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Post by RealNoob on Sept 14, 2022 10:06:28 GMT -6
It seems with demos I am listening to - EQs, that there is an immediacy that they bring to a sound or track that plugins miss. They seem to get punchy and up front.
Am I finally hearing like I should or crazy?
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Post by bchurch on Sept 14, 2022 10:17:42 GMT -6
Well, hold up. Remember that in the context of many modern setups, hardware EQ's are being run as inserts from a digital session, so they're likely going through an addition D/A/D cycle. Unless you're going out across 48+ sticks of an analog console, there's going to be a slight compromise in routing out to an analog processor, be it compression, eq, or otherwise.
I feel you. I like my digital stuff for some things and I like my analog stuff for other things. I don't need my analog toy box. In a desert island situation, I could certainly mix a record with just plug-ins. But I don't have to, so I still indulge my troglodyte side with all those knobs and meters. Maybe some of it is tactile, too - I like closing my eyes and turning a pot by hand to find the 'right there' without the influence of seeing a spectral display.
"Immediacy" is a somewhat subjective term (in an industry that loves subjective terms... how's your "warm" or "mojo" doing today?) I like the SSL-styled EQ's for that - but I don't "get it" from the software versions. Still sounds brittle and two-dimensional to my ears.
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Post by smashlord on Sept 14, 2022 11:10:13 GMT -6
I feel like HW has a larger sweet spot, especially compressors. In my experience, its a bit easier to get something punchy/upfront because it at least seems you can hit things a little bit harder before it sounds lifeless or unnatural. Now, that doesn't mean I can't get the same result ITB....but I may have to use several plugins doing little bits to do what I can do quickly with one EQ and/or compressor in the HW realm. As far as immediacy with EQ, I still feel HW has an edge when it comes to boosting top end....you can get an extra couple of dB before it starts sounding brittle or harsh.
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Post by drbill on Sept 14, 2022 11:27:22 GMT -6
IME, the round trip DA/AD means nothing. The immediate gain of the analog gear means EVERYthing. Hybrid is where it's at for me. There is an intangible that plugins cannot emulate. They can DO what hardware DOES - i.e they can compress, they can tonally EQ, they can saturate, etc., but they cannot ANALOG-ize like real tactile gear does. I've done the comparisons. Worked every which way. We are not there yet with plugins, and may never be. I don't know on that one.
Plus - and this is certainly instantly tangible - being surrounded by gear in a physical space brings an energy to the workflow that digital plugins will NEVER EVER EVER achieve on a 2D screen. Also - having 2 units of the same manufacture that do not EXACTLY react the same is a big deal too. And some mornings, they may be further off that others. The digital perfectionists may get aggravated with this, but it brings beauty and humanity into the mix.
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2022 11:35:02 GMT -6
I think there’s something psychological, and tangible, about having your hands on an actual knob. It allows part of your brain to relax because you’re not looking at a screen and for me, I listen better. Like the others have said, with HW I’m not really caring about the “numbers”, just how it sounds. With plugins I’m always second guessing my self because a +12 db high shelf just LOOKS CRAZY, lol, but is sometimes exactly what is needed. I also think HW is generally more forgiving. That being said it could all be placebo, lol. BUT, placebo is real…as in it effects results in reality, so I’ll stick with it
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Sept 14, 2022 11:57:45 GMT -6
Saw the title and I thought this had to do with a conversation Ward and I had about latency and analog hardware Ward and I had yesterday!
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Post by svart on Sept 14, 2022 12:13:17 GMT -6
I used to believe this very thing. Hardware just got you more excitement quicker.
The problem is that when I went back to blind A/B, I found that the "obvious" immediacy wasn't there. Knowing which one was which I could tell the difference.. If you get my drift.
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Post by bchurch on Sept 14, 2022 12:54:01 GMT -6
Knowing which one was which I could tell the difference.. If you get my drift. The one with the blinking lights and fancy dials and switches always sounds better.
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Post by drbill on Sept 14, 2022 12:54:45 GMT -6
IMO, if you like it better when you do it, it IS better. Beginning and End of story. Doesn't matter if it's a Strat vs. Les Paul, Moog vs. Oberheim, Neumann vs. AKG or Digital vs. Analog. If you think it is better - it IS better. Because "better" no matter how you define it, makes you more creative. And that's the end game. For me, that's Analog. Whether or not I can pick it out of a blind A/B. Digital always leaves me feeling blah....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2022 13:08:15 GMT -6
IMO, if you like it better when you do it, it IS better. Beginning and End of story. Doesn't matter if it's a Strat vs. Les Paul, Moog vs. Oberheim, Neumann vs. AKG or Digital vs. Analog. If you think it is better - it IS better. Because "better" no matter how you define it, makes you more creative. And that's the end game. For me, that's Analog. Whether or not I can pick it out of a blind A/B. Digital always leaves me feeling blah.... There’s also way less less analog processors that totally suck outside of the cheap crap and Chinesium.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2022 14:23:56 GMT -6
I feel like HW has a larger sweet spot, especially compressors. In my experience, its a bit easier to get something punchy/upfront because it at least seems you can hit things a little bit harder before it sounds lifeless or unnatural. Now, that doesn't mean I can't get the same result ITB....but I may have to use several plugins doing little bits to do what I can do quickly with one EQ and/or compressor in the HW realm. As far as immediacy with EQ, I still feel HW has an edge when it comes to boosting top end....you can get an extra couple of dB before it starts sounding brittle or harsh. Well most digital dynamics processors suck. They simply don’t work well and are gritty, grimy overshooting pumpy messes because the sidechain signals are so aliased at 44.1 or 48khz in traditional compressor designs. The peak detectors and smoothing filters (attack/release and the switching between various co-efficients) simply don’t work and sidechain has distortion bouncing off the nyquist frequency and dc That being said there were always decent ones available, eg Oxford Dynamics, Renaissance Compressor, and OldTimer, and now several rival any hardware. Right now I’m obsessed with Sound Radix Powair.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 14, 2022 14:56:51 GMT -6
Mo blinking lights = mo better !
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Post by drbill on Sept 14, 2022 16:36:01 GMT -6
Mo blinking lights = mo better ! YUP!!! The plugins don't give me this kinda feel.... And feel makes creativity mo better too!! Attachment Deleted
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Post by ragan on Sept 14, 2022 16:54:28 GMT -6
If HW had lost or tied the shootouts I’ve done, I’d have gladly moved on. But it’s always won, blind. Lots of cool DSP that I use and love, but for the heavy lifting of tone shaping, I use HW whenever possible.
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Post by drbill on Sept 14, 2022 17:00:34 GMT -6
If HW had lost or tied the shootouts I’ve done, I’d have gladly moved on. But it’s always won, blind. Lots of cool DSP that I use and love, but for the heavy lifting of tone shaping, I use HW whenever possible. Yup. I don't want to come off like I never use plugins - like you, I use them every day. They are sometimes better at certain jobs than analog gear, but the analog gear gets pulled up first, and sometimes a plug for a finishing touch.
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Post by bchurch on Sept 14, 2022 17:48:06 GMT -6
Yup. I don't want to come off like I never use plugins - like you, I use them every day. They are sometimes better at certain jobs than analog gear, but the analog gear gets pulled up first, and sometimes a plug for a finishing touch. I tend to work the exact opposite. Hardware on groups and 2-mix, plugins for the basic chores. Actually, "plugins" only applies to delay/reverb/modulation - Cubase has an amazingly robust channel strip.
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Post by ragan on Sept 14, 2022 18:00:23 GMT -6
Yup. I don't want to come off like I never use plugins - like you, I use them every day. They are sometimes better at certain jobs than analog gear, but the analog gear gets pulled up first, and sometimes a plug for a finishing touch. I tend to work the exact opposite. Hardware on groups and 2-mix, plugins for the basic chores. Actually, "plugins" only applies to delay/reverb/modulation - Cubase has an amazingly robust channel strip. "Delay/reverb/modulation" is where I lean heavy on plugins too.
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Post by bluesholyman on Sept 15, 2022 6:22:41 GMT -6
Plugins don't give off a smell like warm hardware, so hardware sounds better - this is wholly scientific, I promise.
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Post by bchurch on Sept 15, 2022 6:57:16 GMT -6
Plugins don't give off a smell like warm hardware, so hardware sounds better - this is wholly scientific, I promise. Many of the people here grew up in the era of science fiction movies and tv and saw these insane space ship control decks - panel after panel of blinking lights, bakelite dials, meters, all that goodness. And, with every piece we added to our studios (or the studios we worked at), manning the controls of a 48+ fader console, racks of outboard, all in an architecturally-bizarre room - we felt like Hans Solo, or Ripley, or a Klingon, what have you. In the 80's and 90's, sci-fi modernized and the big amazing tool was the computer. Think of War Games or Hackers. "Ohhhh.... a InterTech XPX 5000!" One is a lot more visually captivating. Or, as I once semi-famously said to an outspoken ITB engineer, "you will never impress a client with the size of your plug-ins folder." It's all visual, of course. And you can make a great record in, out, or half-way inside the box. I like my big rack of toys. They run without an authorization app. They never need updating. They rarely, if ever, crash.
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Post by christopher on Sept 15, 2022 9:51:19 GMT -6
I’m a guitarist first, spinning knobs on an amp, guitar, and pedals was the quick way find a unique sound. In rehearsal with 4 other talented guys ready to go, I got 30 seconds between songs to dial in something, it’s easy to change a bunch of things. Or try a new sound. There is immediacy to using hardware. I think I timed myself once, I could do 3x as many moves in hardware than software at minimum. To me that means 1 hour at a desk would take me 3 hours ITB. And then think about my mindset and emotions.. how do I feel at the 1 hour point in a movie? How do I feel at the 3 hour point? Very different.. at 1 hour I’m totally engaged, at 3 hours, I want something totally different
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Post by RealNoob on Sept 15, 2022 10:12:25 GMT -6
I listened to a few demos of gear lately. Some that really impacted me were 1)Demo of running a mix through Elysia Skulptor mic pres and other gear and 2) Heider demo with Colt Capperune. Downloadable files of Heider recordings.
I am hearing things my plugins don't do.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 15, 2022 10:25:12 GMT -6
I find the fun factor huge with HW, negligible with plug ins.
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Post by schmalzy on Sept 15, 2022 11:23:15 GMT -6
I don't think I've ever understood the "fun" thing of hardware.
The fun part for me is literally the song. I love the songs. I love making the songs better. I love looking for ways to tie the emotional content to the audio content. I love looking for ways to make it all groove harder. I love creating moments. I love slogging through it all trying to find a way to make the bass lock more with the kick. I love the guitar vs banjo vs mandolin vs vocal dance...and I love when the song's done and I can move on to the next song I'm also going to love.
I set hardware, experience some anxiety about making sure I have good recall notes, tweak the hardware, tweak notes, tweak anxiety, tweak hardware, tweak notes, tweak anxiety, delete old photos from phone, tweak hardware, tweak notes, land on safe settings that are easy to recall, need a little more so I get it in the box, get revision notes from another artist, recall that analog, send a set of test signals, print the "can you add a huge bass drop here" mix, recall the previous settings, double-check the patches, absolutely fucking forget something...and it goes forever. Until the next day when I use everything for some drum tracking and I another mix revision for 10% more bass drop.
That said, damn I love running the master out through a set of preamps/channel strips and some analog compression. My Stam SA4000 MkI still sounds awesome as does my recently serviced-and-modded Alctron CPS 540 compressors. That stuff definitely sounds awesome.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Sept 15, 2022 13:29:42 GMT -6
I listened to a few demos of gear lately. Some that really impacted me were 1)Demo of running a mix through Elysia Skulptor mic pres and other gear and 2) Heider demo with Colt Capperune. Downloadable files of Heider recordings. I am hearing things my plugins don't do. I’d be curious to hear the files ran through the Heiders. Are they available somewhere?
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 15, 2022 14:39:47 GMT -6
I'm not so quick to be totally sold on the hardware camp.
Yes, if we're talking stereo then there's some magic in hardware. Yes, if we're talking real tubes and real transformers and point to point hand wiring - hardware hands down. Yes, to mix processing stereo hardware compressors and EQ's - my go to is hardware.
But here's the thing.
I very carefully ABX double blind tested a single mono snare track being EQ's by the Sonnox EQ plugin and then sending the snare out to a Millennia STT-1 channel strip and using the STT-1 EQ in solid state mode (this is a very expensive hardware channel strip) and I and others found it impossible to tell which was which - we were ultimately just guessing.
So hardware yes, in important places (like the mix bus) but there are other areas I'm very comfortable with plugins.
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