are very likely part of it. Well, to be fair, most modern stuff is pretty crushed…maybe I’m saying people not knowing how to gain stage things and then when they try and get it loud, you hear the distortion.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 20, 2023 11:27:28 GMT -6
Drums…bad drums or vst drums are a dead giveaway. Although I should say I’ve been fooled by vst drums before, they’ve gotten pretty damn good in some cases. Horses for courses. A few years ago I was listening to a Sting album, lot's of drum done by the one and only Manu Katche and on one particular song I thought wow Manu sounds AMAZING on this track. A while later I was reading about the recording process only to discover it wasn't Manu Katche but drums fully programmed by Sting's then producer Kipper, using Stylus RMX .... would you believe! .... and I've been a pro drummer all my life (over 40 years) and it fooled me! So Rush with programmed drums .... er NO! That required the late, great Neil Peart pounding soul and super human energy into an acoustic kit with breathtaking musicianship. Context is everything. Love to hear that Sting song.
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Post by bgrotto on May 20, 2023 11:30:14 GMT -6
These days I hear less and less of what I would consider sloppy engineering, and more and more of what I would consider sloppy production. Bad performances, thoughtless arrangements, sloppy edits/tuning/timing. And those things make the biggest impact IMO as to how 'professional' the recording feels. Great performances of a tight and compelling arrangement will generally translate powerfully even through a mediocre mix.
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Post by thehightenor on May 20, 2023 11:31:29 GMT -6
Horses for courses. A few years ago I was listening to a Sting album, lot's of drum done by the one and only Manu Katche and on one particular song I thought wow Manu sounds AMAZING on this track. A while later I was reading about the recording process only to discover it wasn't Manu Katche but drums fully programmed by Sting's then producer Kipper, using Stylus RMX .... would you believe! .... and I've been a pro drummer all my life (over 40 years) and it fooled me! So Rush with programmed drums .... er NO! That required the late, great Neil Peart pounding soul and super human energy into an acoustic kit with breathtaking musicianship. Context is everything. Love to hear that Sting song. Ah but now you know it's programmed you'll all go .... "oh mate, you've got cloth ears it's obviously programmed and a crappy old drum sample set - what were you thinking (facepalm)" So I'm afraid on this occasion you'll just have to trust me when I say it fooled me :-)
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Post by christopher on May 20, 2023 11:49:42 GMT -6
Hi All - Worth bantering about... what are the most common "tells" of what you consider a non-pro sounding mix (from the mix itself, or the tone/sound of certain instruments)? Techniques to avoid these faux pas would be a nice share as well. While subjective, I believe we all hear mixes where you immediatly thing the production falls just a little short. Craig Reading your post a little closer I think I get it now. comment about 500hz is exactly right. 350-600 Hz is bad for everything except the few things that can go there. And even then you better be certain it works, because it will probably annoy somebody. Others could love it. Another thing that drove me crazy, artists using a booth and then being anti-reverb. They don’t know what room reverb is, they think everything is a hall, so they won’t consider it. Makes the processing work that much harder. Room mics can help so much in giving some meaty rms to the sound
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Post by notneeson on May 20, 2023 12:07:36 GMT -6
Drums and vocals typically stand out the most to me when they're under or overcooked. I mean, anything can be done poorly, don't get me wrong.
Just listened to an artist/friend's new single. The song is great, the vocal is killer but a little too up front for the genre and the drums are a tad "out of focus" I'd have blended in more compression and lifted the top on the OHs and snare just enough to bring things forward. Might sound minor, but to me those changes would have made a world of difference. And mind you, these drums were tracked in a real purpose built commercial room. But they still need some love.
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Post by thehightenor on May 20, 2023 13:13:21 GMT -6
These days I hear less and less of what I would consider sloppy engineering, and more and more of what I would consider sloppy production. Bad performances, thoughtless arrangements, sloppy edits/tuning/timing. And those things make the biggest impact IMO as to how 'professional' the recording feels. Great performances of a tight and compelling arrangement will generally translate powerfully even through a mediocre mix. Absolutely 100% agree! I totally pride myself on my arranging skills. Even rough mixes sound great when a song is beautifully crafted and skillfully arranged.
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Post by drumsound on May 20, 2023 16:48:07 GMT -6
Hi All - Worth bantering about... what are the most common "tells" of what you consider a non-pro sounding mix (from the mix itself, or the tone/sound of certain instruments)? Techniques to avoid these faux pas would be a nice share as well. While subjective, I believe we all hear mixes where you immediatly thing the production falls just a little short. Craig A biggy for me .... too much energy in the 500Hz zone, I hear that a lot. (made that mistake myself) Sloppy playing, sloppy tuning, sloppy pitching! (kinda goes without saying) but I hear that a lot! Too much reverb, too little reverb, too much delay, too little delay, too much compression, too little compression, too much EQ, too little EQ, too much room ambience, too little room ambience .... An endless list - you just gotta practice and of course ..... analytically listen. And sometimes you need to fuck it up to really learn how to not do that again.
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