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Post by svart on Mar 7, 2023 8:27:43 GMT -6
for me, "mastering" my own mix just means I push the level a little more - or maybe i back it off less. our jobs are to make it sound as good as we can, no? what do you all "save" for mastering? Save for mastering? Heads, tails, crossfades, radio edits... gapping between songs...overall level adjustments & fine tuning EQ... PQ sheets & encoding..? Formatting of deliverables..? Vinyl & physical media vs streamiing & digital? It's not just about slamming through a limiter. Anyone can make it loud in 30 seconds that's low rent hobbiest stuff. Labels tend to want things formatted correctly. Level & EQ is a fraction of the work. I have a couple macros set up that delivers me rendered wavs in HD and CD quality as well as MP3. I always head/tail/fade my stuff in the mix. It's not something that requires another person to do.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 7, 2023 11:02:57 GMT -6
This what recall is for. Mix/master it, live with it, recall and tweak either the mix or the master if necessary until you're sure. Recall makes the fresh perspective problem go away. It takes more time, but you're saving money, so "mime is money" once again.
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Post by viciousbliss on Mar 7, 2023 16:43:05 GMT -6
Since I am self-taught and have had no idea what a finished mix should sound like, I've had to do a lot of experiments to see what can be done at the mastering stage. Obviously, there's a lot that hardware and real tape can do that plugins can't. So, little by little I've figured out things here and there that can make my stuff sound like finished tracks. I don't do the loudness war thing since I have never cared to learn how to do that and there's already thousands of people making loud masters throughout the world. Many engineers disagree with it but have to do what the clients and/or label want or go out of business. Plenty of mixes arrive brickwalled too from what I've heard.
I'm going to attempt to carve out my own niche and see what happens. For years I've participated in music forums where people were pointing out all the objective flaws in remasters of classic albums. It shouldn't be the case that some 1986 P33C pressing of a Kiss cd or the Karate Kid soundtrack is better than a master from 1997 or 2007. Or that the original Megaforce cd of Kill Em All is held up as the peak of sound for that album. But most all modern masters are compromised. Though I will say newer albums sound a lot better than stuff made 15 years ago. Speaking of 2008, has any album taken the title of worst master from Death Magnetic yet? My hope in 2008 was that Chinese Democracy having a DR10 rating or perhaps higher on some tracks might have led to some backing off of this loudness war stuff. With vinyl making a comeback, I wonder if anyone is sending dynamic mixes for them to be made out of. Previously I had read that vinyl made from brickwalled mixes was defeating the whole purpose.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 7, 2023 19:22:25 GMT -6
i'm not arguing against mastering here or saying it's pointless. all I'm saying if I'm supposed to be mixing and mastering a project - which happens fairly often - it is not all that different than mixing for me. It just means I maybe don't go so gentle on the levels. The overwhelming majority of projects that come through here go to dedicated mastering. Allowances are in the budget & contract from day one. Part of the whole package. For the most part its not even debatable and its never "a surprise" somewhere along the way. But sure, sometimes things roll through that need to be self-contained. There's no money, or even time for outside mastering. Some years ago I was doing a weekly kids music show. Hard, tight deadlines on that one. Budgets too. In cases like that, and even if I'm mixing ITB (which was most of that stuff) I'm still not really going to do anything purely for the sake of level. Mixes always get dragged back into a new session and sorted out, assembled & finalized there. On fresh turf. For the most part I find its incredibly easy to add level and krylon something later but once the ears get that old frizzle fry? Its pretty hard to back down. Louder is better. There aren't many hard rules but we all know that one. If I'm mixing w/ intent towards self-contained mastering I'm way more likely to jam some EQ across the 2-mix. That's probably about my only real change. Over the years I've sorta figured out my "house curve" is -2dB at 250Hz really wide and +2dB at 8kHz... also really wide. Do that, add brickwall to taste or until things crumble apart and call it a day. Just about everything else goes to new ears. The whole "we can't afford it" arguement doesn't hold water with me. You mean to tell me that a band doing a 4 song EP or batch of singles can't scrape together $200 for mastering? That's $50 a head. Most bands probably spent more on the bar tab at their last gig. For me that's the bare minimum and a fairly achievable target. What's really cool is sometimes, the overall picture we'll come in under budget and there's enough in the tank for a fancypants $250 a track mastering cat. Always love that. They just always seem to have that extra bit of magic sparkle dust. Or even better that leftover coin? If the artist & their camp is really hip? Goes towards promotion! Getting the music out there and into peoples earholes is never ever terrible. I get more excited about stuff like that then making an extra couple hundred bucks.
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 8, 2023 3:22:52 GMT -6
I mix and master as I produce. Works for me. Noone ever complained. +1 I do my own mastering as by the time I've finished a mix there's basically nothing left to do. I have excellent reference monitoring with perfect predictable translation. I've imbued all the magic, vibe and energy at the writing, arranging, tracking and mixing stages. I'm definitely not looking to add any "magic or tone" at the mastering stage. For me it's a purely technical process of topping and tailing, adding any necessary meta data then a touch of mastering compression and limiting if needed any any small corrective eq moves between songs (usually around 0.5dB .... 1dB would be a big move for me) just enough to balance tracks between themselves. If there's an issue then back to the mix I go - why on earth would I compromise and make corrections to a stereo file - makes no sense to me. I stopped sending out my mixes to mastering after I upgraded my gear to ATC monitoring, HEDD 192/Avocet converters and Thermionic Phoenix Mastering Plus bus compressor and The Switf tube EQ - plus I do have 40 years experience with pro audio, so decades of experience do help a bit. I prefer my approach now, sounds much better than when I sent out to mastering. I'm not knocking the other approaches people have, I've just found a better approach for me.
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Post by wiz on Mar 8, 2023 3:40:44 GMT -6
I mix and master as I produce. Works for me. Noone ever complained. +1 I do my own mastering as by the time I've finished a mix there's basically nothing left to do. I have excellent reference monitoring with perfect predictable translation. I've imbued all the magic, vibe and energy at the writing, arranging, tracking and mixing stages. I'm definitely not looking to add any "magic or tone" at the mastering stage. For me it's a purely technical process of topping and tailing, adding any necessary meta data then a touch of mastering compression and limiting if needed any any small corrective eq moves between songs (usually around 0.5dB .... 1dB would be a big move for me) just enough to balance tracks between themselves. If there's an issue then back to the mix I go - why on earth would I compromise and make corrections to a stereo file - makes no sense to me. I stopped sending out my mixes to mastering after I upgraded my gear to ATC monitoring, HEDD 192/Avocet converters and Thermionic Phoenix Mastering Plus bus compressor and The Switf tube EQ - plus I do have 40 years experience with pro audio, so decades of experience do help a bit. I prefer my approach now, sounds much better than when I sent out to mastering. I'm not knocking the other approaches people have, I've just found a better approach for me. I would love to Checkout your music Cheers Wiz
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 8, 2023 13:55:14 GMT -6
Or even better that leftover coin? If the artist & their camp is really hip? Goes towards promotion! Getting the music out there and into peoples earholes is never ever terrible. I get more excited about stuff like that then making an extra couple hundred bucks. This is what I encourage people to do. Are they going to go with a $50-per song mastering engineer? Not if that ME can't beat my quick-masters in a test-master. I've beat some $150 per song guys, too. I'm not magic. Some people are just shitty at their job but somehow convince people to pay 'em for it. I'm good with doing all the metadata and sequencing stuff. (Paraphrased) "Put that $50 per song in your pocket for marketing/promo and come back to me the next time you guys are trying to do anything. Here are 20 different promotional resources I've built up and curated over time for bands like yourselves."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2023 14:24:46 GMT -6
Or even better that leftover coin? If the artist & their camp is really hip? Goes towards promotion! Getting the music out there and into peoples earholes is never ever terrible. I get more excited about stuff like that then making an extra couple hundred bucks. This is what I encourage people to do. Are they going to go with a $50-per song mastering engineer? Not if that ME can't beat my quick-masters in a test-master. I've beat some $150 per song guys, too. I'm not magic. Some people are just shitty at their job but somehow convince people to pay 'em for it. I'm good with doing all the metadata and sequencing stuff. (Paraphrased) "Put that $50 per song in your pocket for marketing/promo and come back to me the next time you guys are trying to do anything. Here are 20 different promotional resources I've built up and curated over time for bands like yourselves." The 50+ mastering guy is mostly just going to use a bunch of distorted shit anyway to make it loud/plastic/gritty. There are still guys talking about using non oversampled “limiters” in mastering 44.1 khz content on the purple site. So make your tracks suck like all late 90s and early 2000s CDs. If the band wants it stupid loud, I can do that in the mix with less artifacts than he can in the master of a non loud mix. If they want the plastic, noisy distorted grit aliasing machine sound, I can mix it into from the get go to mentally compensate for it as soon as possible. You’re essentially fighting the horrible distortion and doing the sinc function and nyquist filtering yourself in your head as you mix into and ride faders into the piece of shit limiters. Those maximizing limiters all have levelers, clippers, transient shapers, and shitty infinite ratio compressors working on smoothed side chains. The all suck. The multiband ones like L3, McDSP AE whatever, Limitless, and Elevate suck even more when not mixed into but can be set to not fuck up the bass as much. I tell artists I can make their shit a fuzzed out explosive wall of sound anyway with no garbage decades old dsp or intentionally distorted limiters. No crappy pcm mastering limiter can smack as hard as something with a better Attack filter or be as explosive and fat as some clippers and saturators.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 8, 2023 16:11:38 GMT -6
This is what I encourage people to do. Are they going to go with a $50-per song mastering engineer? Not if that ME can't beat my quick-masters in a test-master. I've beat some $150 per song guys, too. I'm not magic. Some people are just shitty at their job but somehow convince people to pay 'em for it. I'm good with doing all the metadata and sequencing stuff. (Paraphrased) "Put that $50 per song in your pocket for marketing/promo and come back to me the next time you guys are trying to do anything. Here are 20 different promotional resources I've built up and curated over time for bands like yourselves." Absolutely not all mastering engineers are good. So much of this business is about relationships & networking. I couldn't do what I do without help from other people and over the years I've developed relationships with some great people who can help make things happen. In particular, I can't and won't even name my $50 a song guy publicly. But he's a real guy in a real room with a card rate that's way higher. And to be clear that's not every project... like we're not doing singles or extended cut, 9 minute prog rock songs for that rate. Something that seems to work here is I'll give people a list with a few different names to pick from. People that I know are going to be solid and deliver... they aren't going fall off the planet or give us back something random. That comes up early in conversations and I like I said, is factored into the overall budget from day one. Large factor in maintaining that "curated list" is that I get all kinds of people with varying backgrounds. One artist might be making their very first record ever. Others are on album cycle #4 or 5 and kinda know what's up. For those people on their first venture the whole process can be daunting. Mastering? Who really knows what that's about. And then there's a 1000 names out there. Who knows if any of 'em are any good? Experienced people if they already have a relationship with someone? Man that's cool too! As long their person has a track record of sorts all good. And that does happen on a regular basis. It really all comes down to quality control. Mastering is that last stop. Not the place for a random game of grabass. While I don't hang out a shingle on it, I've cut plenty of masters including vinyl prep and get a fair bit of dedicated work in that realm every year... One tiny indie label that sends me things? I got the work over a much more expensive & dedicated mastering house purely because I could answer a phone and return a email in less then two weeks. Really! There was an album a handful of years ago with a tight deadline for promo & touring and their guy flat out disappeared after it was submitted. Zero communication. One of the guys in the band said I'm gonna call my buddy who makes records... their thing is in my hands a few days later. Few weeks later the label calls again can we send you more? Sure why not!
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 8, 2023 20:44:20 GMT -6
I get the case-here case-there thing on specific mastering engineers and the troubles found within. Mixing completely hybrid though I appreciate having another set of ears on things and someone to do the cohesive work with all the tracks. I don't look at it as an extra expense I look at it as a stage in the process of making a record.
If you have those skills down though and can deliver all the formats and consistency with confidence, go for it for sure.
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Post by theshea on Mar 9, 2023 6:54:39 GMT -6
i tried out some 50+ masterings engineers too. was always dissappointed, thats why i attempted diy mastering first time. i was particularly dissappointed by their non-communication: most did ignore my notes and just delivered mastered songs without comments. no comment about the mixes or the finished master. when i had recall notes again, they just performed them without saying a word. so that to me signals a quick turnaround workflow to cash in more in the same time …
but i guess you have to pay the communication and go for 150+ ME.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 9, 2023 9:27:55 GMT -6
I don’t mean to cast aspersions, but if you’re solely judging an ME’s work in your own control room, you’re just reinforcing the idiosyncrasies of your room. E.G. if your room is too bright, you will tend to mix dark, and the mastered version will sound too bright.
I know most of you know this, but I have found a perplexing amount of people out there are judging mixes and masters in some supremely terrible listening environments. It’s a bit of a pet peeve.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 9, 2023 9:40:57 GMT -6
I don’t mean to cast aspersions, but if you’re solely judging an ME’s work in your own control room, you’re just reinforcing the idiosyncrasies of your room. E.G. if your room is too bright, you will tend to mix dark, and the mastered version will sound too bright. I know most of you know this, but I have found a perplexing amount of people out there are judging mixes and masters in some supremely terrible listening environments. It’s a bit of a pet peeve. Yes. I advise my clients that it's OK to listen in their studio, but to also listen in multiple real world environments and play it alongside relevant commercial releases. Whether self-mastering or not, it's time to think outside the studio, as that's where the track will live from now on.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 9, 2023 9:59:33 GMT -6
i was particularly dissappointed by their non-communication: most did ignore my notes and just delivered mastered songs without comments. no comment about the mixes or the finished master. when i had recall notes again, they just performed them without saying a word. so that to me signals a quick turnaround workflow to cash in more in the same time … but i guess you have to pay the communication and go for 150+ ME. Many MEs don't comment on the mixes for a reason; The client didn't ask for feedback. It would be presumptuous to offer unsolicited mix feedback unless it's something that would significantly affect the ability to make a good master. A lot of clients would be offended. If you asked for feedback and were ignored, then that's different. If you want a conversation about revisions then, again, ask. Otherwise we often will let the music do the talking, as listening to it is far more revealing than talking about it. And again, many clients don't want to be bothered with our opinions - they just want us to do the job. Assuming that it's about cashing in isn't fair IMO. I doubt the $150+ ME will volunteer any more unsolicited chat than the $25 ME. For good reason.
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Post by drbill on Mar 9, 2023 10:28:08 GMT -6
I hate mastering. Hate it. But I end up doing it constantly. There are variety of reasons, but mostly because I do music for TV/Film, multiple pieces get finished at 8PM, and have to be delivered by 9:00 the next morning. With multiple versions (often more than 10) of each piece of music. Ends up being dozens and dozens of pieces - and because I demand a hardware chain - it's all bounced in real time. There is just no time or money to have them mastered by someone else at a different location. Also, the new record company is requiring hundreds of revisions and it would literally swamp me financially and time and organization wise. If I was doing one album a year, then yeah, I'd have them mastered by a legit (not a $25-50 per song) guy - mostly because a second opinion by someone you trust is always good. But that's just not happening for me at this stage of career life. Several things have made my mastering life significantly easier, and more successful. In no particular order cause every piece of the chain at this point is significant..... - Having the room I'm working in designed by a legit designer - Hedback - and not taking any shortcuts. Ok, ok, very few shortcuts. - Mastering at -14LUFS. I love the fact that Spotify, etc. prefer the lower levels, and for me, the loudness wars are mostly a thing of the past. - Just DOING it for thousands of pieces of music. It gets easier, but it also makes me hate it even more. LOL - Having a killer outboard mastering chain that includes - Manley VariMu, Silver Bullet mk2 (helped me personally tremendously on the bottom end), Miad LCPQ 4040's, Avalon 2055's (occasionally), Locomotive 14B's occasionally, and the occasional SSL style buss comp when needed (Serpent and AudioScape), the Bricasti on StudioA when a bit more ambience is required, and occasionally the ZOD IDDI's - but they are usually on the mix chain, and that's enough. These along with the Fabfilter L2 on the back end gives me 95% of what I need. and hitting -14LUFS is mostly a piece of cake without destroying the music. I still have a ton of other stuff for specialty needs - but the VMu, SBmk2 and Miads do the heavy lifting. - Moving to the JBL 708P's for more accurate monitoring. Makes life more fun and interesting, while still steering me the right direction. - Moving to the Grace m905 - again - for accurate monitoring.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 9, 2023 11:59:48 GMT -6
One of the top LA guys will master your record for a grand if you FedEx him cash. 😂
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 9, 2023 12:12:06 GMT -6
Are all of your music clients (not the TV/film ones) satisfied with -14 LUFS masters?
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Post by theshea on Mar 9, 2023 12:23:13 GMT -6
Are all of your music clients (not the TV/film ones) satisfied with -14 LUFS masters? yeah, doubt it too. and the loudness war ain‘t over. and nobody i know delivers -14 LUFS for spotify as listeners all turn normalisation off and those songs would be way to quiet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 12:26:40 GMT -6
Are all of your music clients (not the TV/film ones) satisfied with -14 LUFS masters? yeah, doubt it too. and the loudness war ain‘t over. and nobody i know delivers -14 LUFS for spotify as listeners all turn normalisation off and those songs would be way to quiet. Or people who think modern music sucks.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 9, 2023 12:40:35 GMT -6
One of the top LA guys will master your record for a grand if you FedEx him cash. 😂 Let me take this opportunity to extend that same offer to the readers of this thread. Offer code: DEADPRESIDENTS
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 12:49:15 GMT -6
I don’t mean to cast aspersions, but if you’re solely judging an ME’s work in your own control room, you’re just reinforcing the idiosyncrasies of your room. E.G. if your room is too bright, you will tend to mix dark, and the mastered version will sound too bright. I know most of you know this, but I have found a perplexing amount of people out there are judging mixes and masters in some supremely terrible listening environments. It’s a bit of a pet peeve. Yes. I advise my clients that it's OK to listen in their studio, but to also listen in multiple real world environments and play it alongside relevant commercial releases. Whether self-mastering or not, it's time to think outside the studio, as that's where the track will live from now on. It's not just the room; it's most modern monitors too. They come in various sizes and usually only one size is any good if any.
Complex crossovers with low headroom amps and low detail drivers that do not translate eq, dynamics, panning or tonal/fader balances because they make everything sound good/bad/or audible.
The recent JBL 305, 705, and 708 (with adequate bass traps) were affordable godsends but fragile. The 700s might be discontinued though drbill
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 9, 2023 12:52:34 GMT -6
Are all of your music clients (not the TV/film ones) satisfied with -14 LUFS masters? yeah, doubt it too. and the loudness war ain‘t over. and nobody i know delivers -14 LUFS for spotify as listeners all turn normalisation off and those songs would be way to quiet. In addition to some people disabling it in their apps, Spotify Web Player, Apple Music Web Player, YouTube Music, SoundCloud, BandCamp and a number of other streaming scenarios do not even have loudness normalization as an option. It's not universal. The war continues for most artists and labels. I'd be driving Uber if I tried to target -14...
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Post by drbill on Mar 9, 2023 13:11:46 GMT -6
Are all of your music clients (not the TV/film ones) satisfied with -14 LUFS masters? yeah, doubt it too. and the loudness war ain‘t over. and nobody i know delivers -14 LUFS for spotify as listeners all turn normalisation off and those songs would be way to quiet. I haven't had complaints. Again, I don't claim to be a mastering engineer. Just a producer / engineer that has no choice due to a wide variety of complications. Listening in both cars / truck seems awesome, good on phone too. And other systems. I feel confident for one of the first times in life that my mixes / songs are in the zone. Don't know any listeners turning off normalization. But again, maybe I'm just ignorant.
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Post by drbill on Mar 9, 2023 13:12:46 GMT -6
The war continues for most artists and labels. I'd be driving Uber if I tried to target -14... What are you currently delivering - LUFS wise?
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 9, 2023 13:33:13 GMT -6
The war continues for most artists and labels. I'd be driving Uber if I tried to target -14... What are you currently delivering - LUFS wise? Well I almost never look at integrated LUFS, so I can't answer definitively on that. Max short term LUFS and RMS are the only meaningful meters to me, and I generally check them after I've dialed up a sound by ear, then if short term LUFS is hitting beyond -8 in the loud parts I'll take it as a flag that I might be getting carried away, and double check the perceived dynamics by ear. Depending on the song's macrodynamics, integrated LUFS should then fall in the -9 to -11 range. Punch and bounce is retained while being loud enough to satisfy most clients. The sweet spot. Some clients ask for more loudness, which I give them without question, within reason. A few clients will ask for less loudness, which is great. Nobody ends up at -14 unless it's a mellow genre or track. Most unmastered mixes are louder than -14 if you just raise the loudest peak to 0dbfs.
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