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Post by christopher on Mar 23, 2023 15:21:35 GMT -6
I think the problem with music only quad/5.1/7.1/Immersive/ATMOS etc is that music is thought of by most people as coming for a specific point source, usually in front of us. Sure there's ambience around us, but the mind still focuses on the player or players in front of us. They are a unified ensemble that, even when listening to records, we imagine clumped nest to and behind one another. Even an orchestra, sure it's a pretty WIDE group, but they are all in front of you. ^this is what makes surround terrible imo. People use it as a gimmick to make you feel like the band is on stage in front of you, and you are under some mains overhead. A few minutes in you are thinking this place is dead, I need a drink. A better use would be mix from a band member’s perspective. Hear the other amps spread out, everyone in the discrete zones and bleed and reflections coming from all angles. There is really nothing like it |
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 23, 2023 15:47:30 GMT -6
Maybe it’s just me, but in a world where audio engineers are struggling to make money, I see this as another potential source of revenue. Be it from music, gaming, VR, film etc.
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Post by drbill on Mar 23, 2023 17:27:51 GMT -6
ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz........ Wake me up when it's over..... Wish I could get as much sleep as you're going to ;-) Michael - I love "surround" mixing and listening back to it, and (unlike the majority who tout atmos) have done a bunch of it - up to mixes 24 channels wide. I've been down this road several times on a wide variety of fronts - feature films, TV, Theme Parks (including several venues for one of the biggest and most expensive venues in the world), immersive specific venue's, surround music CD's, etc.. It's always driven by "tech" and money makers, and never driven by consumers. That's eventually a fail. Feel free to stay awake in a woke world and push the tech further. But IMO it's all empty words. I'll be at home, sleeping, and having peaceful dreams.  PS - I have a buddy who acoustically designs some of the most hi-tech and expensive rooms around the country. He is so sick of the term "immersive" that if you mention it to him, you're liable to have to duck quickly. LOL. It's a buzzword right now, but in his opinion, has no staying power in the vast majority of applications. Enjoy! |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 23, 2023 17:38:23 GMT -6
I've seen so many articles about studios converting an Atmos system. This is clearly to attract business for movie soundtracks. It occurs to me that it would require people to go to the theater to hear this properly. I'm not sure I'll ever go to see a movie in a theater again. I have a great sound system, a 65" TV and a projector. I can enjoy a movie without anyone disturbing me. Last time I went to a theater I felt my chair rocking. For a second I thought it was one of those devices that simulates movement in time to the action on the screen, but no, some dumb fuck had his feet on the back of my chair and was nervously pushing it forward and back. I turned around and told the guy "you gotta be kidding me". He gave me some pushback before removing his feet. For the entire movie, I was uncomfortable knowing that asshole was right behind me and could do anything to me before I could see it coming. There were no other seats available, and I liked where I was seated anyway. That's just one of dozens of similar experiences. Cell phones lighting up the dark room. non-stop chatting, people yelling out spoilers, fights and arguments, knees in the back of my chair, someone crunching nachos during quiet scenes, the endless wrapper removal, and there's still the possibility of covid. I'd need a boatload of speakers to do Atmos at home though, so it seems like it's only for rich folks or theatergoers. I see there's an Atmos headset that can be used, but I don't prefer to have a headset on for two hours when I've already had them on for work. This is once again a classic response to this tech without understanding it, or even trying to really it would appear. You do not need a boat load of speakers. You do not need a theater. You need.....heaphones. That's it. More speakers is nice but you could also get a sound bar that's atmos enabled. Or any of the other multitude of devices that support it and play it back. Hell most new cars have atmos systems. Don't knock it until you try it. Immersive is way more fun than stereo could ever be... |
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Post by sam on Mar 23, 2023 17:41:28 GMT -6
I have heard some incredible ATMOS mixes (Hello Harry Styles record!!) but I was also sitting in Sweetwater's ATMOS room. I would not want to hear that in AirPods. And the stereo collapse when you're set to ATMOS isn't the same as the stereo mix, so imagine nailing the stereo mix only to have your collapsed version be the one most people are listening to.
Also, the fear of stereo losing its importance seems nuts to me considering vinyl has outsold any physical format for the first time in over 30 years. Vinyl will never be in ATMOS. All I can think is that Apple is trying to retake a market with this "old isn't new, new is new" push.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 23, 2023 17:45:02 GMT -6
I seriously doubt stereo is going anywhere. The entire industry is setup and running that way. This isn't going to stop that in the short term or even the long term.
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Post by drbill on Mar 23, 2023 17:54:44 GMT -6
You need.....heaphones. That's it. Oh, you need one more thing.... A REASON to mix on headphones. LOL. I know a bunch of people do it. I've never heard the headphone set yet that comes even remotely close to a medium grade studio monitor in a remotely close room. YMMV. Having headphones on for mixing all day long is a nightmare I'm not willing to embrace. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 23, 2023 18:21:14 GMT -6
You need.....heaphones. That's it. Oh, you need one more thing.... A REASON to mix on headphones. LOL. I know a bunch of people do it. I've never heard the headphone set yet that comes even remotely close to a medium grade studio monitor in a remotely close room. YMMV. Having headphones on for mixing all day long is a nightmare I'm not willing to embrace. I mean you can do it on speakers too. Just check with your headphones. Which I'd bet money just about everyone does that anyways without much thought. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 23, 2023 21:12:03 GMT -6
Blackdawg said, "This is once again a classic response to this tech without understanding it, or even trying to really it would appear".
You're right, I haven't read or researched anything yet about Atmos, there's no need to be snarky about it though. Over time I typically do a lot of research about things like this, but at the moment, I haven't cared enough about Atmos to look into it. I will at some point of course.
If you had thought about the last line of my post, you would see I loath the idea of wearing headphones for hours. My ears get sweaty, sometimes I get a rash behind my ears after prolonged use, and occasionally some ringing. I only use headphones to check a mix or for listening late at night for 20 minutes.
So if I was interested in Atmos, I'd need a bigger room and a boatload of speakers. I was deep into Home Theater 20 + years ago. I had 5 B&W speakers with Two REL subs and high end components with a projector. This was in my living room. Perhaps if I had a separate home theater room it would make sense, but I sold it all and use my stereo for watching movies now. I'm quite happy that way, but if someone likes having a huge speaker array for home theater or Atmos, more power to you.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Mar 23, 2023 21:25:34 GMT -6
Real, ass-kicking rock and hardcore hip-hop are often best in almost (or totally) mono. The Sonics, Raw Power, or AC/DC would be a joke in anything that spreads the sound more than intended.
Video games or some spacey psychedelic stuff, maybe I can see the point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 21:46:38 GMT -6
Maybe it’s just me, but in a world where audio engineers are struggling to make money, I see this as another potential source of revenue. Be it from music, gaming, VR, film etc. Well that's what it boils down to really, everyone was adamant that VR & AR in games would flourish until the novelty wore off but a lot of people made good money out of it. Tech is an ever shifting paradigm and as someone whose made a career out of it I've seen a lot of things rise and fall. But, it really doesn't matter if one adapts and takes advantage so if Apple wants to push Atmos so be it. They have a much greater capacity for marketing than we do and for a while at least it could create some new cash flows in the industry.
Or in a few years time Atmos will have completely failed and we'll be on to the next thing, tech lives or dies on the premise of user adaption. Unless you're already inundated with work though I'd probably just use headphones for now. The outlay for an Atmos speaker setup can be rather pricey..
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Post by jacobamerritt on Mar 23, 2023 22:09:12 GMT -6
You need.....heaphones. That's it. More speakers is nice but you could also get a sound bar that's atmos enabled. Or any of the other multitude of devices that support it and play it back. Hell most new cars have atmos systems. Don't knock it until you try it. Immersive is way more fun than stereo could ever be... As Martin already reiterated above - yeah, headphones are the problem for lots of folks - or an indifference at best. Music/audio geeks and soccer moms on the treadmill alike. I am an audio professional and use headphones maybe 25 times a year. The average consumer couldn't care less about an 'immersive dimensional experience' while listening to Harry Styles or Rihanna or The Eagles on their bus ride home, or while jogging the neighborhood, or filling orders at the Amazon warehouse. Obviously we each have our personal preferences. You might think 'immersive' is more fun. I don't, from my listening experiences anyway. |
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Post by christopher on Mar 23, 2023 22:33:02 GMT -6
Since I mentioned Jeff Beck a few hours ago, I’ll steal this thread to mention this..
My daughter, who is in middle school -asked if we could watch the movie Twins tonite. I haven’t seen it this century, so sure! Always cool when youngsters dig the old stuff.
Well holy crap, there’s a scene where Arnold dances with a girl for the first time, to a no name house band. And the guitarist is Jeff Beck! Haha..
That means you need to check out Jeff’s mix with George Martin as producer, mixed in Quad, now audible in airpod pros because thank you ATMOS.
That’s how that record was designed to be heard.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 24, 2023 0:02:40 GMT -6
My thoughts are that Apple is driving this because they are lagging behind Spotify. They were the first big player to the table with lossless and now another shiny bauble: ATMOS. For me, in terms of the music that I work on, it’s a solution in search of a problem. I’ve listened to some of the best ATMOS mixes in the absolute top rooms in the world (Capitol, Blackbird C etc) with the A list mixer right in the room….it was impressive but ultimately, a novelty. Bottom line: if you stand to financially benefit from ATMOS, you have a very high likelihood of being in favor of mass ATMOS adoption. That theory has been validated in every conversation or experience I’ve had with ATMOS and its advocates. If you’re like me and the artists I work with, you don’t give two s**ts about distracting immersive experiences. If you’re Taylor Swift level or heck, anyone who is fighting for success in the “music industry”, I know you’re hearing about ATMOS mixes non-stop. I suppose I’m just getting old. Man, you are dead on. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 24, 2023 0:09:14 GMT -6
I think drumsound nailed it for me…music wise - hearing an electric guitar behind my left ear above the blah blah is not realistic. It’s completely gimmicky to me. Maybe I’m old man yelling at clouds…but I think the more likely scenario in our increasingly AI/automated world is going to be human experiences. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 24, 2023 1:26:13 GMT -6
If this takes off and sticks.
By that I mean, we are all sat at home mixing as we all do now in stereo but on properly implemented Atmos systems because we feel we have to, because there’s no choice if you want to release your music.
I’ll eat my hat.
I cannot see it happening
Though of course everyone from gear manufacturers like UA to music providers who want to make money from it as a format will have you believe you have to have it or you’re “not in the game”
I’ve seen and heard it all before.
We have two ears (and two eyes - there is a visual element to aural experience) and listening to music in stereo (heck most PA’s are mono!) is imho our natural experience and enjoyment.
I got rid of my film surround system and went back to normal stereo, the novelty of a truck driving past behind me my wore off pretty quickly and I started to find it distracting.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Mar 24, 2023 3:12:43 GMT -6
How great wouldn't it be if this was the catalyst for a shitload of producers, audio engineers and artists getting so pissed off, they downright refuse to bow down to Apple and the spawn of Satan that is Spotify.
Instead, release stuff on Bandcamp, Soundcloud and stereo-friendly streaming services only. Creating a new punk'ish movement, if you will.
Please, let me have this fantasy. No need to point out the glaring holes in my utopian vision.
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Post by lowlou on Mar 24, 2023 4:49:44 GMT -6
F*** Apple !
(This message has been written from my iPhone)
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Post by EmRR on Mar 24, 2023 6:48:59 GMT -6
Reading between the lines, the hole I see relates to “no mastering” and “stereo fold down”. Dunno what I’m talking about, but that suggests it’s impossible for the stereo to sound like the stereo we expect today. Elsewhere there’s mention of separate embedded mixes, which suggests a potentially confusing experience moving from one to another.
I’m still on the other end trying to get clients to finish a mix, not release a rough mix from an upconverted mp3, etc.
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Post by spindrift on Mar 24, 2023 6:50:20 GMT -6
F*** Apple ! (This message has been written from my iPhone) Apple is a huge company and while I don’t like what they’re doing with ATMOS, I’m still a pretty big fan of most of their other efforts. |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Mar 24, 2023 8:58:51 GMT -6
OK, so I'll chime in here.
Just a few weeks ago, I had a listening session at Blackbirds Studio "C" with Mark Rubel.
He played all the songs that everyone is high about right now, in "ATMOS".
Beautiful room, amazing monitors
Yeah it was cool, but ground breaking?
Breathtaking?
Please.
I've done a few ATMOS mixes for clients and in a nutshell, I feel certain types of music can benefit from this.
But that said,
Not enough to really make a difference to anyone but those who are actively seeking this type of thing out.
The general population, wouldn't even notice, or care.
Also, the rendering, stereo fold down / mix thing, at least at the moment, doesn't sound like the stereo mix I made, which for me was better in every way.
Especially for Pop, and Rock, the stereo mixes were always punchier, and more visceral, I felt like they had much more energy, and emotion, then the
ATMOS rendered mixes!
But who knows, maybe it's me.
I feel exactly like most of you do....
For movies, and maybe certain types of music presentations this could be cool...
But I know I'm not one who they are marketing this towards, I still watch TV with whatever speakers came with the TV...
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 24, 2023 9:05:31 GMT -6
F*** Apple ! (This message has been written from my iPhone)  |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 24, 2023 9:08:55 GMT -6
OK, so I'll chime in here. Just a few weeks ago, I had a listening session at Blackbirds Studio "C" with Mark Rubel. He played all the songs that everyone is high about right now, in "ATMOS". Beautiful room, amazing monitors Yeah it was cool, but ground breaking? Breathtaking? Please. I've done a few ATMOS mixes for clients and in a nutshell, I feel certain types of music can benefit from this. But that said, Not enough to really make a difference to anyone but those who are actively seeking this type of thing out. The general population, wouldn't even notice, or care. Also, the rendering, stereo fold down / mix thing, at least at the moment, doesn't sound like the stereo mix I made, which for me was better in every way. Especially for Pop, and Rock, the stereo mixes were always punchier, and more visceral, I felt like they had much more energy, and emotion, then the ATMOS rendered mixes! But who knows, maybe it's me. I feel exactly like most of you do.... For movies, and maybe certain types of music presentations this could be cool... But I know I'm not one who they are marketing this towards, I still watch TV with whatever speakers came with the TV... This is the point, I keep reading ..... "I was in this million dollar studio with a stunning $50K ATMOS rig and it was breath taking" I'm sure it was - can we all go sit in there and enjoy ATMOS - maybe they can open it up at the weekend for listening parties? Because I'll tell you - it sure a f**k isn't breathing taking on my wife's ATMOS "ready" Alexa Studio! |
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Post by bgrotto on Mar 24, 2023 10:51:38 GMT -6
I had a recent opportunity to mix a track in Atmos. Or rather, open up the PT session for a track I'd mixed in stereo, and do an Atmos version. It was super fun. Didn't find much use for whiz-bang shit flying all around the room, but sneaking the OHs and lead vocals up vertically a little, and sending some ambience to the rears, putting bass in the center, and having a *little* fun with some paddy synth layers as objects was a real pleasure. Managed to get some really good separation quite easily (almost too easily! kinda like stereo vs mono), and obviously the sense of depth was much greater.
There *were* some issues with the fold-down from speakers in surround to binaural stereo headphones. There were elements that were MUCH louder in stereo, and finding a balance between "real" surround and headphone stereo was rough. It was reminiscent of issues I struggled with early in my mixing days trying to get a mono translation of a stereo mix, but much, much more exaggerated. I don't know how much of this comes down to user error/inexperience, inadequacies in the rendering process, or simply the limitations of the format itself (I reckon it was a combination of all of the above), but it was frustrating.
But on the whole, I really liked the result and it got me thinking quite a bit about doing more Atmos stuff in my work. Unlike some users here, I've certainly had clients ask about it. It's on people's radar, for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2023 11:32:50 GMT -6
There’s a derth of good surround bus processing, compression, and surround reverbs.
Sound Radix Powair just won a bus compressor shootout on a mix with high gain guitars and tape saturation. I would hate to have to do a surround mix down from stems with something sonically suboptimal. Or have the surround version be just be stems printed from the stereo bus panned around like early mono mixes converted to stereo.
For cool unrealistic reverbs itb, only Liquid Sonics Tai Chi, HD Cart, and Izotope Exponential Audio Symphony have surround support. Those plugins are on their second owners, not that weird, and nobody is bothering to program any more. Even weirder non-linear reverbs are a big part of the genres of music I am hired to work on. They could be even cooler in surround setups but the tools to do it mostly do not exist.
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