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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 9, 2023 13:37:20 GMT -6
Don't know any listeners turning off normalization. But again, maybe I'm just ignorant.  I think the younger the listener the more likely they are to turn off normalization. And then there are all the non-normalized places that I listed in my post above. Interesting that your clients are liking -14. There are times when I'd like to have that freedom, though usually I find the sweet spot between dynamics and density lands a few dB higher. |
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Post by theshea on Mar 9, 2023 13:56:05 GMT -6
i admit it: for me personally -14 LUFS would be too quiet as well. obviously it depends on genre. but generally i like my rock/alternative music to punch a bit more above -14 LUFS. i like me some energy.
but on the other side if its to much its to much for me too. i get tired of the -4/5/6 LUFS aggressiveness pretty soon after 1/2 songs. thats simply too much for my ears. the inner song dynamics from verse to chorus should be intact and working.
but its my personally listening evolution, from the 80‘s to today ;-)
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Post by jmoose on Mar 9, 2023 16:32:34 GMT -6
I don’t mean to cast aspersions, but if you’re solely judging an ME’s work in your own control room, you’re just reinforcing the idiosyncrasies of your room. E.G. if your room is too bright, you will tend to mix dark, and the mastered version will sound too bright. I know most of you know this, but I have found a perplexing amount of people out there are judging mixes and masters in some supremely terrible listening environments. It’s a bit of a pet peeve. And herein lies the whole problem with "self mastering" - We're probably stuck doing it in the same room we just recorded & mixed in. So we're most likely doubling down on existing problems. Because we can't hear them. Whatever problems exist in the room like a big null at 75Hz & midrange flutter echo? We're probably not compensating and certainly not compensating enough. The only way to really get anything worthwhile done, IMO is to have a separate room & self contained rig. And for most people including myself that's not really feasible. Mostly because I think to some degree, whatever "mastering rig" is in that second room? The resolution needs to be at least as good, if not better then whatever's in the main room. Like I've tried putting a laptop and some $400 JBL's in another space and ya know? It sucked. Its a reference point sure but so's a TV soundbar. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 17:23:03 GMT -6
I don’t mean to cast aspersions, but if you’re solely judging an ME’s work in your own control room, you’re just reinforcing the idiosyncrasies of your room. E.G. if your room is too bright, you will tend to mix dark, and the mastered version will sound too bright. I know most of you know this, but I have found a perplexing amount of people out there are judging mixes and masters in some supremely terrible listening environments. It’s a bit of a pet peeve. And herein lies the whole problem with "self mastering" - We're probably stuck doing it in the same room we just recorded & mixed in. So we're most likely doubling down on existing problems. Because we can't hear them. Whatever problems exist in the room like a big null at 75Hz & midrange flutter echo? We're probably not compensating and certainly not compensating enough. The only way to really get anything worthwhile done, IMO is to have a separate room & self contained rig. And for most people including myself that's not really feasible. Mostly because I think to some degree, whatever "mastering rig" is in that second room? The resolution needs to be at least as good, if not better then whatever's in the main room. Like I've tried putting a laptop and some $400 JBL's in another space and ya know? It sucked. Its a reference point sure but so's a TV soundbar. also ime the best monitors for mix down translation (auratone 5c, yamaha ns10m and the discontinued msp line, fostex 6301 both new and old, proac 100, krk 6000 and only the 6000, jbl 305 II without the vibrating baffle/705p & 708p with individual calibration in the speakers and not just putting the crossover on the external crown amps) aren't really that suitable for mastering. they don't have the bandwidth and too many mixes sound like absolute crap on them (because they are crap) to the point where you want to suggest a remix of something the artist is happy with. they also translate because you're working against some aspect of the speaker. a lot of the 3 way mastering systems (and more detailed two way system) similarly aren't great mix down speakers because they're so detailed that weird balances just sound fine or even good on them (the usual great for eq, bad for levels situation) but they're awesome for big picture work and the detail helps to universalize the tone and huge headroom, normalize the levels.
now the internet is big on complex crossover crap but usually the detail isn't there from 1 or more of the drivers and the speaker is tuned to be flat in the crossover with low headroom so it's suboptimal for everything, ie the typical dsp speaker situation making something that's good but not great to listen to but horrible for getting work done on. the detail isn't good because they always cheap out on the converters, amps, drivers, and line stages on the dsp speakers. what's in them would be considered a joke in a hifi power amp or pre amp because it is a joke and the system just sounds okay as a whole. with the jbl lsr monitors, the electronics are why they're so fragile.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 9, 2023 19:30:19 GMT -6
Won't add much more because to me it's a pretty obvious benefit to have someone else finish your mixes/record. But got our first-pass mastering back today and I wouldn't do it any other way. And we have pretty much no revisions to ask for. What the engineer did with the record blew our minds.
Different environment, monitors, expertise... it all adds up into a finished product that honestly has moved me immensely today.
Again, if you are that moved by your mastering then totally go for it. There's nothing wrong with that at all. I just enjoy having someone else in a completely different world polish our songs off. And yes, cost a bit of dough, but it gets to a universe I can't completely do on my own. YMMV.
Edit: one more thing to add: the 10K hours thing. When you've mastered thousands of songs, maybe different genres, you can master a project and know based on experience how it's going to translate. IMHO if you self-master and it's amazing then you're lucky if you don't meet the experience bar. Rest my case.
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Post by donr on Mar 10, 2023 19:54:31 GMT -6
This mastering thread got me thinking to generate and post three clips from BOC's "The Symbol Remains" LP. Here's three versions of a clip from an album cut called "Edge of The World." The first is the final mix by Tom Lord-Alge. The mix was delivered with about .5dB of headroom from digital 0. I gained up the clip .6 dB so it barely tickles an L2 on the master fader at the loudest peaks. www.dropbox.com/s/00us1q4dag0sx74/Tom%27s%20Mix%20.mp3?dl=0The second is Ted Jensen's mastering of the same tune. When I first heard Ted's master of the LP I was astonished how loud it was. It was less than 8dB peak to RMS, but most the time its was 3-4dB. This file is always right up to the Master fader limiter but doesn't touch it. www.dropbox.com/s/wbxfnher07f8f8v/Ted%27s%20Master.mp3?dl=0The last is Tom's mix, run through another instance of L2, with me trying to get it as loud as Ted's master. I think I got it pretty close with L2, but it's not as clean, punchy, and open as Ted's. It doesn't touch 0dB on the master fader either. Also, trying to match Ted Jensen's master, I pushed L2 quite a bit harder than I'd ever had. I realized that for a given gain raise, you could tweak the attack and release so it still sounded plausibly musical. Although my finished settings weren't too far from the default. www.dropbox.com/s/zyf2rpzwd63pmf6/Tom%27s%20Mix%20w__L2.mp3?dl=0There's certainly something to be said for professional mastering! Thing is, if I turn up Tom's original mix to be as loud as the mastered mix is perceived, I'd rather listen to the un-mastered mix, it's quite a bit less claustrophobic. [listening to the clips on my MacBook instead of my studio now, the mastered version makes a lot more sense in a real world playback way.] |
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Post by theshea on Mar 12, 2023 2:50:15 GMT -6
This mastering thread got me thinking to generate and post three clips from BOC's "The Symbol Remains" LP. Here's three versions of a clip from an album cut called "Edge of The World." The first is the final mix by Tom Lord-Alge. The mix was delivered with about .5dB of headroom from digital 0. I gained up the clip .6 dB so it barely tickles an L2 on the master fader at the loudest peaks. www.dropbox.com/s/00us1q4dag0sx74/Tom%27s%20Mix%20.mp3?dl=0The second is Ted Jensen's mastering of the same tune. When I first heard Ted's master of the LP I was astonished how loud it was. It was less than 8dB peak to RMS, but most the time its was 3-4dB. This file is always right up to the Master fader limiter but doesn't touch it. www.dropbox.com/s/wbxfnher07f8f8v/Ted%27s%20Master.mp3?dl=0The last is Tom's mix, run through another instance of L2, with me trying to get it as loud as Ted's master. I think I got it pretty close with L2, but it's not as clean, punchy, and open as Ted's. It doesn't touch 0dB on the master fader either. Also, trying to match Ted Jensen's master, I pushed L2 quite a bit harder than I'd ever had. I realized that for a given gain raise, you could tweak the attack and release so it still sounded plausibly musical. Although my finished settings weren't too far from the default. www.dropbox.com/s/zyf2rpzwd63pmf6/Tom%27s%20Mix%20w__L2.mp3?dl=0There's certainly something to be said for professional mastering! Thing is, if I turn up Tom's original mix to be as loud as the mastered mix is perceived, I'd rather listen to the un-mastered mix, it's quite a bit less claustrophobic. [listening to the clips on my MacBook instead of my studio now, the mastered version makes a lot more sense in a real world playback way.] downloaded the files and checked them in my DAW. yes, the master is pretty loud but it still sounds good. though i personally aim just a bit lower loudness wise. the mix is very good off course so in my self-quick-attempt to master the mix i just made it louder, some low and hi boost, a "tiny tiny" bit of stereo widening and it sounded good enough (to me ;-) and yeah, on iphones or macbooks WITHOUTH phones, just listening to the loudspeakers everything could be clearly heard. |
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Post by theshea on Mar 12, 2023 2:52:36 GMT -6
I don’t mean to cast aspersions, but if you’re solely judging an ME’s work in your own control room, you’re just reinforcing the idiosyncrasies of your room. E.G. if your room is too bright, you will tend to mix dark, and the mastered version will sound too bright. I know most of you know this, but I have found a perplexing amount of people out there are judging mixes and masters in some supremely terrible listening environments. It’s a bit of a pet peeve. And herein lies the whole problem with "self mastering" - We're probably stuck doing it in the same room we just recorded & mixed in. So we're most likely doubling down on existing problems. Because we can't hear them. Whatever problems exist in the room like a big null at 75Hz & midrange flutter echo? We're probably not compensating and certainly not compensating enough. The only way to really get anything worthwhile done, IMO is to have a separate room & self contained rig. And for most people including myself that's not really feasible. Mostly because I think to some degree, whatever "mastering rig" is in that second room? The resolution needs to be at least as good, if not better then whatever's in the main room. Like I've tried putting a laptop and some $400 JBL's in another space and ya know? It sucked. Its a reference point sure but so's a TV soundbar. agree. the room and the monitors. thats the main thing. mixing and mastering in the same room and on the same monitors ain't ideal. so my personal solution – if i continue diy mastering - would be to find a second room with good speakers. do the mix in my room and than do the mastering in the second room of a friend. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2023 9:23:06 GMT -6
I don’t mean to cast aspersions, but if you’re solely judging an ME’s work in your own control room, you’re just reinforcing the idiosyncrasies of your room. E.G. if your room is too bright, you will tend to mix dark, and the mastered version will sound too bright. I know most of you know this, but I have found a perplexing amount of people out there are judging mixes and masters in some supremely terrible listening environments. It’s a bit of a pet peeve. And herein lies the whole problem with "self mastering" - We're probably stuck doing it in the same room we just recorded & mixed in. So we're most likely doubling down on existing problems. Because we can't hear them. Whatever problems exist in the room like a big null at 75Hz & midrange flutter echo? We're probably not compensating and certainly not compensating enough. The only way to really get anything worthwhile done, IMO is to have a separate room & self contained rig. And for most people including myself that's not really feasible. Mostly because I think to some degree, whatever "mastering rig" is in that second room? The resolution needs to be at least as good, if not better then whatever's in the main room. Like I've tried putting a laptop and some $400 JBL's in another space and ya know? It sucked. Its a reference point sure but so's a TV soundbar. Mixing headphones, room correction software etc. there are ways around it. I know room correction isn't going to solve every problem but you can at least extract enough data to fix issues in the physical domain. Soundbars, cheap monitors etc. are IMO only good for finding technical issues that might not show up on high headroom large tweeter mains.
What it comes down to is price and practicality, not everyone can afford 6K+'s worth of monitors plus the 5K's worth of treatment that proceeds it for said monitors to work as intended in the first place. Some can but they might be in a rental or something and the bigger issue (and cost) is trying to find a decent sized space with relatively high ceilings. It's less of a problem in some places but over here 8ft ceilings are pretty much standard.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing and reflecting back I'd have skipped buying cheap monitors (I'm talking $200 - $1000 range here) with "room kit" treatment when I was skint and just used my mixing headphones (like I did at some of the crappy mixing rooms I worked out of). I'm still quite impressed by my Beyer's, they're not as good as my Core 59's but they're a heck of a lot better than my old reflective room with "guess work" monitors. I'd happily mix / master on said Beyer's..
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Post by donr on Mar 12, 2023 10:31:29 GMT -6
Biggest problem I have with my home recordings is not anticipating playback systems with hyped top end. Then I realized I've overdone the highs on my mixes/master. Partly because I'm old and going deaf, and partly because I don't know enough to make elements bright without making them harsh. That's something that people like Tom Lord-Alge and Ted Jensen know how to do.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 12, 2023 16:48:34 GMT -6
And herein lies the whole problem with "self mastering" - We're probably stuck doing it in the same room we just recorded & mixed in. So we're most likely doubling down on existing problems. Because we can't hear them. Whatever problems exist in the room like a big null at 75Hz & midrange flutter echo? We're probably not compensating and certainly not compensating enough. The only way to really get anything worthwhile done, IMO is to have a separate room & self contained rig. And for most people including myself that's not really feasible. Mostly because I think to some degree, whatever "mastering rig" is in that second room? The resolution needs to be at least as good, if not better then whatever's in the main room. Like I've tried putting a laptop and some $400 JBL's in another space and ya know? It sucked. It’s a reference point sure but so's a TV soundbar. Mixing headphones, room correction software etc. there are ways around it. I know room correction isn't going to solve every problem but you can at least extract enough data to fix issues in the physical domain. Soundbars, cheap monitors etc. are IMO only good for finding technical issues that might not show up on high headroom large tweeter mains.
What it comes down to is price and practicality, not everyone can afford 6K+'s worth of monitors plus the 5K's worth of treatment that proceeds it for said monitors to work as intended in the first place. Some can but they might be in a rental or something and the bigger issue (and cost) is trying to find a decent sized space with relatively high ceilings. It's less of a problem in some places but over here 8ft ceilings are pretty much standard.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing and reflecting back I'd have skipped buying cheap monitors (I'm talking $200 - $1000 range here) with "room kit" treatment when I was skint and just used my mixing headphones (like I did at some of the crappy mixing rooms I worked out of). I'm still quite impressed by my Beyer's, they're not as good as my Core 59's but they're a heck of a lot better than my old reflective room with "guess work" monitors. I'd happily mix / master on said Beyer's..
No issue with what you’re saying but i personally don’t think that’s going to add up to a better master than I’d I send it to my trusted ME. And he’s reasonable, so why not? |
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Post by jmoose on Mar 14, 2023 18:47:26 GMT -6
Biggest problem I have with my home recordings is not anticipating playback systems with hyped top end. Then I realized I've overdone the highs on my mixes/master. Partly because I'm old and going deaf, and partly because I don't know enough to make elements bright without making them harsh. That's something that people like Tom Lord-Alge and Ted Jensen know how to do. Indeed... yeah. That whole "experience" thing. I got a master back last week and rejected it. From one of my regular guys too! Said nope. Keep digging. There is something to be said for listening in a "normal / crappy" environment which in this case is my little Sony desktop radio in the office with 4" speakers. By the 2 minute mark of the first song I wasn't happy. Spot checked a couple others. Yeah. No. Too flat. Too conservative. So I sent a note & a couple 3 references... I'm sure he heard it in about the same 90 seconds. Friday afternoon I open my email to find another cut. Ok! Way more aggressive. Probably too aggressive but I liked it! And so now I've got something that's probably worth listening to all the way through. Fired up the rig, listened on the Dynaudios and once I got past that initial "maxell moment" yeah. I still liked it. Sent the cut to the artist and my mastering guy seemed a little shocked? I figured they'd either love it or hate it and we had our answer pretty early the next day. Love it. Very happy! Needs a few tweaks and another pass to be sure... and its really just about at the edge for all of us, but the baseline is there and we have room to maneuver. So we'll sit on it, travel around & listen in a few places and then button it up. Call it an EP and hope that more then 13 people end up listening when its released. Relevant info here is that A) The overall process? When communication is clear and there's a vision? Why do it any other way? B) Realization that pass #1 being conservative? If I had self-mastered? Probably would've been about the same result. IE - not good enough. When we put on that cut for the first time? We're all looking for this. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 14, 2023 19:08:14 GMT -6
I wonder if your 13 folks are the same 13 interested in what I do. |
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Post by jmoose on Mar 14, 2023 19:09:57 GMT -6
i tried out some 50+ masterings engineers too. was always dissappointed, thats why i attempted diy mastering first time. i was particularly dissappointed by their non-communication: most did ignore my notes and just delivered mastered songs without comments. no comment about the mixes or the finished master. when i had recall notes again, they just performed them without saying a word. so that to me signals a quick turnaround workflow to cash in more in the same time … but i guess you have to pay the communication and go for 150+ ME. You went through 50+ different mastering cats? Seriously? Your gonna have to explain that one. I've been making records for 25 odd years. Basically stepped into a pro studio when I was 18 and there's no way, over 2+ decades that I've used 50 different mastering engineers. Its probably not even half that. My list right now is basically one hand. There's like 3 or 4 people who I really trust and they get at least 80% of the work. And really, its mostly just two. The others are there if & when someone has enough in the old budget tank. One of those guys is Brad Blackwood at Euphonic and I've been with him since 2003?! Back when he was at Ardent in Memphis, before Euphonic even existed. There's a lotta history there and I wish I could send him more work. Guys like him or Howie Weinberg have that extra bit of special sauce. Magic. They're chasing tone and it comes across in the results. At the same time, I can't draw any parallels between cost & communication. That aspect is random and, like a lot of other things in life really comes down the person on the other end of the line. Some people mesh. Some don't. Sometimes what we have is a failure to communicate... |
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Post by tkaitkai on Mar 14, 2023 21:52:36 GMT -6
I absolutely love a dedicated ME for important projects and am happy to pay higher rates for great work. Those guys’ work is definitely in another league entirely and I would never pretend my ITB stuff at home is anywhere near as good.
That said, I do tons of stuff that’s not as “precious” to me, and I have no issue mastering it myself. In fact, it’s kind of fun for me. I actually rely a little too heavily on my mastering FX chain sometimes. Sometimes I’ll get super fatigued when I’m deep in a mix, at which point I’m just like fuck it, time to master.
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Post by drbill on Mar 14, 2023 23:36:49 GMT -6
By the time I'm done mixing and get to the mastering stage, I'm not looking for "tone". I don't need magic tone-meister mastering engineers. I've got that "magic tone" already baked in. I'm looking for (if going outside) a second pair of ears, translation on the widest varieties of monitoring situations, and getting it to the proper levels. (Which for me as of the last year or two has been -14LUFS which is almost always simple to hit).
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Post by theshea on Mar 15, 2023 0:09:32 GMT -6
i tried out some 50+ masterings engineers too. was always dissappointed, thats why i attempted diy mastering first time. i was particularly dissappointed by their non-communication: most did ignore my notes and just delivered mastered songs without comments. no comment about the mixes or the finished master. when i had recall notes again, they just performed them without saying a word. so that to me signals a quick turnaround workflow to cash in more in the same time … but i guess you have to pay the communication and go for 150+ ME. You went through 50+ different mastering cats? Seriously? Your gonna have to explain that one. I've been making records for 25 odd years. Basically stepped into a pro studio when I was 18 and there's no way, over 2+ decades that I've used 50 different mastering engineers. Its probably not even half that. My list right now is basically one hand. There's like 3 or 4 people who I really trust and they get at least 80% of the work. And really, its mostly just two. The others are there if & when someone has enough in the old budget tank. One of those guys is Brad Blackwood at Euphonic and I've been with him since 2003?! Back when he was at Ardent in Memphis, before Euphonic even existed. There's a lotta history there and I wish I could send him more work. Guys like him or Howie Weinberg have that extra bit of special sauce. Magic. They're chasing tone and it comes across in the results. At the same time, I can't draw any parallels between cost & communication. That aspect is random and, like a lot of other things in life really comes down the person on the other end of the line. Some people mesh. Some don't. Sometimes what we have is a failure to communicate... haha no sorry. i did not explain myself very good. i meant ME that cost 50€ or more … |
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Post by jampa on Mar 15, 2023 3:41:05 GMT -6
This mastering thread got me thinking to generate and post three clips from BOC's "The Symbol Remains" LP. Here's three versions of a clip from an album cut called "Edge of The World." Thanks for sharing that. I like how the bass pops out in Ted's version. I don't think I could do that |
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Post by wiz on Mar 15, 2023 5:14:00 GMT -6
This mastering thread got me thinking to generate and post three clips from BOC's "The Symbol Remains" LP. Here's three versions of a clip from an album cut called "Edge of The World." The first is the final mix by Tom Lord-Alge. The mix was delivered with about .5dB of headroom from digital 0. I gained up the clip .6 dB so it barely tickles an L2 on the master fader at the loudest peaks. www.dropbox.com/s/00us1q4dag0sx74/Tom%27s%20Mix%20.mp3?dl=0The second is Ted Jensen's mastering of the same tune. When I first heard Ted's master of the LP I was astonished how loud it was. It was less than 8dB peak to RMS, but most the time its was 3-4dB. This file is always right up to the Master fader limiter but doesn't touch it. www.dropbox.com/s/wbxfnher07f8f8v/Ted%27s%20Master.mp3?dl=0The last is Tom's mix, run through another instance of L2, with me trying to get it as loud as Ted's master. I think I got it pretty close with L2, but it's not as clean, punchy, and open as Ted's. It doesn't touch 0dB on the master fader either. Also, trying to match Ted Jensen's master, I pushed L2 quite a bit harder than I'd ever had. I realized that for a given gain raise, you could tweak the attack and release so it still sounded plausibly musical. Although my finished settings weren't too far from the default. www.dropbox.com/s/zyf2rpzwd63pmf6/Tom%27s%20Mix%20w__L2.mp3?dl=0There's certainly something to be said for professional mastering! Thing is, if I turn up Tom's original mix to be as loud as the mastered mix is perceived, I'd rather listen to the un-mastered mix, it's quite a bit less claustrophobic. [listening to the clips on my MacBook instead of my studio now, the mastered version makes a lot more sense in a real world playback way.] I am away for a couple of weeks….seeing my daughter who is pregnant with my first grandchild!!!! Up in Darwin Northern Territory…. But I am really keen to listen to these when 8 get home. cheers Wiz |
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 15, 2023 6:30:49 GMT -6
[/quote]
haha no sorry. i did not explain myself very good. i meant ME that cost 50€ or more …[/quote]
Good save !
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 11:05:50 GMT -6
No issue with what you’re saying but i personally don’t think that’s going to add up to a better master than I’d I send it to my trusted ME. And he’s reasonable, so why not? I'll refactor as that was a quick reply before work. I never said there isn't a reason to push it over the fence, I'm a qualified EE and as part of that I can certify installations for a house but my local electrician will fit spotlights for $20.00 each. Believe me it ain't worth the time or hassle to do it myself, same with mastering and I have an acoustically designed room plus some very decent monitors but if I'm struggling, heck for $50.00 I will throw it over the fence without hesitation.
However there's examples outside of people's bubble, I've heard some people do awesome masters on headphones alone. There's 50 ways to approach this, so do what's best for you hence the "words", water is wet etc. retort because it's just a matter of YMMV. The issue with this industry is if you're a obsessive musician or engineer as many of those who frequent these forums tend to skimp on other things and dedicate fiscals towards your career or hobby.
A middle manager at a food chain can afford some ATC SCM 45's and the treatment to go along with it if they're willing to save a while and put stuff like cars or other things aside. It's definitely not a sign of wealth in many cases, it's just dedication and once you've spent that sort of money I've seen quite a few get trapped in a self progressive circle. Although the initial concerns of "doubling up" aren't really an issue if you are OCD enough about it.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 15, 2023 16:48:07 GMT -6
By the time I'm done mixing and get to the mastering stage, I'm not looking for "tone". I don't need magic tone-meister mastering engineers. I've got that "magic tone" already baked in. I'm looking for (if going outside) a second pair of ears, translation on the widest varieties of monitoring situations, and getting it to the proper levels. (Which for me as of the last year or two has been -14LUFS which is almost always simple to hit). Tone = translation. Nobody is cutting 100% flat masters there's always some differences between songs that need to be evened out. You know that. Anyone can add +2dB at 10kHz. But some have a certain style about it... I think that's a fair thing to say. So to me it becomes about making sure the energy of the music translates from the mix room to those outside playback environments. AKA consumer systems with far less detail. And sometimes even if we love the mixes as is, they need a slant or carve in one direction or another... Couple years ago I made a record in a shop that was unfamiliar to me. First time out. Nice room by any standard, working on a Neve desk w/ some big ass Genelecs in the soffits. We decided to be cowboys... track & mix there. We've got a long lockout & killer gear why not?! Figured if we walked out & didn't like the mixes no problem. I'll redo it from scratch in my shop & work until everyone's stoked. Left the studio and overall, we liked the mixes but a few areas were lacking. The bottom octaves for one thing weren't totally there... some deep Moog/synth stuff that wasn't as deep as we thought. Blame it on the mains! Listening on them a little too long & maybe a little too loud. That one went to Brad Blackwood & we asked if he could restore some of that, which he did & absolutely nailed. The master comes back and now sounds more like we remember it sounding. Mission accomplished? Last week the rejected pass was about the top end translating. Its aggressive music, it needed an aggressive master with more bite. The reference tracks I sent were Snoop Dogg & Ministry if that tells 'ya anything! Carve it more like these. And that's what we got back. Now when I listen to that on small cheap speakers I hear all the detail & bite in the vocals & programmed hi-hats that was there in the mix room. The "nearly flat" barely touched it thing we usually do? Didn't work for this music. Now, during mix revisions for that the artist & I talked about adding EQ across the 2 mix. My idea, I wasn't totally hearing the top as open as I'd have liked on my prints. And we decided against that move, keep running flat. Only thing on the main insert of the SSL was a Summit DCL-200. We figured, and again with the communication & vision that we've got a great mastering cat in his own Jeff Hedback room with great processing junk? We're gonna let him earn his money. From my end? I'm the one sitting there with 60-70 odd tracks of whack & trying to sort out that mess... Programmed drums. Real stuff. Loops. Giant crunchy guitars & tiny guitars. Glitched out vocals. Synths that go down to 30Hz yet have gnarly 3kHz bite. 20 second space reverbs. As a mix guy & producer I wanna get the blend as dialed as humanly possible and then yeah, hand it off to someone trusted to double check & assemble my work. And part of that involves chasing tone. I love the cats who chase tone. That matters to me. It usually matters to the artists I work with. Stuffs gotta sound good & feel good too. Like I said anyone can add +2dB but some? Some have more style. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 15, 2023 20:37:28 GMT -6
I'm not getting the "Tone = Translation" thing.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 15, 2023 22:01:00 GMT -6
I'm not getting the "Tone = Translation" thing. If 'ya go back a wee bit & listen to the examples donr put up it'll either hit you in 90 seconds... or it won't. To me its really obvious even on the tiny Sony office rig. YMMV? |
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Post by donr on Mar 15, 2023 22:22:06 GMT -6
I'm not getting the "Tone = Translation" thing. If 'ya go back a wee bit & listen to the examples donr put up it'll either hit you in 90 seconds... or it won't. To me its really obvious even on the tiny Sony office rig. YMMV? To my mind, it's like TLA knew what making his mix as loud as commercial music would do to the tonal balance of it. He steered us to Ted Jensen, and Ted has done a lot of his stuff. |
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