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Post by M57 on Dec 29, 2022 8:19:41 GMT -6
I've noticed that a number of folks have been reticent about purchasing hardware that offers connectivity to DAWs, at least in part because they are concerned that when the format becomes obsolete, so will the hardware. However, I've also noticed that more and more are expressing interest/desire in some of the Bettermaker products. Are we softening our stance and willing to let down our guard? Or are the products that good regardless of whether or not you're taking advantage of their recall capabilities?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2022 8:55:53 GMT -6
Plugin / USB control is just a bonus, you can't remote control an LA-2A. If for any reason they decide not to bother with updates I still have a fully functional mastering limiter, the addons are nice but far from the primary reason I bought it.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 29, 2022 10:29:07 GMT -6
The guys who are interested haven’t been burned in the past. Until there is a standard protocol for control of hardware you’re rolling the dice. Gear that has the option of control via its own program vs plugin has slightly more appeal because while you may some point have to run it with a legacy computer and OS without supporting a legacy DAW.
The other fact, the circuitry for recall, ever looked at a SSL module ? Yeah most of that stuff is there for recall/ automation, now how much quieter would it be if it wasn’t there?
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Post by M57 on Dec 29, 2022 10:34:42 GMT -6
because while you may some point have to run it with a legacy computer and OS without supporting a legacy DAW. now how much quieter would it be if it wasn’t there? I think the point is you don't have to run it with anything if you don't want to, or if the remote option becomes obsolete.. As for how much quieter without, do you really think it has any impact? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 29, 2022 11:09:53 GMT -6
because while you may some point have to run it with a legacy computer and OS without supporting a legacy DAW. now how much quieter would it be if it wasn’t there? I think the point is you don't have to run it with anything if you don't want to, or if the remote option becomes obsolete.. As for how much quieter without, do you really think it has any impact? To me it feels like I'm paying for something I may never use. How much extra does it cost to get those features? However, reading the Bettermaker description just now it seems like a lot of the digital stuff is really about controlling the hardware. Kind of like the FMR products (yes, different ballpark I know). That I kind of like. Even though it's probably unrepairable, I feel like a simple self-contained set of digital controls is likely to last basically forever, unlike switches and relays. When was the last time the digital controls on your kitchen oven died? Exactly. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 29, 2022 11:14:25 GMT -6
because while you may some point have to run it with a legacy computer and OS without supporting a legacy DAW. now how much quieter would it be if it wasn’t there? I think the point is you don't have to run it with anything if you don't want to, or if the remote option becomes obsolete.. As for how much quieter without, do you really think it has any impact? Yes , you have to understand Full Compass's sister company Intelix primary products were large scale Digitally controlled analog matrix systems for large scale installs, so I learned all the fun of automation systems in a very interesting way. Also think of how much $ that all costs. One thing that I have noticed as we become more and DAW centric, these companies seldom budget for the cost of updating software due to platform changes. It will be interesting to see how many of the latest crop survive Apple Silicon change over. |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 29, 2022 17:24:19 GMT -6
I've noticed that a number of folks have been reticent about purchasing hardware that offers connectivity to DAWs, at least in part because they are concerned that when the format becomes obsolete, so will the hardware. However, I've also noticed that more and more are expressing interest/desire in some of the Bettermaker products. Are we softening our stance and willing to let down our guard? Or are the products that good regardless of whether or not you're taking advantage of their recall capabilities? You know, I think these products are amazing. The Wes Audio gear does offer incredible functionality and even if the software becomes obsolete you can still operate the modules from the front controls. My personal reticence is how they achieve digital control. Access analog achieve digital control over their racks by physically robotically controlling the analog pots (I think some of the Tegeler gear works this way. So motorized analog pots seems a great solution. But with Wes Audio gear (as an example) the control is achieved by implementing a VCA for every parameter that needs controlling and in the average EQ or Compressor (especially stereo) that's your signal passing though one heap of VCA chips. I need to understand and test exactly what impact, if any, that is having on the recorded signal. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Dec 29, 2022 22:01:10 GMT -6
I Love it!
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 30, 2022 1:55:25 GMT -6
Don’t rub it in !  |
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Post by subspace on Dec 30, 2022 8:46:14 GMT -6
My non-recallable gear will work that way forever, whereas my automated stuff will be recallable for as long as I run compatible software, after that it will work just like the non-recallable stuff. I'd avoid the no controls on the face plate type units.
Currently have a Wes Audio _dione and the little VCA automated Audient desk, so pretty traditional VCA applications. The Audient design was sold to Focusrite and then killed off a few years later, but Audient has updated the software as it's used as the control surface/automation option on their Heritage ASP8024 desk.
I'm using an Avid Carbon to feed the desk's 8 automated channels plus an additional stereo input with the _dione controlling it's level. The Carbon's analog preamp settings can be controlled and stored in the PT session, but like the other units can be manually controlled from the front panel as well. So if Pro Tools goes away I can still use it as a general AVB interface, but I'll have a whole different recall problem if that's the case...
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Post by M57 on Dec 30, 2022 8:56:32 GMT -6
My non-recallable gear will work that way forever, whereas my automated stuff will be recallable for as long as I run compatible software, after that it will work just like the non-recallable stuff. I'd avoid the no controls on the face plate type units. I'm pretty sure the Bettermaker units like the passive EQ have full control on the faceplate, though the boost and cut settings have no numbers. |
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Post by sean on Dec 30, 2022 9:10:27 GMT -6
My non-recallable gear will work that way forever, whereas my automated stuff will be recallable for as long as I run compatible software, after that it will work just like the non-recallable stuff. I'd avoid the no controls on the face plate type units. Currently have a Wes Audio _dione and the little VCA automated Audient desk, so pretty traditional VCA applications. The Audient design was sold to Focusrite and then killed off a few years later, but Audient has updated the software as it's used as the control surface/automation option on their Heritage ASP8024 desk. I'm using an Avid Carbon to feed the desk's 8 automated channels plus an additional stereo input with the _dione controlling it's level. The Carbon's analog preamp settings can be controlled and stored in the PT session, but like the other units can be manually controlled from the front panel as well. So if Pro Tools goes away I can still use it as a general AVB interface, but I'll have a whole different recall problem if that's the case... Do you have a ASP2802? I was curious about those and wondered if the automation still works with current Pro Tools. |
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Post by subspace on Dec 30, 2022 9:46:28 GMT -6
My non-recallable gear will work that way forever, whereas my automated stuff will be recallable for as long as I run compatible software, after that it will work just like the non-recallable stuff. I'd avoid the no controls on the face plate type units. I'm pretty sure the Bettermaker units like the passive EQ have full control on the faceplate, though the boost and cut settings have no numbers. They had no controls versions of each unit as well, I was actually considering the VCA compressor one as it can switch from stereo SSL bus operation to two independent mono dbx style compressors. Haven't ventured into VCA controlled EQs, they're pretty simple to shoot a response curve of plus front panel snapshot, just added the SSL UV to the Audient/_dione set-up.  |
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Post by subspace on Dec 30, 2022 9:57:15 GMT -6
My non-recallable gear will work that way forever, whereas my automated stuff will be recallable for as long as I run compatible software, after that it will work just like the non-recallable stuff. I'd avoid the no controls on the face plate type units. Currently have a Wes Audio _dione and the little VCA automated Audient desk, so pretty traditional VCA applications. The Audient design was sold to Focusrite and then killed off a few years later, but Audient has updated the software as it's used as the control surface/automation option on their Heritage ASP8024 desk. I'm using an Avid Carbon to feed the desk's 8 automated channels plus an additional stereo input with the _dione controlling it's level. The Carbon's analog preamp settings can be controlled and stored in the PT session, but like the other units can be manually controlled from the front panel as well. So if Pro Tools goes away I can still use it as a general AVB interface, but I'll have a whole different recall problem if that's the case... Do you have a ASP2802? I was curious about those and wondered if the automation still works with current Pro Tools. Yep, just updated to PT 2022.12 and still run the 2802 as a HUI control surface. I've always run the VCA automation via 8 MIDI tracks so I haven't had to worry about updates to the FaderLink plug-in, I should give it a go with the latest release. |
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Post by drumsound on Dec 30, 2022 10:02:25 GMT -6
I love the concept of all of these. If I somehow became mostly a mixer, I think I'd sell off things and rebuild with a few key pieces from both Bettermaker and Wes. As mentioned, I'd probably only get things that still had knobs and can operate without the computer section.
Someone mentions FMR, and yeah, my RNCs still work fine. The Distressor is also digitally controlled analog. It's a proven system.
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Post by plinker on Dec 30, 2022 10:29:23 GMT -6
I've noticed that a number of folks have been reticent about purchasing hardware that offers connectivity to DAWs, at least in part because they are concerned that when the format becomes obsolete, so will the hardware. However, I've also noticed that more and more are expressing interest/desire in some of the Bettermaker products. Are we softening our stance and willing to let down our guard? Or are the products that good regardless of whether or not you're taking advantage of their recall capabilities? You know, I think these products are amazing. The Wes Audio gear does offer incredible functionality and even if the software becomes obsolete you can still operate the modules from the front controls. My personal reticence is how they achieve digital control. Access analog achieve digital control over their racks by physically robotically controlling the analog pots (I think some of the Tegeler gear works this way. So motorized analog pots seems a great solution. But with Wes Audio gear (as an example) the control is achieved by implementing a VCA for every parameter that needs controlling and in the average EQ or Compressor (especially stereo) that's your signal passing though one heap of VCA chips. I need to understand and test exactly what impact, if any, that is having on the recorded signal. I don’t believe the audio signal is passed through those parameter controllers. Looking at the rackmount units I see both usb and Ethernet connectors. They likely use digital rotary controllers on the units. |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 30, 2022 12:06:39 GMT -6
You know, I think these products are amazing. The Wes Audio gear does offer incredible functionality and even if the software becomes obsolete you can still operate the modules from the front controls. My personal reticence is how they achieve digital control. Access analog achieve digital control over their racks by physically robotically controlling the analog pots (I think some of the Tegeler gear works this way. So motorized analog pots seems a great solution. But with Wes Audio gear (as an example) the control is achieved by implementing a VCA for every parameter that needs controlling and in the average EQ or Compressor (especially stereo) that's your signal passing though one heap of VCA chips. I need to understand and test exactly what impact, if any, that is having on the recorded signal. I don’t believe the audio signal is passed through those parameter controllers. Looking at the rackmount units I see both usb and Ethernet connectors. They likely use digital rotary controllers on the units. I think you'll find the signal passes though VCA's. Quote SOS review of Wes Audio digitally controlled EQ. Unless a designer implements motorize analog pots, I can't see any other way of controlling the signal without VCA's .... lot's of them. The controls on the front of the Wes Audio units digitally control those VCA's - thus the plugin in control can be implimented. The signal doesn't pass through the control pots - it passes through the VCA's .... that's the part I would need to understand more about the possible (if any) sonic impact. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 30, 2022 12:35:51 GMT -6
I don’t believe the audio signal is passed through those parameter controllers. Looking at the rackmount units I see both usb and Ethernet connectors. They likely use digital rotary controllers on the units. I think you'll find the signal passes though VCA's. Quote SOS review of Wes Audio digitally controlled EQ. Unless a designer implements motorize analog pots, I can't see any other way of controlling the signal without VCA's .... lot's of them. The controls on the front of the Wes Audio units digitally control those VCA's - thus the plugin in control can be implimented. The signal doesn't pass through the control pots - it passes through the VCA's .... that's the part I would need to understand more about the possible (if any) sonic impact. Oh where is Savart who can explain this better! You have DCA’s digitally controlled amplifiers as well, but DCA’s and VCA’s and motorized pots are only needed if you have Dynamic automation. For simple recall you can do it much easier, a ganged pot where one of the elements just passes a “ control voltage “ then the circuit converters that to some digital protocol and you then turn the pot till it indicates that your back at the position, this is how recall of 90% of the settings on SSL, Neve Amek, and Otari consoles work. You can recall everything on an Otari Status but each channel only has 2 VCA’s one for big fader one for small fader. An API with snapshot has zero VCA’s in the Aux module. |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 30, 2022 16:13:18 GMT -6
I think you'll find the signal passes though VCA's. Quote SOS review of Wes Audio digitally controlled EQ. Unless a designer implements motorize analog pots, I can't see any other way of controlling the signal without VCA's .... lot's of them. The controls on the front of the Wes Audio units digitally control those VCA's - thus the plugin in control can be implimented. The signal doesn't pass through the control pots - it passes through the VCA's .... that's the part I would need to understand more about the possible (if any) sonic impact. Oh where is Savart who can explain this better! You have DCA’s digitally controlled amplifiers as well, but DCA’s and VCA’s and motorized pots are only needed if you have Dynamic automation. For simple recall you can do it much easier, a ganged pot where one of the elements just passes a “ control voltage “ then the circuit converters that to some digital protocol and you then turn the pot till it indicates that your back at the position, this is how recall of 90% of the settings on SSL, Neve Amek, and Otari consoles work. You can recall everything on an Otari Status but each channel only has 2 VCA’s one for big fader one for small fader. An API with snapshot has zero VCA’s in the Aux module. I guess the point is Wes Audio uses VCA's to control his devices. I've considered getting into his system, but I need to organise a demo of some of the 500 modules to see if the VCA's are implemented in a way that doesn't negatively impact the audio path. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Dec 30, 2022 20:27:30 GMT -6
I guess the point is Wes Audio uses VCA's to control his devices. I've considered getting into his system, but I need to organise a demo of some of the 500 modules to see if the VCA's are implemented in a way that doesn't negatively impact the audio path. Overall, you have to consider the money put into that type of a thing. Like how important is complete digital recall? If I had clients I might feel that it's super important, but if you're just doing your own stuff you should consider how much of the cost of a computer plugin recallable unit is all the digital shit going on. And, how would you actually be able to know what the VCA's are doing if you didn't have the identical unit without the VCA's? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 30, 2022 20:33:33 GMT -6
I guess the point is Wes Audio uses VCA's to control his devices. I've considered getting into his system, but I need to organise a demo of some of the 500 modules to see if the VCA's are implemented in a way that doesn't negatively impact the audio path. Overall, you have to consider the money put into that type of a thing. Like how important is complete digital recall? If I had clients I might feel that it's super important, but if you're just doing your own stuff you should consider how much of the cost of a computer plugin recallable unit is all the digital shit going on. And, how would you actually be able to know what the VCA's are doing if you didn't have the identical unit without the VCA's? One other thing that nobody ever asks about recallable gear is how accurate is the recall? What’s the bit depth of your protocol and how does that translate into reality? This in the past as moved many beyond recall and back to the IPhone camera. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Dec 30, 2022 20:37:37 GMT -6
One other thing that nobody ever asks about recallable gear is how accurate is the recall? What’s the bit depth of your protocol and how does that translate into reality? This in the past as moved many beyond recall and back to the IPhone camera. With the ngBusComp, recall was super accurate. At some point though, when it wasn't making violent love to me sonically, that's when I started thinking about the "what am I paying for" angle. No slam on the ngBusComp, just wasn't my jam. Doesn't mean it isn't amazing. |
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Post by M57 on Dec 30, 2022 20:43:19 GMT -6
One other thing that nobody ever asks about recallable gear is how accurate is the recall? What’s the bit depth of your protocol and how does that translate into reality? This in the past as moved many beyond recall and back to the IPhone camera. I would think that the inaccuracy of the recall (settings) are insignificant in comparison to the amount of deviation that normally occurs with every pass on any piece of analog equipment that hasn't be touched. |
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Post by ericn on Dec 30, 2022 21:08:11 GMT -6
One other thing that nobody ever asks about recallable gear is how accurate is the recall? What’s the bit depth of your protocol and how does that translate into reality? This in the past as moved many beyond recall and back to the IPhone camera. I would think that the inaccuracy of the recall (settings) are insignificant in comparison to the amount of deviation that normally occurs with every pass on any piece of analog equipment that hasn't be touched. You would think, but knowing the resolution is well knowing. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 31, 2022 13:50:07 GMT -6
So this thread inspired me to take a look at some Bettermaker stuff, and I can see one piece in particular possibly interesting me.
That's the stereo Passive EQ.
In that case I can see recall being super useful even when I'm just working on my own projects (I often go months between having outside work if I'm deep in my own writing phase). I don't use outboard EQ at the end of hardware 2 bus chain because the EQ tweaks are so tiny that it's hard to just write the settings down.
That's an area where digital recall could be worth it.
But that's got me wondering. $1700 is a great price for stereo Pultec EQ if it's good. And it also includes all this digital programming? So what is this like the equivalent of a Klark Teknik unit but with digital recall? The numbers don't work for me. But I could be wrong, I want to be wrong!
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