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Post by jaba on Jan 10, 2023 15:34:40 GMT -6
Just overkill. I guess all I’m really looking for is a pentiometer that works. Or is it called a potentiometer? Gotcha. Considering how good their other products are built, the Radial Engineering MC3 may be worth a look. www.radialeng.com/product/mc3It's been a few years, but I tried the MC3 based on the quality of their DIs and have to say I was surprised how how much it changed the sound. There was a very distinct veil that clouded the details and IIRC the soundstage seemed to get narrower. Maybe it's the price you pay for a low-cost active controller but I wouldn't recommend if you've got quality monitors. |
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Post by seawell on Jan 10, 2023 15:37:11 GMT -6
It's been a few years, but I tried the MC3 based on the quality of their DIs and have to say I was surprised how how much it changed the sound. There was a very distinct veil that clouded the details and IIRC the soundstage seemed to get narrower. Maybe it's the price you pay for a low-cost active controller but I wouldn't recommend if you've got quality monitors. Ahh ok, that's disappointing! Thanks for letting me know. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 10, 2023 16:21:33 GMT -6
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Post by guitfiddler on Jan 11, 2023 8:12:05 GMT -6
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Post by teejay on Jan 11, 2023 9:16:13 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 11, 2023 10:00:07 GMT -6
I’m getting tight in my old age. I’m not spending $2500 on a knob lol. I’ll probably go with the Baby Ram (I’d have to buy more cables), a Twin Solo or just deal with the scratchy-ness of the TC
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Post by mcirish on Jan 11, 2023 10:10:48 GMT -6
I have a Dangerous Monitor ST. I'd buy it again. I think it's great. My only wish is that the volume knob had some knurls so my fingers don't slip on it.
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Post by drsax on Jan 11, 2023 10:22:06 GMT -6
I use the Dangerous ST as well but… the reality for Johnkenn is that he is already using Burl conversion via the Apollo digital connections. That is a seriously high quality setup sonically. Using a twin keeps everything out of the audio path and preserves the signal path. |
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Post by Quint on Jan 11, 2023 10:37:10 GMT -6
That is the one that has relay controlled volume, similar to the RAM 2000. |
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Post by Quint on Jan 11, 2023 10:39:11 GMT -6
I use the Dangerous ST as well but… the reality for Johnkenn is that he is already using Burl conversion via the Apollo digital connections. That is a seriously high quality setup sonically. Using a twin keeps everything out of the audio path and preserves the signal path. Yeah, the Twin might be the way to go. A first gen Twin could be purchased on the used market for pretty cheap, I imagine, and you'd get extra DSP as a bonus. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 11, 2023 10:52:15 GMT -6
My only last point to spend $2500 on a "knob" (aka the grace) is that it'll last probably the rest of your life. And more importantly, it'll last and adapt to whatever DAC/montior setup changes you ever change too. So it is an investment, but will last.
Otherwise, the Twin is the right choice here IMO. Until you decide the Apollo's aren't working for you for whatever reason.
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Post by Quint on Jan 11, 2023 11:28:57 GMT -6
So, speaking of the Twin solution, is it no longer a worry about lowering bit resolution by lowering volume digitally? Conventional wisdom used to be that you kept your DA at full resolution/volume and then used an analog volume control between your DA and monitors.
I know that used to be a thing, but is it a concern anymore?
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Post by tim on Jan 11, 2023 17:34:45 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 17:37:30 GMT -6
Almost all modern Behringer products use the same cheap distorted circuit designs. Recording with it? That will just be how the recording is. Monitoring other stuff through it? You won't hear stuff. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 17:42:32 GMT -6
So, speaking of the Twin solution, is it no longer a worry about lowering bit resolution by lowering volume digitally? Conventional wisdom used to be that you kept your DA at full resolution/volume and then used an analog volume control between your DA and monitors. I know that used to be a thing, but is it a concern anymore? 64-bit floating point digital volume contro, even rounded to 32-bit float (like coreaudio) for in or out with a dither afterwards before converting to 24-bit fixed point is cleaner than any analog volume control. CoreAudio can pass the 24-bit dithered sample untouched to the converter despite that gearspace flamewar about a year ago and people complaining that different digital transport methods sound a little different. So do different media players and DAWs that all measure flat and pass the samples to the intertface unmolested (NOT FOOBAR2K!). Dithered PCM is linear to the noise floor. You have rounding errors hundreds of db down and dither noise, what over 140 db down? The gear it was recorded with won't match that. The only danger is noise bursts and software crashes. I had issues with MOTU, none with the knobs on current Apogee products. All preamps and monitor controllers seemed to add something unwanted or take something away, even passives but if you're mixing through a mixbus chain of plugins or a compressor, it doesn't matter that much if you get something decent like a drawmer, which adds a tiny bit of warmth or a dangerous product that can take some air out. |
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Post by tim on Jan 11, 2023 17:50:09 GMT -6
Yeah I pitched my behringer cue system when I stopped tracking bands at my place over Covid. Then I needed something for driving headphones while playing drums on my own so repurposed my SPL 2Control as my headphone amp after I upgraded my monitor controller and man the headphone amp sounds great on that thing. Where the behringer was always noisy and distorted low frequency transients, SPL holds its own. Back on topic, check out the SPL controllers. They’re pretty good for their price point.
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Post by teejay on Jan 11, 2023 19:03:44 GMT -6
Almost all modern Behringer products use the same cheap distorted circuit designs. Recording with it? That will just be how the recording is. Monitoring other stuff through it? You won't hear stuff. I'm soon to be 61. I already don't "hear stuff"  Like I said...  |
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Post by yewtreemagic on Jan 11, 2023 19:07:22 GMT -6
Really talking about one I can use as a controller right in front of me. I can control digitally with the Apollo Console or the actual Apollo knob, but it's a reach over the desk. Really love the ergonomics and simplicity of the TC LP, but after doing a bunch of back and forth - besides the crackling - I think it's rolling off highs and generally degrading the sound. I still have a passive monitor controller that I reviewed around 17 years ago, whose bandwidth measured well and is still reliable (it's had one application of DeoxIT Fader cleaner/lube to resolve some crackles), and the twin XLR output cables between its output and my studio power amp are less than one metre long (the most likely cause of HF roll-off with a passive controller is the added capacitance of long output cables). However, like you I nevertheless began to feel that it was rolling off something at the high end. It's still in my rack for occasional A/B tests with new gear, but I haven't used it as a monitor controller for some years now. Worth having a squirt of DeoxIT Fader to revitalise yours though, before you decide on a new model. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2023 18:38:51 GMT -6
OK - got some deoxit. Completely solved the scratchy pot.
But after going back a ton - I am convinced that the stereo image and top end suffers ever so slightly. And now - as much as I love the form factor and ease of use of the TC Level Pilot - I just can't sleep at night knowing that.
Looks like I'm gonna have to do another Apollo...
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Post by gwlee7 on Jan 12, 2023 18:48:52 GMT -6
OK - got some deoxit. Completely solved the scratchy pot. But after going back a ton - I am convinced that the stereo image and top end suffers ever so slightly. And now - as much as I love the form factor and ease of use of the TC Level Pilot - I just can't sleep at night knowing that.
Looks like I'm gonna have to do another Apollo...That’s the spirit. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2023 19:42:06 GMT -6
OK - got some deoxit. Completely solved the scratchy pot. But after going back a ton - I am convinced that the stereo image and top end suffers ever so slightly. And now - as much as I love the form factor and ease of use of the TC Level Pilot - I just can't sleep at night knowing that.
Looks like I'm gonna have to do another Apollo...That’s the spirit. Well, scratch that. I think I’d have to shell out like $450 at the minimum for a twin. Don’t think the Apollo Solo’s will work. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 14, 2023 3:47:28 GMT -6
I got lucky, 15 years ago I picked up a minty fresh almost new Crane Song Avocet for $1200!
It’s been a true workhorse unit.
The conversation on it is superb, I know they have a mk2 now but the mk1 is a great unit if you spot a second hand one.
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Post by donr on Jan 16, 2023 13:00:15 GMT -6
I'm embarrassed and humiliated to admit I've got one of these and I like it fine. It's VCA I believe. I went through two TC Level Pilots before getting it. Great features, and to my 5 decade Marshall ravaged ears, sounds crisp and clean. Better than the passive TC. It does monitor volume duties only, and switching between three analog inputs and two sets of powered monitors and two headphone outputs. I take Dan's point about Behringer stuff. I can clearly hear the inferior sound of a Behringer X32 console compared any other stage monitor console. But this piece sounds fine to me. A big plus is the compact form and the volume pot and the relay switches on the front side instead of the top of the chassis. I don't want to lean over a controller to ride the monitor pot or inputs. Jacks and cables are on the back almost out of sight. It's hefty, if that's important. Maybe there's a brick inside. For a pro studio, it might not inspire client confidence, but for me it works. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 16, 2023 14:41:45 GMT -6
I'm embarrassed and humiliated to admit I've got one of these and I like it fine. It's VCA I believe. I went through two TC Level Pilots before getting it. Great features, and to my 5 decade Marshall ravaged ears, sounds crisp and clean. Better than the passive TC. It does monitor volume duties only, and switching between three analog inputs and two sets of powered monitors and two headphone outputs. I take Dan's point about Behringer stuff. I can clearly hear the inferior sound of a Behringer X32 console compared any other stage monitor console. But this piece sounds fine to me. A big plus is the compact form and the volume pot and the relay switches on the front side instead of the top of the chassis. I don't want to lean over a controller to ride the monitor pot or inputs. Jacks and cables are on the back almost out of sight. It's hefty, if that's important. Maybe there's a brick inside. For a pro studio, it might not inspire client confidence, but for me it works. Don I think one of the biggest complaints about Behringer is in fact every once in a while there is a decent product or worse a decent sample of a product. The thing is and this is the former dealer talking the biggest problem is if your controller was a decent product they have probably gone back and found a cheaper way to make the thing without telling anyone and the odds of a brand new sounding good are as good as finding a decent sounding x32😎 |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 16, 2023 19:06:25 GMT -6
I’m in paralysis mode now.
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