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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2022 9:01:11 GMT -6
I’m tired of it. You know - you look at videos/pics of Sinatra, MJ, etc…and they’re often several feet from the mic. I’ve never really done that - usually about 12” away or so and probably sneak up closer without realizing. Do some singers use mic technique to decrease it? I know people have talked about tilting the capsule whatever degrees…never works for me.
Anybody here crank the pre a little more and back people away from the mic?
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Post by drumsound on Oct 29, 2022 10:06:56 GMT -6
I'll admit that I don't often remember to suggest the singer just back off the mic, unless the sound is totally blown out.
Some mics have great 'reach' and still sound quite present even with the singer back a ways, others, not so much. So that would need to be considered if you do back away. The tone you are looking for is important, and sometimes that is more important than other times.
One thing I will do is adjust the height of the mic. Above or below the mouth can be effective, but that's a little more tonal than dealing with sibilance, though it can help it too.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 29, 2022 10:47:38 GMT -6
For whatever the reason(s), tilting the business end left or right... From my mouth, seems to be even more effective than tilted downward. A flat-ish and/or dark side of Neutral response helps too. The only "super clear" LDC, that works well on me is the Chandler REDD. Ref C/FET Lewitt's/AT 4033's/let alone Silver Rode NT-1A's... Fuggedaboutit.  Sennie 441 & Vintage 421/RE20 & 635a/SM7/M88* & 201... IMHO among Usual Suspects for minimizing sibilance issues, within dynamics. Or just a quality Ribbon.  Chris P.S. I realize none of this might be news to both of you. But I was thinking mainly of any less experienced recordists (like me). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2022 10:58:03 GMT -6
Those video streaming codecs kill the high end.
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Post by bossanova on Oct 29, 2022 11:10:07 GMT -6
Distance and vertical axis helps me more than anything else, even if it's just an extra 6 inches away and 15-20 degrees pointed down from above.
I know people have talked about turning your head on SSS sounds but I've never been able to it and still keep a consistent sound/connection to what I'm singing.
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Post by crillemannen on Oct 29, 2022 12:11:40 GMT -6
1. Healthy distance, don't eat the mic.
2. You have about an 1" of wiggle room, you don't have to sing dead-on center of the capsule. Moving a few cm up or down can help allot
3. You can also sing with an angle 15-30° can help allot too.
Experiment !
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 29, 2022 12:23:49 GMT -6
All depends on the style of music I’m recording.
Some genres, there’s no way you’re ever going to get that “right up in your face” sound without actually being “right up on the mic” and heavily-compressed; how close depends on the mic and voice. So when it comes to sibilance-problems, in most of those cases, there’s no way of getting around it other than with the typical tools.
Other genres calls for more space and a more relaxed vibe. So depending on mic, singer, and room, I can get away with 1-3 feet back. Much more than that, I find there’s not enough warmth. All depending, even with space, I find there still can be sibilance-problems.
On the other hand, sometimes I feel people get a bit too scared with sibilance. There’s really nothing wrong with a bit.
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Post by christopher on Oct 29, 2022 12:24:03 GMT -6
Distance does feel weird to me so I started putting a dynamic on a stand up close that they can perform into. I got the idea when I saw a clip of a pop singer in a booth eating an SM7 while a vintage u47 was off to the side about knee high: if it were me I’d be capturing that 47! So I started capturing LDC a few feet away and a dynamic up close. Almost always delete the dynamic track during mixdown
To be honest distance didn’t get rid of sibilance as much as I hoped, I think some mics are just bad at it- it helped though and ended the horrid +24dB spikes at least.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 29, 2022 12:28:57 GMT -6
I often have the mic hanging from above and tilted down, off axis, pointing more towards the singers upper lip/nose. So that their breath is aimed just below the capsule. Helps with plosives a lot. And I find that around 16” away is usually a good sweet spot but very dependent on the mic. My shiny box ribbon really shines with about 2ft of distance. I think this where having a nice sounding room is very important. The nicer the room the easier it is to back off the mic and not get weird reflections.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 29, 2022 12:32:04 GMT -6
What Doug and Chris are both suggesting is really the same thing different methods but same thing, get a little off axis. The other thing you can do is use an RTA Or FFT on your phone, sweep a narrow notch find it both by listening and watching and see if you can get rid of it without being to destructive.
The more expensive solutions
1 find a desser you like hardware or software
2 different mic
3 the JJP John Meyer more money than brains solution: use a Pultec and Fairchild in the side chain of something just as expensive. Sad thing is it works.
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Post by reddirt on Oct 29, 2022 15:28:08 GMT -6
Yes a 'dummy' dynamic on and the main mic a bit off axis, still facing at the mouth is a good place to start.
In post, i love the solution rpwmat posted some time back where you duplicate and flip phase on the track then automate that track to cancel by the amount you need.
Once you've a bug against sibilance it really gnaws away; interestingly I heard Janis Ian's at 17 yesterday which I've always thought sounded terrific yet there was heaps of sibilance relative to my ever growing nazi like standard. - Didnt stop that becoming a world wide hit.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by chessparov on Oct 29, 2022 17:29:26 GMT -6
This is a demo vocal recording, where it's hard for me to judge the "esses". Please keep in mind it's another "one take"/Off the cuff recording. Done in a small rectangular/non-treated conference room. (OK enough excuses! ) Chris |
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Post by sirthought on Oct 29, 2022 18:40:40 GMT -6
I tend to keep people back further than others do. A lot of performers are jostled by this, and I've wondered if I'm hurting the performance by not letting them crowd up there more. But a while ago I heard about Morrissey standing as much as six feet away and just using the preamp to do the work, along with a strong voice. He never has sibilance. I tend to push more for 18-30 inches, 8" is the closest I'll allow.
This does mean I'm working on gain levels later, which is a bit annoying on some dynamic performances. Sometimes if there is supposed to be a line that is more whisper sung I'll track that separately.
The truth is I'm never a good judge at using de-essing, so I really want to avoid it. Too much? Too little? Killing the clarity? I never feel confident in that. I do feel confident I can turn up a gain knob and allow that S sound to decay naturally.
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Post by Ward on Oct 30, 2022 15:00:29 GMT -6
I’m tired of it. You know - you look at videos/pics of Sinatra, MJ, etc…and they’re often several feet from the mic. I’ve never really done that - usually about 12” away or so and probably sneak up closer without realizing. Do some singers use mic technique to decrease it? I know people have talked about tilting the capsule whatever degrees…never works for me. Anybody here crank the pre a little more and back people away from the mic? Probably best to avoid using a Steadman pop filter. There are great software de-essers. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 30, 2022 15:07:20 GMT -6
Who uses a steadman pop filter?
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Post by recordingengineer on Oct 30, 2022 15:34:40 GMT -6
I had someone bring on over and leave a Stedman at my studio many years ago. I used it along with the other random fabric ones I had. I used them interchangeably for a year without any concern in a very large and live room.
Fast-forward to now and the studio I work out of has a few Stedmans. I used one on a Warm 8000 for a Bangladeshi female vocalist and think I might have finally heard the Stedman problem people talk about. Not sure. I’ve since bought the Blast Pad. Sticking with it!
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 30, 2022 17:33:33 GMT -6
Unfortunately no pop filter is perfect, it depends on mic, singer and room. I know a couple of guys who have a handful of different pop filters for this reason. In the greater scheme of things these things are far cheaper than a cache of great mics.
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 30, 2022 19:18:44 GMT -6
Who uses a steadman pop filter? I have a few Steadmans. I really like them. I prefer them to my Rycote pop filter that came with my shock mount. The Steadmans do impart a sound, but not a bad one. That said, they really work preventing pops. As for distance from the mic, the thing about watching Sinatra or MJ is they were recording in great rooms. Great rooms with great natural reverb. I recorded a live concert with solo vocalists, choir, and a small orchestra, and it just sounded great. No one was closer than 2ft from the mic, but we were in a huge Catholic Church. Recording in a smaller home space is a little tough if your room doesn’t sound nice. I can’t eat the mic. I have always been someone who recorded a little further from the mic, anywhere between 8” to 36”. I tend to record between 8” and 18” in my room depending on the genre. My room is a lot more tame since I upgraded the treatment which is nice. As for tilting the mic, I would say it really depends on the mic. I prefer to sing directly into my U87ai, TLM49, and MKU67. My FleA 49 and Pearlman TM-1s (or any 47 style mic) I like to position the mic a little above my mouth and then angle it down toward my mouth. If I don’t, I feel those kinds of mics get a little woofy on my voice. You really have to play around with mics you have and find their sweet spot. Sometimes being just slightly off access will help. I don’t generally like turning the mics to the side and singing off access that way. I just don’t really like how that sounds. Below is a photo of the positioning I like with M49 and U47 style mics. I’m about 8” off the mic singing my pop song, “Spanish Eyes” from my FleA video. Attachment Deleted |
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Post by chessparov on Oct 30, 2022 19:43:35 GMT -6
Just don't ever use a Pop Filter in a small apartment.
It'll be a little Flat.
Chris
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 30, 2022 20:21:22 GMT -6
Just don't ever use a Pop Filter in a small apartment. It'll be a little Flat. Chris that was a good one |
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Post by winterland on Oct 30, 2022 20:21:58 GMT -6
Some voices are just that way and for me a good de-esser in the mix will take care of it. My favorite still is the Waves R De-sser. I like that you can zero in on the exact peak frequency. I use an analyzer to look at where the culprit is.
Yes it is worth trying different mics and positioning. You can also edit, turn down the volume of them but a de-esser will take care of it. Of course if there are just a couple bad spots you can just pull those back in volume.
It is a thing that does bother me when listening to music on great systems or headphones. Cheaper playback such as bluetooth speakers etc don't usually reveal the sibilance.
I will hear a successful song with sibilance that bothers me and I always wonder if it is just me. I will then play some songs that I know I love the vocal sound to check my ears.
I then hear no sibilance and am assured that it doesn't need to be a thing on any recording.
A couple references for me are Pink Floyd Animals and Dark Side. The vocals sound so good.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 30, 2022 21:04:43 GMT -6
It depends on the mic. I tend to stay back a bit with a little more gain. The Chandler REDD 47 is the only mic I've tried that still sounds the same at a distance. A vintage U67 does that trick pretty well too.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 30, 2022 21:27:30 GMT -6
So does the Beesneez BU67. Along with two of the U67 Reissues I've tried...
Chris
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Post by chessparov on Oct 30, 2022 21:30:13 GMT -6
Some voices are just that way and for me a good de-esser in the mix will take care of it. My favorite still is the Waves R De-sser. I like that you can zero in on the exact peak frequency. I use an analyzer to look at where the culprit is. Yes it is worth trying different mics and positioning. You can also edit, turn down the volume of them but a de-esser will take care of it. Of course if there are just a couple bad spots you can just pull those back in volume. It is a thing that does bother me when listening to music on great systems or headphones. Cheaper playback such as bluetooth speakers etc don't usually reveal the sibilance. I will hear a successful song with sibilance that bothers me and I always wonder if it is just me. I will then play some songs that I know I love the vocal sound to check my ears. I then hear no sibilance and am assured that it doesn't need to be a thing on any recording. A couple references for me are Pink Floyd Animals and Dark Side. The vocals sound so good. Even Klaus has said effectively, on a super sibilant singer... Sometimes a Ribbon is the easier call. Chris |
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Post by svart on Oct 31, 2022 10:53:35 GMT -6
Never really had problems with sibilance in my better mics.
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