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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 5:46:41 GMT -6
Comparing line stages on the inputs of converters/interfaces to preamps is a stretch. While this line inputs have an impact on the sound, in my experience there's no way that compares to the impact of a preamp converting a signal from mic to line level. It really just depends on the end goal, interface pre's for example often spec out similarly to the lines. A tube pre wouldn't although that's not really the point of them..
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Post by notneeson on May 6, 2022 13:24:10 GMT -6
@craig what would the sonic difference between the xlr and line inputs be ? No question, there was a difference using a good ob pre to the line inputs vs the mikes directly to the desktop xlr inputs. Thx! Not Craig, but it depends on the box. Many interfaces simply pad down the mic pres for line input. Your Lynx likely uses dedicated line input stages, e.g. no padding. (Unless maybe you have the preamp version, but then I'm unsure how they do it). In theory dedicated line stages sound better. Probably in practice too, but where that difference lies along the curve of diminishing returns depends. Not sure what Apogee does on the Desktop, very likely pads. TRS and XLR should not, in of themselves, sound different. When in doubt, XLR is always my pref. though. Much more robust connection. Then again, the signal on your favorite record almost certainly went through a ton of tt patch pints and it sounds great, right?
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Post by kcatthedog on May 6, 2022 14:04:05 GMT -6
All good I was asking in the context of the Desktop, to use the Daking, then I need to use the desktop ‘s line ins not xlr’s.
I thought the Daking into the desktop sounded very good, was just curious about the original comment.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 14:17:40 GMT -6
@craig what would the sonic difference between the xlr and line inputs be ? No question, there was a difference using a good ob pre to the line inputs vs the mikes directly to the desktop xlr inputs. Thx! Not Craig, but it depends on the box. Many interfaces simply pad down the mic pres for line input. Your Lynx likely uses dedicated line input stages, e.g. no padding. (Unless maybe you have the preamp version, but then I'm unsure how they do it). In theory dedicated line stages sound better. Probably in practice too, but where that difference lies along the curve of diminishing returns depends. Not sure what Apogee does on the Desktop, very likely pads. TRS and XLR should not, in of themselves, sound different. When in doubt, XLR is always my pref. though. Much more robust connection. Then again, the signal on your favorite record almost certainly went through a ton of tt patch pints and it sounds great, right? The apogee pres are just THAT 5171 controlling OPA1612 now. Not really that much different than the line stage. The apogee has a bypass in the mixer but I don’t know if it’s a pad or not. The rme stuff is sometimes jsut an input buffer and sometimes a pga2500 chip pre Lynx pres are THAT 1580 controlled by THAT 5171
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 14:25:02 GMT -6
All good I was asking in the context of the Desktop, to use the Daking, then I need to use the desktop ‘s line ins not xlr’s. I thought the Daking into the desktop sounded very good, was just curious about the original comment. You set the the two ins in the onboard mixer to be line ins or pres. I don’t know if this bypasses the pre amp circuitry fully. It’s not like say a lot of Focusrites where the XLR is the pre and the TRS in the middle of the XLR has a pad or less gain in the chip pre
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 14:41:46 GMT -6
All good I was asking in the context of the Desktop, to use the Daking, then I need to use the desktop ‘s line ins not xlr’s. I thought the Daking into the desktop sounded very good, was just curious about the original comment. Okay on the main screen of it, you tap input 1 or 2 a few times and this gets you to the analog level display where you set the level of your input which adjusts the gain range. You have mic, instrument, +4 dbu, and -10 dbv levels. It will switch and you can hear it switch. The pre is good to about 65 db and last 10 db are noisier ime and this is often ground contamination from the mobo of the computer over usb. Don’t plug it in and crank gain no noise Apogee is digitally controlled analog with different gain stages: apogeedigital.com/blog/the-secret-being-mic-pre-technology
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Post by kcatthedog on May 6, 2022 15:54:21 GMT -6
Thx, I know how to do it: have already done it.
Was just curious about Craig’s comment above about the sonic differences between xlr and line input.
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Post by notneeson on May 6, 2022 15:57:09 GMT -6
All good I was asking in the context of the Desktop, to use the Daking, then I need to use the desktop ‘s line ins not xlr’s. I thought the Daking into the desktop sounded very good, was just curious about the original comment. Yeah, that's kind of an irksome prosumer thing: XLR isn't just for mic level! I think it's a concession to cost and surface area on a lot of these devices.
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Post by Guitar on May 6, 2022 16:05:12 GMT -6
Short answer: it doesn't really matter. Long answer: yada yada yada yada yee yee yee.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 16:20:30 GMT -6
All good I was asking in the context of the Desktop, to use the Daking, then I need to use the desktop ‘s line ins not xlr’s. I thought the Daking into the desktop sounded very good, was just curious about the original comment. Yeah, that's kind of an irksome prosumer thing: XLR isn't just for mic level! I think it's a concession to cost and surface area on a lot of these devices. Yeah major issue and the line is majorly blurred between Pro and Prosumer now. It's weird. Like now, the only people who can maintain Portastudios are pros ime! The only people who can afford a lot of modern "pro" hardware are prosumers! 3 to 5 thousand dollar rack mount pieces. That's 3-5 records! That might be 3 weeks of work! For something that's probably not that novel of an item and is based off something from 40-50 years ago!
Apogee especially because they don't use a lot of junk inside like a Focusrite or Presonus product but are trying to compete as a higher priced alternative to them. Or just the Symphony Desktop trying to plug a weird hole in their lineup where their only high end 2 channel interface as a 3500 dollar Symphony II with an SE module that gives you 2 ins and 6 outs! Unlike Focusrite which is prosumer grade sound scaled up now, almost masquerading as a pro product with a lot of junk inside but they were still among the first to use Dante.
Then you see inside an RME UFX and there are both Wurth and Lelon caps. Measure it and there's minimum phase anti-aliasing filters on the DAs. Yes. Awful. At least on the AKM based ones. Yet their products are much more regularly updated than Apogees despite sounding and being less pro inside. So the good sounding Apogee 16s are e-waste while the awful original Firefaces are still working.
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Post by craigmorris74 on May 6, 2022 17:09:27 GMT -6
Thx, I know how to do it: have already done it. Was just curious about Craig’s comment above about the sonic differences between xlr and line input. I wasn’t commenting on XLR vs line input on an interface. What I was implying the going from mic to line level has the potential to impact the sound more than a line level signal to the typical line input of a converter box. Something like a Burl would be an exception to my statement.
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Post by wiz on May 6, 2022 17:23:43 GMT -6
Yeah, that's kind of an irksome prosumer thing: XLR isn't just for mic level! I think it's a concession to cost and surface area on a lot of these devices. Yeah major issue and the line is majorly blurred between Pro and Prosumer now. It's weird. Like now, the only people who can maintain Portastudios are pros ime! The only people who can afford a lot of modern "pro" hardware are prosumers! 3 to 5 thousand dollar rack mount pieces. That's 3-5 records! That might be 3 weeks of work! For something that's probably not that novel of an item and is based off something from 40-50 years ago!
Apogee especially because they don't use a lot of junk inside like a Focusrite or Presonus product but are trying to compete as a higher priced alternative to them. Or just the Symphony Desktop trying to plug a weird hole in their lineup where their only high end 2 channel interface as a 3500 dollar Symphony II with an SE module that gives you 2 ins and 6 outs! Unlike Focusrite which is prosumer grade sound scaled up now, almost masquerading as a pro product with a lot of junk inside but they were still among the first to use Dante.
Then you see inside an RME UFX and there are both Wurth and Lelon caps. Measure it and there's minimum phase anti-aliasing filters on the DAs. Yes. Awful. At least on the AKM based ones. Yet their products are much more regularly updated than Apogees despite sounding and being less pro inside. So the good sounding Apogee 16s are e-waste while the awful original Firefaces are still working.
Something mentioned there is super important... support. Its probably for me, the biggest thing, there are plenty of great sounding digital convertors at all price points...well, nearly all price points... but support , stability and the design interface are the most important...to me..you , after sound... 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 6, 2022 18:29:38 GMT -6
Yeah major issue and the line is majorly blurred between Pro and Prosumer now. It's weird. Like now, the only people who can maintain Portastudios are pros ime! The only people who can afford a lot of modern "pro" hardware are prosumers! 3 to 5 thousand dollar rack mount pieces. That's 3-5 records! That might be 3 weeks of work! For something that's probably not that novel of an item and is based off something from 40-50 years ago!
Apogee especially because they don't use a lot of junk inside like a Focusrite or Presonus product but are trying to compete as a higher priced alternative to them. Or just the Symphony Desktop trying to plug a weird hole in their lineup where their only high end 2 channel interface as a 3500 dollar Symphony II with an SE module that gives you 2 ins and 6 outs! Unlike Focusrite which is prosumer grade sound scaled up now, almost masquerading as a pro product with a lot of junk inside but they were still among the first to use Dante.
Then you see inside an RME UFX and there are both Wurth and Lelon caps. Measure it and there's minimum phase anti-aliasing filters on the DAs. Yes. Awful. At least on the AKM based ones. Yet their products are much more regularly updated than Apogees despite sounding and being less pro inside. So the good sounding Apogee 16s are e-waste while the awful original Firefaces are still working.
Something mentioned there is super important... support. Its probably for me, the biggest thing, there are plenty of great sounding digital convertors at all price points...well, nearly all price points... but support , stability and the design interface are the most important...to me..you , after sound... 8) cheers Wiz What are you on these days wiz? Still Apollo?
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Post by wiz on May 6, 2022 19:35:13 GMT -6
Something mentioned there is super important... support. Its probably for me, the biggest thing, there are plenty of great sounding digital convertors at all price points...well, nearly all price points... but support , stability and the design interface are the most important...to me..you , after sound... 8) cheers Wiz What are you on these days wiz? Still Apollo? Hey bro Yes Apollo…. Just finish up there next album which will be number 9 Cheers Wiz
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 6, 2022 20:05:26 GMT -6
What are you on these days wiz? Still Apollo? Hey bro Yes Apollo…. Just finish up there next album which will be number 9 Cheers Wiz You make the Apollo sound great brother. Hope you and yours are well!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2022 23:11:30 GMT -6
Short answer: it doesn't really matter. Long answer: yada yada yada yada yee yee yee. No it doesn't matter, end of the day we come here to chat with other people who love equipment and music. We might find a new shiny someone noticed or pick up a few tips but interaction is key here. Nobody can specifically state what will enhance your workflow, there's probably tens of thousands of Apollo users out there (or more) and there's certainly quite a few high profile mixers using them too. Do they give a shit if I like the Apollo or not? No and vice versa.. I love the passion but sometimes it feels like we're arguing over flavours of cheesecake, you like what you like and trying to change someone's food preference is utterly pointless. For me it all comes back to what notneeson said, we think about things differently but IMO that's where the magic happens. If everyone agreed on everything, music amongst other things would be as dull as dishwater, variety is the spice of life an all that.
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Post by Guitar on May 7, 2022 9:13:48 GMT -6
Short answer: it doesn't really matter. Long answer: yada yada yada yada yee yee yee. No it doesn't matter, end of the day we come here to chat with other people who love equipment and music. We might find a new shiny someone noticed or pick up a few tips but interaction is key here. Nobody can specifically state what will enhance your workflow, there's probably tens of thousands of Apollo users out there (or more) and there's certainly quite a few high profile mixers using them too. Do they give a shit if I like the Apollo or not? No and vice versa.. I love the passion but sometimes it feels like we're arguing over flavours of cheesecake, you like what you like and trying to change someone's food preference is utterly pointless. For me it all comes back to what notneeson said, we think about things differently but IMO that's where the magic happens. If everyone agreed on everything, music amongst other things would be as dull as dishwater, variety is the spice of life an all that. Yeah 100%! The "problem" for me is increasingly things don't matter in a sort of obsessive, nit picky way. And when you realize this, it's hard to even talk about 75% of the things people want to talk about, because none of it really matters. But I love talking to you people. My "creativity" and "technique" these days is mostly offline, in live music, in writing/playing/building etc. Not as much spilling my guts into the computer as years past. But I still check the forums every day!
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2022 11:28:43 GMT -6
Yeah 100%! The "problem" for me is increasingly things don't matter in a sort of obsessive, nit picky way. And when you realize this, it's hard to even talk about 75% of the things people want to talk about, because none of it really matters. But I love talking to you people. My "creativity" and "technique" these days is mostly offline, in live music, in writing/playing/building etc. Not as much spilling my guts into the computer as years past. But I still check the forums every day! I understand and empathise because reality doesn't often meet virtual life. Take the SSL thread mentioned for example, once work gave me a chance to breathe I had the issue rectified in less than a day. Was there a need to mention it? No, not really. When it comes to equipment I have good relationships with a few suppliers who will send me anything to test, do I need to ask? No, not really. (There is a point here so bear with me).. I've been using Shelfords for tracking, an MOTU 1248 plus UA plugs since 2013 and I've never felt that they were a roadblock. I bought a metric ton of high end HW (SSL aside of course) simply because I've been drooling over it for nearly a decade and now I can finally afford it (I don't do debt so it takes a while).. Does it sound better? To me it does but do I need it? No, not at all. But I find the discussions we have on here interesting, I like communicating with fellow engineers (both pro or amateur) and it's rare to find people as passionate as I am about this stuff. Even quite a few working engineers (who are friends as well) don't really seem to care.. I've been more than happy with my last two setups so if I didn't engage at a certain level I'd have nothing more to say than "I'm doing good here, peace out"..
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Post by RealNoob on May 7, 2022 17:42:05 GMT -6
Those using the apogee Desktop, are you all windows users? If not and some on Mac, how are you recording considering the Apple latency? It is a big deal for me, I am surprised I am not hearing more about this considering there are fewer thunderbolt interfaces and a whole slew of USB devices.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 7, 2022 18:03:11 GMT -6
I think the info about the latency misleading; am not experiencing any problems on my m1. If I hadn’t read the thread here, would never have crossed my mind.
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Post by the other mark williams on May 7, 2022 18:24:27 GMT -6
Those using the apogee Desktop, are you all windows users? If not and some on Mac, how are you recording considering the Apple latency? It is a big deal for me, I am surprised I am not hearing more about this considering there are fewer thunderbolt interfaces and a whole slew of USB devices. I’m not using the product in question, but from my understanding, it uses a DSP software layer just like most interfaces to achieve near-zero latency. But Apogee has figured out a way to integrate their monitoring into Logic and Pro Tools such that you don’t have to switch back and forth between your DAW mixer and some custom Apogee mixer. If I do in fact have that right, it sounds pretty rad.
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Post by RealNoob on May 7, 2022 18:27:30 GMT -6
I think the info about the latency misleading; am not experiencing any problems on my m1. If I hadn’t read the thread here, would never have crossed my mind. I have an M1 Max on order. Apple keeps delaying but your report is encouraging. On my 2018 (specs max out) MBP, it is tough. the lag/delay is real.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 7, 2022 18:35:59 GMT -6
What macOS are you running on the mbp?
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Post by RealNoob on May 7, 2022 19:01:30 GMT -6
Monterey
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Post by Guitar on May 7, 2022 20:49:14 GMT -6
Yeah 100%! The "problem" for me is increasingly things don't matter in a sort of obsessive, nit picky way. And when you realize this, it's hard to even talk about 75% of the things people want to talk about, because none of it really matters. But I love talking to you people. My "creativity" and "technique" these days is mostly offline, in live music, in writing/playing/building etc. Not as much spilling my guts into the computer as years past. But I still check the forums every day! I understand and empathise because reality doesn't often meet virtual life. Take the SSL thread mentioned for example, once work gave me a chance to breathe I had the issue rectified in less than a day. Was there a need to mention it? No, not really. When it comes to equipment I have good relationships with a few suppliers who will send me anything to test, do I need to ask? No, not really. (There is a point here so bear with me).. I've been using Shelfords for tracking, an MOTU 1248 plus UA plugs since 2013 and I've never felt that they were a roadblock. I bought a metric ton of high end HW (SSL aside of course) simply because I've been drooling over it for nearly a decade and now I can finally afford it (I don't do debt so it takes a while).. Does it sound better? To me it does but do I need it? No, not at all. But I find the discussions we have on here interesting, I like communicating with fellow engineers (both pro or amateur) and it's rare to find people as passionate as I am about this stuff. Even quite a few working engineers (who are friends as well) don't really seem to care.. I've been more than happy with my last two setups so if I didn't engage at a certain level I'd have nothing more to say than "I'm doing good here, peace out".. I guess I'm on that path to become sort of a pseudo-lurker. I know a lot of people have been like that for a long time. I've just always been the guy posting way too much and that's changing. I still love gear and science, but I don't care as much as I used to. I'm chasing experience, time out of the house, and so on. This sounds like a goodbye note but it's not, just a message in a bottle. Just joined a new band as a drummer, had my 3rd or 4th practice with them today, first one with (almost) the whole group. It's rough but my intention is to hone in on what's good and improve as quick as I can. The most important part to me is how good the people are. No narcissists, assholes, damaging behavior or anything of the sort. I have to pinch myself a little bit, it's wild. A drummer? OK, don't ask too many questions, just do it.
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