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Post by schlep on Dec 29, 2022 15:48:27 GMT -6
Hi All -
Any preference for either in tracking steel string acoustic guitar? I'm figuring preference may land about 50/50 on this one.
Currently I have and use an LA-3A style compressor, wondering about an 1176 style which has more options in terms of compression ratio, attack and release.
Thanks
Craig
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Post by jaba on Dec 29, 2022 15:57:34 GMT -6
Oof, tough one. I'm about 50/50 myself so am likely no help.
I usually have access to both while tracking and I just kind of go with what I'm feeling at the moment. Both are classics on guitar for a reason, picked, strummed, whatever. Both can do fairly subtle and fully digging in very well. Neither are super clean. I do like playing with combos of the ratios on the 1176 which give a different grab/tone but I never miss that when using the 3A.
You really can't go wrong with either (for guitars and for all-around) if you're looking for something with that old school grit.
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Post by ragan on Dec 29, 2022 15:58:15 GMT -6
In general, 3A. But if you want something more overt, 1176 is cool.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 29, 2022 16:02:20 GMT -6
What type of part are you tracking?
I’m sure there are instruments that have a wider variety of taste preferences than acoustic guitar, but I’m hard-pressed to think of any. I know for certain that what I think sounds amazing on an acoustic guitar others absolutely hate.
And, in my opinion, what passes for the widely considered “good“ acoustic guitar sound, to me, sounds like thin trash played by a 14 year old girl with an ultra-light pick on her older brother’s brand new Sigma. And yet. I am in the minority.
Nobody is right, especially when it comes to acoustic sounds.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2022 16:15:04 GMT -6
Do you like the sound of your guitar, mic, and pre? If so, I warn you that putting an 1176 of any variety on it will change the sound way more than most optos. I like Varimu style things (especially the flexible mjuc and the solid state leveling amps like the fmr pbc-6a) and compressors with tube stages on guitars because they change the sound! optos are cool too because they can take an edge off, even a lowly art vla, when hit right
If your LA3A is pumping and you’re unhappy with it’s sound and action, try a more modern clean comp with a faster, more consistent attack and good program dependent release, eg I really like the Daking fets (I’m sure the Comp II is great) and it keeps the tone mostly intact, Dangerous Compressor has transparent action but a sheen, the old Drawmer vcas are good and take off some top end if you like that, and Aphex Expressor and Compellor of course are great too but not made anymore and will keep your tone intact unlike most other compressors!
if you want to level and catch the peaks cleanly, no currently made hardware I’ve heard is as clean as Kotelnikov GE and MDWDRC2 itb. They have dual detectors and thresholds so even just catching the peaks on a little bit on the way or leveling it out conservatively will be overmodulated compared to just waiting to do it after the recording in one go. Those compressors have multiple detectors and thresholds but only one vca modulating the audio path. Of course a compressor on the way in can be easier on your ears when monitoring especially if you’re using mics like Neumanns that can add an unpleasant bright push to acoustic guitar.
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Post by dougwendal on Dec 29, 2022 16:35:51 GMT -6
I recently recored a fingerpicked (D-35) acoustic guitar using a U87, Avalon M5, Great River 2NV-EQ and a Serpent Splice (1176). The Splice has a blend mix knob and switchable blackface/bluestripe inputs and outputs. It's a very flexible compressor. I was happy with the result.
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Post by sean on Dec 29, 2022 16:43:32 GMT -6
I think this an application where the Daking FET II / 91759 shines.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2022 16:44:01 GMT -6
Vox and acoustics, LA-2A..  |
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Post by drbill on Dec 29, 2022 16:51:32 GMT -6
We're talking hardware right? 3a.
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 29, 2022 16:56:17 GMT -6
In general, 3A. But if you want something more overt, 1176 is cool. Totally agree with Ragan on this. And by "overt," I would mean if I want a part to be super aggressive or pumping to the rhythm of the song, I would go with an 1176. When self tracking, there's pretty much nothing easier to set than a 3A. |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 29, 2022 17:11:01 GMT -6
What part of the signal are you wanting to feature?
If you want to emphasise the attack portion of a fingerpicking part (for example) then it makes sense to select a compressor
that has controls to accurately control the envelope of the action, in which case out of these two options I'd select a 1176 (prob. BF)
If you just want to generally smooth the part out and add some gloss then an 2A/3A will take you more in that direction, though personally
for that task I prefer to add the sheen and gloss of a Vari MU like a STA Level, Phoenix, 176 etc.
One exception in the opto world that does have great control is the Buzz Audio Essence - that's an opto that you can really dial in a very cool
envelope that's fast enough to get some emphasised attack, though really a FET or VCA is an easier option for that task.
Diode compressors are really cool too - I'd like to add a decent diode tracking compressor.
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Post by WKG on Dec 29, 2022 19:22:06 GMT -6
I think this an application where the Daking FET II / 91759 shines. Haven't used the FET II but the Daking FET III works great. |
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Post by tkaitkai on Dec 29, 2022 19:43:19 GMT -6
if you want to level and catch the peaks cleanly, no currently made hardware I’ve heard is as clean as Kotelnikov GE and MDWDRC2 itb. I actually like using Soft Limit on my Apogee Element for this exact purpose. Great way to shave off strummed acoustic guitar peaks on the way in, and it doesn't sound the slightest bit unnatural to my ears. Of course, you have to be reasonable — you can't slam it like you would a compressor.
I also have to agree with everyone else that an LA3A is generally a more versatile choice for acoustic guitars, although as mentioned, an 1176 can be cool if you're going for that sound. In general, though, there are other compressors I would prefer to either. Daking FET is a great option.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 29, 2022 19:55:33 GMT -6
Do you guys all really compress acoustic guitars on the way in? I find compression so finicky on acoustic guitars that I often don't compress them at all going in. Seems like there's such a fine line between "tamed" and "quacky and ruined" that I don't usually bother unless there's a part that actually calls for an over-compressed acoustic (in which case I usually reach for Audioscape Opto, I like the pumping).
For context, I tend to go for a dark/woody acoustic style like you might hear on Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan records. No SDC's here, gimme that dirt!
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Post by tkaitkai on Dec 29, 2022 20:08:19 GMT -6
Do you guys all really compress acoustic guitars on the way in? I find compression so finicky on acoustic guitars that I often don't compress them at all going in. Seems like there's such a fine line between "tamed" and "quacky and ruined" that I don't usually bother unless there's a part that actually calls for an over-compressed acoustic (in which case I usually reach for Audioscape Opto, I like the pumping). For context, I tend to go for a dark/woody acoustic style like you might hear on Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan records. No SDC's here, gimme that dirt!
That's a good point — I actually don't compress acoustic guitars too much anymore.
Hard strumming is the exception, but fingerpicking and other stuff just gets too washy/weird in a lot of cases. I often find acoustic guitars have one or two lower midrange resonances that trigger compressors in a very annoying way, and it only happens on certain notes, so it ends up sounding goofy and all over the place. And if I back off the GR, it's hard to tell if the compressor is actually doing anything at all. In many cases, I just end up leaving it off.
But as mentioned, I do really like using the Apogee Soft Limit (HW, not plugin) to clip hard strumming.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 29, 2022 20:13:25 GMT -6
Do you guys all really compress acoustic guitars on the way in? I find compression so finicky on acoustic guitars that I often don't compress them at all going in. Seems like there's such a fine line between "tamed" and "quacky and ruined" that I don't usually bother unless there's a part that actually calls for an over-compressed acoustic (in which case I usually reach for Audioscape Opto, I like the pumping). For context, I tend to go for a dark/woody acoustic style like you might hear on Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan records. No SDC's here, gimme that dirt!
I often find acoustic guitars have one or two lower midrange resonances that trigger compressors in a very annoying way, and it only happens on certain notes, so it ends up sounding goofy and all over the place. And if I back off the GR, it's hard to tell if the compressor is actually doing anything at all. In many cases, I just end up leaving it off.
Exactly this. For me acoustic guitar is supposed to have kind of a wild dynamic range. I spend so much breaking up fights between my acoustic guitars and compressors in the mix, I can't imagine wanting to do that on the tracking side. They just aren't friends in my world. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 29, 2022 20:31:34 GMT -6
Do you guys all really compress acoustic guitars on the way in? I find compression so finicky on acoustic guitars that I often don't compress them at all going in. Seems like there's such a fine line between "tamed" and "quacky and ruined" that I don't usually bother unless there's a part that actually calls for an over-compressed acoustic (in which case I usually reach for Audioscape Opto, I like the pumping). For context, I tend to go for a dark/woody acoustic style like you might hear on Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan records. No SDC's here, gimme that dirt! It just depends on the part. I personally love the sounds you're describing, and have gone for those a bunch over the years. Though I'm not sure Dylan's acoustic on "Idiot Wind" could ever be construed as a "good" acoustic sound, it serves its purpose in the song very well. And some of that older acoustic sound is the mics being farther away, too. I used a (Manley) Langevin Dual Vocal Combo for many years, and its LA-3A-esque solid state opto limiter was the highlight of that piece of gear, IMO. I always felt that as long as I hit it with no more than 2-3dB of GR on the meter, I really wasn't doing any damage to the signal. It was pretty damn transparent. Just taking the tops off a tiny bit. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 29, 2022 20:50:04 GMT -6
Do you guys all really compress acoustic guitars on the way in? I find compression so finicky on acoustic guitars that I often don't compress them at all going in. Seems like there's such a fine line between "tamed" and "quacky and ruined" that I don't usually bother unless there's a part that actually calls for an over-compressed acoustic (in which case I usually reach for Audioscape Opto, I like the pumping). For context, I tend to go for a dark/woody acoustic style like you might hear on Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan records. No SDC's here, gimme that dirt! It just depends on the part. I personally love the sounds you're describing, and have gone for those a bunch over the years. Though I'm not sure Dylan's acoustic on "Idiot Wind" could ever be construed as a "good" acoustic sound, it serves its purpose in the song very well. And some of that older acoustic sound is the mics being farther away, too. I used a (Manley) Langevin Dual Vocal Combo for many years, and its LA-3A-esque solid state opto limiter was the highlight of that piece of gear, IMO. I always felt that as long as I hit it with no more than 2-3dB of GR on the meter, I really wasn't doing any damage to the signal. It was pretty damn transparent. Just taking the tops off a tiny bit. My current favorite acoustic move is to put it in the center and duck it under the vocal. Kind of simulating what you would hear in the old Columbia studios with the guitar and vocals sung live. It's super fun and adds vintage energy. But definitely a taste thing. Some people love pistachio ice cream... others? Puke in a bowl. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 29, 2022 21:09:26 GMT -6
It just depends on the part. I personally love the sounds you're describing, and have gone for those a bunch over the years. Though I'm not sure Dylan's acoustic on "Idiot Wind" could ever be construed as a "good" acoustic sound, it serves its purpose in the song very well. And some of that older acoustic sound is the mics being farther away, too. I used a (Manley) Langevin Dual Vocal Combo for many years, and its LA-3A-esque solid state opto limiter was the highlight of that piece of gear, IMO. I always felt that as long as I hit it with no more than 2-3dB of GR on the meter, I really wasn't doing any damage to the signal. It was pretty damn transparent. Just taking the tops off a tiny bit. My current favorite acoustic move is to put it in the center and duck it under the vocal. Kind of simulating what you would hear in the old Columbia studios with the guitar and vocals sung live. It's super fun and adds vintage energy. But definitely a taste thing. Some people love pistachio ice cream... others? Puke in a bowl. Interesting! I've never met anyone who loved puke in a bowl. We must hang in pretty different crowds.    (I hope it's obvious I'm just messing around.) |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 29, 2022 21:11:29 GMT -6
My current favorite acoustic move is to put it in the center and duck it under the vocal. Kind of simulating what you would hear in the old Columbia studios with the guitar and vocals sung live. It's super fun and adds vintage energy. But definitely a taste thing. Some people love pistachio ice cream... others? Puke in a bowl. Interesting! I've never met anyone who loved puke in a bowl. We must hang in pretty different crowds. (I hope it's obvious I'm just messing around.) I literally think pistachio ice cream tastes like someone threw up in a bowl. My wife thinks it's heaven sent. Go figure. |
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Post by sean on Dec 29, 2022 21:19:04 GMT -6
I would say that compressing an acoustic guitar is really only something I do in a "pop" arrangement...like if it's a sea of strummed guitars doing the Jeff Lynne thing or whatever. But I don't think I've ever compressed on "to tape" that I can remember.
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Post by schlep on Dec 29, 2022 22:05:19 GMT -6
Hi All - Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I probably should have included a bit more about the part... think mildly aggressive struming in an acoustic guitar oriented pop song. I am trying to 'manage' the strumming rather than artisitcally time the compressor to any particular beat. Based on a few responses here and elsewhere I should give consideration to not compressing while tracking, or very mildly compressing on the way in and working with the tracked guitar ITB. I use a Phoenix Audio DRS-1 mic pre (Modern Neve-ish sound) with a Neuman KM-184 or Shure SM81 (home studio). I'll throw a LDC on there tomorrow to see what I think. Really, i consider any Neve style pre as adding some compression on it's own. Below are a few direct responses. . . We're talking hardware right? 3a. Good clarification, yes, hardware. @ thehightenor What part of the signal are you wanting to feature? THIS ==> If you just want to generally smooth the part out and add some gloss then an 2A/3A will take you more in that direction, though personally for that task I prefer to add the sheen and gloss of a Vari MU like a STA Level, Phoenix, 176 etc. |
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Post by robo on Dec 29, 2022 22:43:29 GMT -6
I’d rather record acoustic without compression than either of those options. For strumming I want to preserve more attack.
This would be a spot where a Distressor could be nice, or a fet comp that has slower attack or a blend control. I’ve got an Empress ECM-519 which I quite like for this type of thing.
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Post by smashlord on Dec 29, 2022 23:02:45 GMT -6
Depends on the part and the arrangement..... If its just acoustic and vocals, I might not compress at all. Strummed acoustic I like the LA-3A. Finger plucking I like the 1176 because it can catch peaks and give it sustain.
#1 Acoustic compressor for me though is the RS124, finger style or strummed. Just oooooozes vibe and class.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2022 3:28:12 GMT -6
Do you guys all really compress acoustic guitars on the way in? I find compression so finicky on acoustic guitars that I often don't compress them at all going in. Seems like there's such a fine line between "tamed" and "quacky and ruined" that I don't usually bother unless there's a part that actually calls for an over-compressed acoustic (in which case I usually reach for Audioscape Opto, I like the pumping). For context, I tend to go for a dark/woody acoustic style like you might hear on Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan records. No SDC's here, gimme that dirt! Yep, with a 2A it'll make the guitar "pop" and smooth it out a bit. I don't go overboard or "overcompress" though we're talking 2 - 4dB whereas with a vocal I'd tend to crush it quite a bit. It depends if you like a more modern in your face / controlled represenation of an acoustic, if it's the lead part in a song and it also depends on the type of material you're aiming at. When acoustics are just background texture I'll probably not bother and just EQ / place into the room or verb aux.
However I think uncompressed acoustics generally sound boring.
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