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Post by bchurch on Jan 1, 2023 8:01:19 GMT -6
Back in the days of Sound Designer II and the most primitive version of Digidesign ProTools, plug-ins were a sad affair. You had things like "Compressor", which made the Yamaha 02R's dynamics sound positively useable. But shortly thereafter, they began bundling 'software emulation' of hardware like the Focusrite Red compressor and EQ. And the race was on.
By the time we turned on our computers on Jan 1, 2000, pleased to find that the portent of Y2K hadn't relegated our machines into dust, there was already a scratch for almost every vintage-tinged itch. Several iterations of the 1176, the LA2A, the this, the that, and the other thing had appeared on our 1024x768 20" monitors - complete with patinated edges and badly-responsive VU meters.
It's now 22 years later and I think it's fair to say that approximating the vintage look, sound, and feel has been done. To death. For the great many, "just like" and "close enough" are a fair tradeoff for low cost, endless instances, granular control and automation, and no-brainer recall.
What DSP is capable of goes so far beyond cloning a Neve 2254 or SolidStateLogic G-Comp for the hundredth time. And with it, it's time to start looking towards casting aside the simulated bakelite knobs and bulb backlighting. A plasma-like display of levels or spectrographic EQ response gives the user a much more tactile understanding of what's happening under the hood.
We've recreated what made the past great. And creating the future doesn't mean we have to disown our forebears. Discuss.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 1, 2023 8:18:43 GMT -6
I’m into it. Plugins that do more than hardware can or possibly can’t even do.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 1, 2023 9:01:38 GMT -6
I'm going to have a different angle on this.
For my tastes in music and production, what appeals was created a long time ago.
It's a bit like mic design, for me it was mastered in the 50's and 60's!
I've just got excited because UA just brilliantly modelled the Hitsville EQ and chamber reverb.
For all the advances in ambience technology nothing appeals to my ears more than that Motown chamber - it's
so musical sounding.
For me the job isn't finished.
As the computers and modeller's develop there will come a time when an LA2A or 1176 plugin (etc) will produce a file with literally identical 0's and 1's that passing
the signal though the hardware will produce - true deep faking.
I don't won't developers to stop until the job is truly finished - they're getting close.
New digital tools, sure why not .... but currently they tend to be AI "dumbing down" tools!
I'm not convinced the paint brush needs re-inventing.
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Post by schlep on Jan 1, 2023 9:07:10 GMT -6
I agree… there is much fetishism around vintage, but it extends far beyond plug ins to mics, guitars, guitar amps, etc.
Do we really need more U87 or Fender amp clones?
I’m all for seeing well designed and implemented gear that reflects current thinking and technology, whether it’s a plug in or hardware.
I wonder how many others are? Did the industry really hit a high water mark decades ago? (Or is it the music that was produced with the gear what is driving the market for vintage?)
At any rate…. Happy new year to all !
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 1, 2023 9:13:08 GMT -6
.... when the last time you came across a new truly tasty wholesome recipe. Maybe some people want liquidized spaceman food in a plastic sachet  I went out to buy a new amp - I tried all the latest modern offerings. I came home with a Tone King Imperial MK2 (Blackface Deluxe) I guess I'm traditional in my tastes. |
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Post by schlep on Jan 1, 2023 9:51:22 GMT -6
.... when the last time you came across a new truly tasty wholesome recipe. Maybe some people want liquidized spaceman food in a plastic sachet I went out to buy a new amp - I tried all the latest modern offerings. I came home with a Tone King Imperial MK2 (Blackface Deluxe) I guess I'm traditional in my tastes. First off, Tone King are pretty amazing amps in the Fender vein. Congrats on that! I am primarily a guitarist and rely on the big 3… Fender, Vox and Marshall. I have 3 60s Blackface Fenders I use regularly. I also own and use a Catalyst (digital modeling amp) and just got a Walrus ACS-1 which is basically an ‘amp in a box’ pedal. I guess I am hybrid New recipe? Dr Z takes a different approach in some of his amps. Still sounds like a guitar amp though. A bit more hi-Fi perhaps. All this said, I admit that if I had a date in a big studio to record serious stuff… I would rely on one of my tube amps, which is old technology. The new technology does allow for some great tones that can be dialed in pretty quickly, and in many cases hearing the technology on a recording, sounds really good. Feel however is a bit different with the tube amps bring more fun / easier to play. Just popped into my head… there is an album by The Cardigans with incredible guitar / amp tone… I internetted it 😁and found it was Amo Farm. I was shocked…. Even knowing this, I still love the tones. |
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Post by bchurch on Jan 1, 2023 10:03:52 GMT -6
I'm going to have a different angle on this. For my tastes in music and production, what appeals was created a long time ago. I'm not convinced the paint brush needs re-inventing. "Some people say, 'Give the customers what they want.' But that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do." - Steve Jobs "If I'd asked the people what they wanted, they would have said, 'a faster horse'." - Henry Ford To borrow your paintbrush analogy, we've since created Photoshop and Illustrator. They can emulate brush strokes but can't create the depth of drying acrylic. So... given that it's a fool's errand, what can the applications do that a paintbrush can not? |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 1, 2023 11:16:51 GMT -6
I'm going to have a different angle on this. For my tastes in music and production, what appeals was created a long time ago. I'm not convinced the paint brush needs re-inventing. "Some people say, 'Give the customers what they want.' But that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do." - Steve Jobs "If I'd asked the people what they wanted, they would have said, 'a faster horse'." - Henry Ford To borrow your paintbrush analogy, we've since created Photoshop and Illustrator. They can emulate brush strokes but can't create the depth of drying acrylic. So... given that it's a fool's errand, what can the applications do that a paintbrush can not? LOL .... yeah Apple have really developed the iPhone  I'm old school (probably a function of my age) the tools and instruments I adore and use where invented many decades ago just as music theory was codified centuries ago. All I need do now it be creative with the these amazing tools. New strange instruments and AI plugins are for the new generation (and forward thinking oldies :-) I'm sunk, give me a Strat, LP, Fender Amp, LA2A, 1073, U47 etc etc and a plugin of the Motown Chambers and I'm happy as a pig in mud. The closer plugins get to deep faking these type of tools all the better for me. I'd rather pay $100 for an LA2A that is an exactly sample accurate perfect digital clone than pay $5K for a hardware unit. I imagine one day the developers will master it all. This sums it up for me .... My last pre-amp purchase which is now my favourite and most used pre-amp is the Coil CA-70 .... I believe the design has elements from the 1930's!!
Told you I'm sunk
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jan 1, 2023 11:23:33 GMT -6
I agree with the main point. But I don't see a lack of innovative plugins that are not HW emulations.
DSEQ, Soothe 2, Spiff, SplitEQ, Multiplicity, CenterOne, Unisum, Exhale, Vocal Rider. Those are just off the top of my head.
Plenty of options for all tastes.
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Post by bchurch on Jan 1, 2023 11:23:52 GMT -6
We can likely agree on the AI-assisted stuff. I suppose I could arguably keep something around for a gut check... "here's how Robo-Master 4000 would make your track or mix sound..." and there might be something to that. But turning the mixing process into a "Waves One-Knob Mastered-er" thing absolutely sucks the fun out of it. I want to turn knobs and make mistakes, knowing full well there's more than one 'right way' to do it... even if my right way might not be 'the' right way.
I still have a handprint on my forehead from the day I saw there was an actual plug-in called "Soundgoodizer". I had jokingly used that term in blog posts and articles for years (though I think I called it "Soundgood-er-izer". It's amazing how much an idea like Waves L1 can be repackaged over and over again.
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Post by carymiller on Jan 1, 2023 11:43:13 GMT -6
Back in the days of Sound Designer II and the most primitive version of Digidesign ProTools, plug-ins were a sad affair. You had things like "Compressor", which made the Yamaha 02R's dynamics sound positively useable. But shortly thereafter, they began bundling 'software emulation' of hardware like the Focusrite Red compressor and EQ. And the race was on. By the time we turned on our computers on Jan 1, 2000, pleased to find that the portent of Y2K hadn't relegated our machines into dust, there was already a scratch for almost every vintage-tinged itch. Several iterations of the 1176, the LA2A, the this, the that, and the other thing had appeared on our 1024x768 20" monitors - complete with patinated edges and badly-responsive VU meters. It's now 22 years later and I think it's fair to say that approximating the vintage look, sound, and feel has been done. To death. For the great many, "just like" and "close enough" are a fair tradeoff for low cost, endless instances, granular control and automation, and no-brainer recall. What DSP is capable of goes so far beyond cloning a Neve 2254 or SolidStateLogic G-Comp for the hundredth time. And with it, it's time to start looking towards casting aside the simulated bakelite knobs and bulb backlighting. A plasma-like display of levels or spectrographic EQ response gives the user a much more tactile understanding of what's happening under the hood. We've recreated what made the past great. And creating the future doesn't mean we have to disown our forebears. Discuss. I think the key term is accessibility. A decent clone of a good preamp and mic that's affordable can get a lot done. A decent plugin that's reminiscent of the sound of a good piece of hardware can help someone learn. The first time I ever used an SSL 4000 I had only used the original Waves G or E Channel Strip before (I forget which one it was modeled after). But because of my experience with the plugin, I very quickly got the hang of the EQ's and compressors on the desk. Usually, it's been the reverse for me, where I know analog pieces intimately for a long time and then later try the plugin versions. But SSL's are expensive and there's only really one good 4000 in Arizona at Mesa Community College, so that's where I got to finally try one out. I do agree that modern tools like Dr. Mid Side or the Fab Filter Plugins, or Elevate for example are interesting, but you need a mix of classic sounds too. Not just for nostalgia, but because a lot of that stuff has a sound. I really miss my Great River EQ's and Massive Passive for example. I'm not sure I can afford to replace that stuff in a single year, but if I can get some software to get me close enough for rock and roll, at least I'm working. Same token. I am excited for digital's future. I codeveloped Aftermaster HD with Shelly Yakus. I want to see digital get better. But I'm missing having a hybrid setup after being fully digital for a couple years for a reason. Some things really just work. |
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Post by bossanova on Jan 1, 2023 20:18:40 GMT -6
I think there’s only so many gaps left to fill in what digital music tools can do, personally. The new vocal synthesizers when hand tweaked are surprisingly impressive. Beyond that…I don’t know how many more innovations in processing we really need vs putting that time into composing and creating and recording new and interesting music.
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Post by yewtreemagic on Jan 1, 2023 20:24:22 GMT -6
"It Is Now 2023: The Plug-In Industry Needs To Look Ahead..." And there I was thinking this was just so they could react to all the transients  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2023 20:33:39 GMT -6
I'm going to have a different angle on this. For my tastes in music and production, what appeals was created a long time ago. It's a bit like mic design, for me it was mastered in the 50's and 60's! I've just got excited because UA just brilliantly modelled the Hitsville EQ and chamber reverb. For all the advances in ambience technology nothing appeals to my ears more than that Motown chamber - it's so musical sounding. For me the job isn't finished. As the computers and modeller's develop there will come a time when an LA2A or 1176 plugin (etc) will produce a file with literally identical 0's and 1's that passing the signal though the hardware will produce - true deep faking. I don't won't developers to stop until the job is truly finished - they're getting close. New digital tools, sure why not .... but currently they tend to be AI "dumbing down" tools! I'm not convinced the paint brush needs re-inventing. I agree with this. It still hasn’t been done 1:1 if you ask me. It’s definitely close, but I’m not choosing a UAD 1073 mic pre to track an important vocal over the real thing anytime soon. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2023 20:40:19 GMT -6
Clones and emulations need to die. Once you know how to use Kotelnikov or MDWDRC and use them all over the place on decent recordings of decent performances, other plugin compressors and the great majority of the still made hardware just sound so artificial with some choice exceptions, none of which are "classics"
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 1, 2023 20:56:38 GMT -6
"Some people say, 'Give the customers what they want.' But that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do." - Steve Jobs "If I'd asked the people what they wanted, they would have said, 'a faster horse'." - Henry Ford To borrow your paintbrush analogy, we've since created Photoshop and Illustrator. They can emulate brush strokes but can't create the depth of drying acrylic. So... given that it's a fool's errand, what can the applications do that a paintbrush can not? LOL .... yeah Apple have really developed the iPhone I'm old school (probably a function of my age) the tools and instruments I adore and use where invented many decades ago just as music theory was codified centuries ago. All I need do now it be creative with the these amazing tools. New strange instruments and AI plugins are for the new generation (and forward thinking oldies :-) I'm sunk, give me a Strat, LP, Fender Amp, LA2A, 1073, U47 etc etc and a plugin of the Motown Chambers and I'm happy as a pig in mud. The closer plugins get to deep faking these type of tools all the better for me. I'd rather pay $100 for an LA2A that is an exactly sample accurate perfect digital clone than pay $5K for a hardware unit. I imagine one day the developers will master it all. This sums it up for me .... My last pre-amp purchase which is now my favourite and most used pre-amp is the Coil CA-70 .... I believe the design has elements from the 1930's!!
Told you I'm sunk
What drum kit are you using? 😜😜 |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 1, 2023 23:58:54 GMT -6
LOL .... yeah Apple have really developed the iPhone I'm old school (probably a function of my age) the tools and instruments I adore and use where invented many decades ago just as music theory was codified centuries ago. All I need do now it be creative with the these amazing tools. New strange instruments and AI plugins are for the new generation (and forward thinking oldies :-) I'm sunk, give me a Strat, LP, Fender Amp, LA2A, 1073, U47 etc etc and a plugin of the Motown Chambers and I'm happy as a pig in mud. The closer plugins get to deep faking these type of tools all the better for me. I'd rather pay $100 for an LA2A that is an exactly sample accurate perfect digital clone than pay $5K for a hardware unit. I imagine one day the developers will master it all. This sums it up for me .... My last pre-amp purchase which is now my favourite and most used pre-amp is the Coil CA-70 .... I believe the design has elements from the 1930's!!
Told you I'm sunk
What drum kit are you using? 😜😜 Roland V Drums triggering Toontrack SDX …. all emulations of traditional instruments. So I don’t get your point …. it just re enforces my point - they need to keep going and finish what they’ve started :-) |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 2, 2023 0:14:02 GMT -6
Clones and emulations need to die. Once you know how to use Kotelnikov or MDWDRC and use them all over the place on decent recordings of decent performances, other plugin compressors and the great majority of the still made hardware just sound so artificial with some choice exceptions, none of which are "classics" Crikey, that all sounds very dystopian. Be careful what you wish for, Rush will discover an old LA2A in a cave and write a 26 minute song about it in 7/8 …. then you’ll be sorry |
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Post by lpedrum on Jan 2, 2023 2:11:14 GMT -6
I think how much further plugins can go will depend on whether they can improve on the inspirational connection with the user. The resulting sound of plugins may sometimes be 90% there, but the joy in the creative process in terms finding the sweet spot of musical pleasure and discovery usually lags way behind hardware, and not just for tactile reasons. I wonder why there aren't more examples of hybrid plugin/hardware gear, aiming for the best of both worlds.
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Post by bchurch on Jan 2, 2023 8:01:27 GMT -6
I have a very big soft spot for the developers who are taking chances and making creative tools. Freakshow Industries comes to mind. Their stuff is completely, utterly bent.
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Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2023 12:09:21 GMT -6
Man how long have I been preaching this? There is easy money in the next 1176 LA2 it really doesn’t show what DSP can do. Modeling analog will only get you so far, the problem with the modern mic building analogy is simply this : if you we’re talking about laser mics being built to reproduce the classic’s it would be right on, but modern mic builders are using modern versions of the same components, digital is a whole new ball game. The funny thing is I think the live / contracting world is embracing what DSP is truly capable of far more than the studio world.
Maybe video is our hope, I am hopeful that the guys at Blackmagic/ Fairlight will develop tools their customers can use that just can’t be done in analog push the envelope and we will see carryover into the studio.
Of course I will contradict myself and admit to building a Soundgrid server to take plugins with me live, I defend it based on the classic live argument, 1 rack space vs a whole rack!
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Post by christopher on Jan 2, 2023 12:19:27 GMT -6
I have ideas for a few “no analog equivalent” plugins that haven’t been done. I’ve had these ideas for almost 15 years and still hasn’t been made.
Does anyone know how to make a plugin and can direct me the best way to learn to make one?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 2, 2023 12:33:28 GMT -6
Case in point: UAD. Their Dimension D emulates the original. I also have Sound Toys version of the same chorus. The Sound Toys version has a mix knob not on the original. Guess which on I use and which one I never use.
I need the mix feature every time and it only takes a couple of seconds to dial in just the right amount. UAD refuses to add such a feature, despite its obvious advantages. All in the name of adhering to the original design?
This makes no sense at all. It can be modeled exactly the same as the original AND have a mix knob.
I'm looking forward to seeing more implementation of plug-ins that can really help. I think it would be great if for instance a plug in can identify the exact frequencies where sibilance is. Of course I respect training your ears to hear certain frequencies and get into an area you want to adjust. But it would be a great help if a plug in showed exactly where the frickin "S" you want to temper really is.
I know Sooth does this in a way, but I'd prefer to see it in a graph and adjust to taste.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 2, 2023 12:42:38 GMT -6
What drum kit are you using? 😜😜 Roland V Drums triggering Toontrack SDX …. all emulations of traditional instruments. So I don’t get your point …. it just re enforces my point - they need to keep going and finish what they’ve started :-) Just a joke because you said you’re old school. Edrums are very much a modern way of doing things. Obviously, I’m doing the same, so don’t take it as a knock on you. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 2, 2023 12:43:56 GMT -6
Case in point: UAD. Their Dimension D emulates the original. I also have Sound Toys version of the same chorus. The Sound Toys version has a mix knob not on the original. Guess which on I use and which one I never use. I need the mix feature every time and it only takes a couple of seconds to dial in just the right amount. UAD refuses to add such a feature, despite its obvious advantages. All in the name of adhering to the original design? This makes no sense at all. It can be modeled exactly the same as the original AND have a mix knob. I have the soundtoys and don’t use the mix knob at all. Put it on an aux and use the send level as a mix knob. That’s the way it was done with the hardware. |
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