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Post by jcoutu1 on May 4, 2022 11:44:00 GMT -6
The Apogee Quartet seems like a much better value to me. Agreed. I wish the Quartet was still supported/current. I'm not seeing much in the high end, lower channel count market. I'm looking for something that I expect a million people are looking for. Basically, I want to be able to send a stereo track out of the d/a, through some hardware, capture it back through the a/d, and monitor through another pair of outputs for my monitors. 2 or 3 additional headphone outputs would be great when tracking. Talkback would also be a plus. Basically a versatile stereo tracking unit that can also serve a pseudo mastering role.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 11:51:04 GMT -6
Remember this is the apogee desktop not the symphony mkii, same converters but different chip and chassis and psu too, I would think. I like the desktop da, but I also listen back to a recording done with the Aurora but then playback through it and then the desktop. I wasn’t trying to do a pristine recording, just wanted to hear the two interfaces , recognizing the inconsistency of the pres. When I had my symphony mkii I thought about buying its 4 pre module which includes converters but held off, so was interested to hear the apogee pre. Anyway: 1 is Daking, Aurora n 2 is Apogee desktop 3 Daking and apogee I think they all sound good. Jesse, I had trouble getting the plug in authentication to work, it’s sorted now, but I haven’t tried them , other then opening the channel strip to have a look at it. You touch the screen and use the rotary control for adjustment, works fine, very immediate. I’ll play around more with that and let you know. 1 was good but muted a bit. Has the Lynx warmth. 2 was really warm and didn't pop or bloom out as much and also more "in the speakers". 3 was the best imo. I really liked the clean highs on 3.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 11:51:45 GMT -6
The Apogee Quartet seems like a much better value to me. Agreed. I wish the Quartet was still supported/current. I'm not seeing much in the high end, lower channel count market. I'm looking for something that I expect a million people are looking for. Basically, I want to be able to send a stereo track out of the d/a, through some hardware, capture it back through the a/d, and monitor through another pair of outputs for my monitors. 2 or 3 additional headphone outputs would be great when tracking. Talkback would also be a plus. Basically a versatile stereo tracking unit that can also serve a pseudo mastering role. The Symphony Desktop is obviously meant for ITB. Lynx Hilo but it has no onboard fx to monitor off the mixer. Prism Lyra 2 maybe? The Prism stuff is really good and has a better high end than the Lynx.
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Post by notneeson on May 4, 2022 11:59:32 GMT -6
Agreed. I wish the Quartet was still supported/current. I'm not seeing much in the high end, lower channel count market. I'm looking for something that I expect a million people are looking for. Basically, I want to be able to send a stereo track out of the d/a, through some hardware, capture it back through the a/d, and monitor through another pair of outputs for my monitors. 2 or 3 additional headphone outputs would be great when tracking. Talkback would also be a plus. Basically a versatile stereo tracking unit that can also serve a pseudo mastering role. Lynx Hilo but it has no onboard fx to monitor off the mixer. Prism Lyra 2 maybe? The Prism stuff is really good and has a better high end than the Lynx. Quantitatively better high end via specs? Or you like it better in your hands on use of the box? I resist the notion that selecting converters is on the order of selecting a mic, or even a preamp. Should be well into cork sniffing territory at these price points, which is all well and good. Hyperbole has limited value here, in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 12:09:30 GMT -6
Lynx Hilo but it has no onboard fx to monitor off the mixer. Prism Lyra 2 maybe? The Prism stuff is really good and has a better high end than the Lynx. Quantitatively better high end via specs? Or you like it better in your hands on use of the box? I resist the notion that selecting converters is on the order of selecting a mic, or even a preamp. Should be well into cork sniffing territory at these price points, which is all well and good. Hyperbole has limited value here, in my opinion. The treble is perceptibly cleaner. The available specs don't mean much. If that was the case, a UAD Apollo or RME whatever would sound cleaner in the highs than Lynx and Lavry or as big as a Dangerous. But they don't, UAD sounds weird and middy and most of the revisions of RME products sound awful.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on May 4, 2022 12:15:17 GMT -6
as Ragan correctly pointed out, I played 3 closer to the bridge, so it naturally has that brighter sound, also what ever mojo goes on from the Daking to the converter, but on trs.
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Post by notneeson on May 4, 2022 12:27:49 GMT -6
Quantitatively better high end via specs? Or you like it better in your hands on use of the box? I resist the notion that selecting converters is on the order of selecting a mic, or even a preamp. Should be well into cork sniffing territory at these price points, which is all well and good. Hyperbole has limited value here, in my opinion. The treble is perceptibly cleaner. The available specs don't mean much. If that was the case, a UAD Apollo or RME whatever would sound cleaner in the highs than Lynx and Lavry or as big as a Dangerous. But they don't, UAD sounds weird and middy and most of the revisions of RME products sound awful. I find your characterization of the UAD overstated after listening to one last night for a few hours on material I know well. So it seems clear you’re just talking about your subjective experience, presumably hands on with all of these boxes?
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Post by ragan on May 4, 2022 13:16:29 GMT -6
Important to restate: the differences in those clips are almost certainly not due to converters.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 14:04:01 GMT -6
The treble is perceptibly cleaner. The available specs don't mean much. If that was the case, a UAD Apollo or RME whatever would sound cleaner in the highs than Lynx and Lavry or as big as a Dangerous. But they don't, UAD sounds weird and middy and most of the revisions of RME products sound awful. I find your characterization of the UAD overstated after listening to one last night for a few hours on material I know well. So it seems clear you’re just talking about your subjective experience, presumably hands on with all of these boxes? Yes. If you are used to it, that will be how you hear though and other stuff will be weird. UAD just sounds weird to me. You should use what you think sounds good and works with your computer because this is all subjective and there's a lot of products out there with major driver and durability issues.
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Post by notneeson on May 4, 2022 14:10:59 GMT -6
I find your characterization of the UAD overstated after listening to one last night for a few hours on material I know well. So it seems clear you’re just talking about your subjective experience, presumably hands on with all of these boxes? Yes. If you are used to it, that will be how you hear though and other stuff will be weird. UAD just sounds weird to me. I’m used to Avid Omni, old 192s, Presonus Quantum, Apogee Symphony, B2 Bomber, the old Lynx Auroras and so on from my work at various studios and my own gear. The UAD is at a buddy's home studio, I have worked there maybe 4 times in the last couple monhs.
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Post by wiz on May 4, 2022 16:22:13 GMT -6
Can you guys listen to tunes commercially released and tell what converters were used?
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Post by Guitar on May 4, 2022 16:30:31 GMT -6
Can you guys listen to tunes commercially released and tell what converters were used? Yes and not only that, I can tell you the names of every person in the room, what time each take was performed, what was eaten that day, who died that day, and the exact species of bugs within 1,000 feet of the vocal microphone. Music forums are a for(u)m of insanity.
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Post by tkaitkai on May 4, 2022 17:27:34 GMT -6
Just for some healthy perspective, I can almost never identify which mics/guitars/amps/synths are used in commercial records, either. Conversion matters to me because it makes an audible difference in my recordings. If someone else has a different experience, I'm not here to argue with that. Just offering my own experience. People made incredible recordings on the original Apollos + Aurora MKIs, for example. That's amazing, and I'm honestly jealous, because I tried for over 5 years to make them sound the way I heard things in my head, and it just never happened for me.
My Lavry gets me there effortlessly. And interestingly, so does my lowly Apogee Element (which cost me a whopping $300). I don't think you need to have super high end boutique converters to get the job done, but IMO, it's worth investigating whether or not your A/D is a bottleneck in your setup. Only you and your ears can make that call.
To be completely transparent, though, the differences between various AD/DA aren't big enough to where they would ever impact the commercial performance of a song, nor are they big enough to justify some of the hyperbole used to describe them (I'm very guilty). I sent off plenty of final mixes + session recordings made with my old Apollo/Aurora MKI setup, and never once had a complaint about the sound quality. But even if my clients couldn't hear it, I could hear it. And it was noticeable enough to impact how I, personally, approach recording/mixing/mastering. Anyway, though, I do agree that in the clip posted earlier, those differences are much more likely due to variations in mic placement + picking technique than A/D.
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Post by notneeson on May 4, 2022 18:46:58 GMT -6
Can you guys listen to tunes commercially released and tell what converters were used? That’s not a superpower, that’s a curse! I want to feel the music, not hear the gear! 😀 (That’s a no for me). Although, on sample heavy 90s stuff I do feel like the Akai MPC sound kinda comes through. I’m consulting on a rerelease of some 90s stuff that my former band mates did to DA88s through a Yammy DM2000 in a real, professionally designed room. Sounds pretty decent!!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 23:20:19 GMT -6
I find your characterization of the UAD overstated after listening to one last night for a few hours on material I know well. So it seems clear you’re just talking about your subjective experience, presumably hands on with all of these boxes? When it comes to audio interfaces I generally don't care, I've owned a Symphony Mk1, MH ULN-8, MOTU 1248 etc. and sure there's some slight tonal difference most likely attributed to the analog sections but outside of obsessive A/B'ing nah.. I couldn't really tell. Although sorry I have to agree with Dan here, the Apollo X6 I had for about two years sounded weird to me as well. I've looked over the audioscience reviews, UA's spec's and various other scientific sources but I still have no idea why. Irrelevant of specs it was still enough of an issue to take a $600.00 loss on it. " or even a preamp." Interfaces are packed full of analogue circuitry, they tend to be clean but if you think a preamp of all things makes a notable difference then an entire audio interface definitely will.
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Post by notneeson on May 5, 2022 8:41:47 GMT -6
I find your characterization of the UAD overstated after listening to one last night for a few hours on material I know well. So it seems clear you’re just talking about your subjective experience, presumably hands on with all of these boxes? When it comes to audio interfaces I generally don't care, I've owned a Symphony Mk1, MH ULN-8, MOTU 1248 etc. and sure there's some slight tonal difference most likely attributed to the analog sections but outside of obsessive A/B'ing nah.. I couldn't really tell. Although sorry I have to agree with Dan here, the Apollo X6 I had for about two years sounded weird to me as well. I've looked over the audioscience reviews, UA's spec's and various other scientific sources but I still have no idea why. Irrelevant of specs it was still enough of an issue to take a $600.00 loss on it. " or even a preamp." Interfaces are packed full of analogue circuitry, they tend to be clean but if you think a preamp of all things makes a notable difference then an entire audio interface definitely will. The UAD stuff either sounds slightly “different” or is unduly subject to internet groupthink and confirmation bias. I don’t really care all that much if I use my Quad Eights vs. the API 1608 at Panoramic, or the TSM at Sharkbite, or the TG2 at Wally’s Hydeout. But, transformer balanced discrete pres do a few things that I like. One is that they distort in cool ways. That actually matters. The TSM pres are IC based and don’t do that, for example. Additionally there is a degree of sonic cohesion that these preamps bring when used on every track that in my personal experience you will not get from a Soundcraft Ghost for example. We actually looped a DI part to a reamp and tested all our pres back when we had the Ghost. The Ghost pre was plastic sounding compared to Chandler, Langevin, Telefunken, Quad Eight etc. e.g. less subjectively musical. But what I don’t give a fig about is matching any one preamp to any one instrument. I will lean on vintage Neves when they’re in the room. They do seem a tad extra, compared to everything else, or maybe it’s internet groupthink and confirmation bias talking: I seldom recall or can tell for certain whether I had the vintage Neve or the Vintech on snare on a record I did, say, 8 years ago. And by the way, if I sound passionate about preamps, I’m really not that big on it. It is one of many many considerations in trying to make art. We used the UAD pre on a vocal the other day, it was totally fine and the unison Neve did seem to add something nice. Anyway, converters have been fine for two decades. The fact that some of the cheap ones are good now is cool. And if you meant that interfaces matter a lot because of their monitoring “center” sections, that’s totally true. While most DAs are more than decent these days I’d rather use my Dbox as a monitor controller than say, um, my old m-box pro. Anyway, having read your whole SSL saga, I’d say we agree about very little in how to go about this stuff and I’m totally good with that! Sincerely hope it works out for ya.
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Post by Guitar on May 5, 2022 9:01:29 GMT -6
Wow! nice post notneeson. thumbs up.
My personal, short version of the last few posts is something like, "I can hear a lot of these small things, conversion differences, even op amps in some cases, some capacitors, but in the big picture these details nearly don't matter at all."
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2022 9:01:48 GMT -6
"The UAD stuff either sounds slightly “different” or is unduly subject to internet groupthink and confirmation bias."As you can probably tell by now, I do tend to form my own opinions whether they're popular or not. So it's definitely not groupthink or confirmation bias on my part. I just buy stuff, decide whether or not I like it and that's all there really is to it.. "I don’t really care all that much if I use my Quad Eights vs. the API 1608 at Panoramic, or the TSM at Sharkbite, or the TG2 at Wally’s Hydeout. But, transformer balanced discrete pres do a few things that I like. One is that they distort in cool ways. That actually matters. The TSM pres are IC based and don’t do that, for example.Additionally there is a degree of sonic cohesion that these preamps bring when used on every track that in my personal experience you will not get from a Soundcraft Ghost for example."Yeah, I like a decent transformer preamp as well but if I had to use the pre's on my MOTU I wouldn't worry about it. Like converters they've gotten better over the years and cost less $$$'s.. And by the way, if I sound passionate about preamps, I’m really not that big on it. It is one of many many considerations in trying to make art. We used the UAD pre on a vocal the other day, it was totally fine and the unison Neve did seem to add something nice."
Fair enough. "Anyway, converters have been fine for two decades. The fact that some of the cheap ones are good now is cool. And if you meant that interfaces matter a lot because of their monitoring “center” sections, that’s totally true. While most DAs are more than decent these days I’d rather use my Dbox as a monitor controller than say, um, my old m-box pro.Anyway, having read your whole SSL saga, I’d say we agree about very little in how to go about this stuff and I’m totally good with that! Sincerely hope it works out for ya."
Most of them have been fine and it's the DA on the Apollo I have an issue with, when recording it didn't sound all that different to my MOTU if I played it back through another interface. About the SSL, I haven't got a clue what you mean.. I bought a cheap desk and it didn't work out. It's not the end of the world and I'm using Logic inserts without issue.. Going back in for a second dose was a bit silly though .
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Post by RealNoob on May 5, 2022 9:14:21 GMT -6
anyone demo the BLA Revolution 2x2 in relationship to all these models/brands being mentioned?
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Post by notneeson on May 5, 2022 9:44:17 GMT -6
"The UAD stuff either sounds slightly “different” or is unduly subject to internet groupthink and confirmation bias."As you can probably tell by now, I do tend to form my own opinions whether they're popular or not. So it's definitely not groupthink or confirmation bias on my part. I just buy stuff, decide whether or not I like it and that's all there really is to it.. "I don’t really care all that much if I use my Quad Eights vs. the API 1608 at Panoramic, or the TSM at Sharkbite, or the TG2 at Wally’s Hydeout. But, transformer balanced discrete pres do a few things that I like. One is that they distort in cool ways. That actually matters. The TSM pres are IC based and don’t do that, for example.Additionally there is a degree of sonic cohesion that these preamps bring when used on every track that in my personal experience you will not get from a Soundcraft Ghost for example."Yeah, I like a decent transformer preamp as well but if I had to use the pre's on my MOTU I wouldn't worry about it. Like converters they've gotten better over the years and cost less $$$'s.. And by the way, if I sound passionate about preamps, I’m really not that big on it. It is one of many many considerations in trying to make art. We used the UAD pre on a vocal the other day, it was totally fine and the unison Neve did seem to add something nice."
Fair enough. "Anyway, converters have been fine for two decades. The fact that some of the cheap ones are good now is cool. And if you meant that interfaces matter a lot because of their monitoring “center” sections, that’s totally true. While most DAs are more than decent these days I’d rather use my Dbox as a monitor controller than say, um, my old m-box pro.Anyway, having read your whole SSL saga, I’d say we agree about very little in how to go about this stuff and I’m totally good with that! Sincerely hope it works out for ya."
Most of them have been fine and it's the DA on the Apollo I have an issue with, when recording it didn't sound all that different to my MOTU if I played it back through another interface. About the SSL, I haven't got a clue what you mean.. I bought a cheap desk and it didn't work out. It's not the end of the world and I'm using Logic inserts without issue.. Going back in for a second dose was a bit silly though . I just meant we think about things quite differently and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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Post by craigmorris74 on May 5, 2022 11:16:01 GMT -6
Comparing line stages on the inputs of converters/interfaces to preamps is a stretch. While this line inputs have an impact on the sound, in my experience there's no way that compares to the impact of a preamp converting a signal from mic to line level.
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Post by Guitar on May 5, 2022 21:34:54 GMT -6
anyone demo the BLA Revolution 2x2 in relationship to all these models/brands being mentioned? I thought it was interesting, but sub-par. I settled on a MOTU Ultralite MK 5 for whatever it's worth, love it. EDIT: it has a really cool headphone amp. But every other part of it was too strange for me. I guess some people like "colored conversion with bad specs." Terrible windows drivers, nearly unusable.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 6, 2022 4:07:27 GMT -6
@craig what would the sonic difference between the xlr and line inputs be ?
No question, there was a difference using a good ob pre to the line inputs vs the mikes directly to the desktop xlr inputs.
Thx!
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Post by sirthought on May 6, 2022 4:37:04 GMT -6
I'm wondering if you'd save a good amount of money, and also enjoy the sound of the Cranborne Audio 500R8 plus some other 500 series preamp in place of your Daking.
Yes, it would cost more than the Apogee Desktop, but a much larger and flexible feature set, while still much lower than the Aurora N and Daking. It would work with existing outboard, but allow for future changes within the 500 series.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 6, 2022 4:53:20 GMT -6
Good idea, but I don’t have any 500 stuff, so not going to start now !
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