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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 13:25:35 GMT -6
And Eric Valentine uses a Lavry Gold, which he conveniently leaves out in most of his videos. Probably due to his viewership, which would get discouraged if he talked about too much high end gear.Uh... Eric is almost constantly talking about his multiple UnFairchilds, which run about $11,000 each. He's literally made entire videos dedicated to just that specific piece. And he's never been shy about discussing various other high end gear that's just as lavish/exotic as the Lavry Gold (i.e. vintage 251s, C12s, Altec compressors, etc.). I'm a huge Eric Valentine fan (he's pretty much my favorite producer), but my experience with clocking has been different. I've worked with another producer whose work I have equal respect for, and the 10MX plays a big role in his setup. It's a truly gorgeous sound, IMO, but different things work for different people. FWIW, Eric has also challenged the importance of converters, which again, my experience runs contrary. Still, you can't argue with Eric's track record. His work speaks for itself. And dude, no need to turn this into a mudslinging flame war type of ordeal. RGO rules and is generally a super respectful/friendly place. Let's keep it that way. Isn’t he the owner of unfairchild? So he’s saying converters and clocks are not important while he owns multiple lavry golds, antelopes and other top shelf converters? This brings me to another point: it seems to me as if there’s more money to be made by selling people pro-sumer mediocre gear and plugins everyone can afford as opposed to expensive pieces which in my experience do tend to sound better/more like records people like. Can you make a hit on crappy gear? No doubt! But that’s purely theoretical and all hit songs i can name usually follow the same production process (which involves expensive gear and yes, good clocks) I’ve grown quite cynical of this youtube shill game full of paid “reviews”. This is in my mind is more disrespectful and dishonest to the viewer. Basically saying it’s just lack of mixing skill or whatever when maybe it’s not. I still fail to see how I am disrespectful tbh. I just do not understand people commenting on something they never tried for themselves, that is all. If that offends people i am sorry but it might be good to be accountable for what sort of information you put out there. Sorry for the rant, but it shouldnt be as hard as it is for up and coming producers to find good information based on experience, but sadly most of it is watered down to shilling and covert advertisements.
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 4, 2022 14:16:55 GMT -6
When I got my HEDD 192 many years ago (which has a fantastic clock - well it is a Dave Hill design ) I immediately noticed everything sounded better! Even my RME Multiface sounded better clocked off the HEDD - I was always a sceptic up to that point. So after getting the HEDD 192 I become someone who can hear a quality clock does make a discernible and valuable difference. Though of course "valuable difference" is a relative term. Well, according to forums and “experts” you're wrong and are spreading misinformation ha! *insert dan lavry article here* I've come to trust my ears over the decades of experience I've built up - I believe only what I can hear as opposed to what I can read I'm certain Dave Hill mastered and perfected clock technology for a multitude of valid reasons - he's not a designer that goes in for or needs to bother with "marketing" features. Everything Dave Hill does is by design and for important reasons of audio quality. But each to their own, and if someone cannot hear the difference a great clock makes to digital audio then they probably just saved themselves some money, nothing wrong with that.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 4, 2022 14:29:40 GMT -6
Soooo... I'm guessing we never found out or were able to agree on which was "better" eh..? Right. Ok then. Duly noted.
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Post by tkaitkai on Mar 4, 2022 15:31:40 GMT -6
Uh... Eric is almost constantly talking about his multiple UnFairchilds, which run about $11,000 each. He's literally made entire videos dedicated to just that specific piece. And he's never been shy about discussing various other high end gear that's just as lavish/exotic as the Lavry Gold (i.e. vintage 251s, C12s, Altec compressors, etc.). I'm a huge Eric Valentine fan (he's pretty much my favorite producer), but my experience with clocking has been different. I've worked with another producer whose work I have equal respect for, and the 10MX plays a big role in his setup. It's a truly gorgeous sound, IMO, but different things work for different people. FWIW, Eric has also challenged the importance of converters, which again, my experience runs contrary. Still, you can't argue with Eric's track record. His work speaks for itself. And dude, no need to turn this into a mudslinging flame war type of ordeal. RGO rules and is generally a super respectful/friendly place. Let's keep it that way. Isn’t he the owner of unfairchild? So he’s saying converters and clocks are not important while he owns multiple lavry golds, antelopes and other top shelf converters? This brings me to another point: it seems to me as if there’s more money to be made by selling people pro-sumer mediocre gear and plugins everyone can afford as opposed to expensive pieces which in my experience do tend to sound better/more like records people like. Can you make a hit on crappy gear? No doubt! But that’s purely theoretical and all hit songs i can name usually follow the same production process (which involves expensive gear and yes, good clocks) I’ve grown quite cynical of this youtube shill game full of paid “reviews”. This is in my mind is more disrespectful and dishonest to the viewer. Basically saying it’s just lack of mixing skill or whatever when maybe it’s not. I still fail to see how I am disrespectful tbh. I just do not understand people commenting on something they never tried for themselves, that is all. If that offends people i am sorry but it might be good to be accountable for what sort of information you put out there. Sorry for the rant, but it shouldnt be as hard as it is for up and coming producers to find good information based on experience, but sadly most of it is watered down to shilling and covert advertisements. It sounds like you haven’t really watched Eric’s videos or studied his work. Lumping him in with YouTube tutorial gurus doing paid product reviews is disingenuous and a complete misrepresentation of his channel. I’ll leave this here — it doesn’t seem like there’s much room for civil discussion.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 4, 2022 19:26:04 GMT -6
Wake me up when RGO gets back to normal. 8-P
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 4, 2022 21:14:39 GMT -6
Wow, this all went shitshow purple fast. I clocked the RME MADI off of the Burl when the RME was in place and I liked that better. I think it's all just about feel and what you're hearing. There's a billion combos of clock to this, clock to that. No need to get upset about all of it. I went through the same thing Johnkenn did with his B2 and Convert-2 and I can't remember where I settled. Nuances. Tastes. You just eventually decide what moves you more. That's why we do this shit in the first place, really. I digress and go for another Stella.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 5, 2022 6:44:45 GMT -6
At some point, this all becomes splitting sonic hairs, pick and use what you prefer, might as well argue about best desserts: there is no one right answer. I have had a variety of name brand boxes here. They all sounded different , all good and switching up clocking, was also different. Once I got my Aurora N, any concerns about conversions, clocking and AD-DA evaporated. I do think if I doubled the cost of the Aurora N, there would be improvement , but for me likely marginal benefits vs cost. Just a singer/songwriter/engineer/producer livin the dream,on a budget: YMMV, god speed !
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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 5, 2022 8:34:01 GMT -6
Isn’t he the owner of unfairchild? So he’s saying converters and clocks are not important while he owns multiple lavry golds, antelopes and other top shelf converters? This brings me to another point: it seems to me as if there’s more money to be made by selling people pro-sumer mediocre gear and plugins everyone can afford as opposed to expensive pieces which in my experience do tend to sound better/more like records people like. Can you make a hit on crappy gear? No doubt! But that’s purely theoretical and all hit songs i can name usually follow the same production process (which involves expensive gear and yes, good clocks) I’ve grown quite cynical of this youtube shill game full of paid “reviews”. This is in my mind is more disrespectful and dishonest to the viewer. Basically saying it’s just lack of mixing skill or whatever when maybe it’s not. I still fail to see how I am disrespectful tbh. I just do not understand people commenting on something they never tried for themselves, that is all. If that offends people i am sorry but it might be good to be accountable for what sort of information you put out there. Sorry for the rant, but it shouldnt be as hard as it is for up and coming producers to find good information based on experience, but sadly most of it is watered down to shilling and covert advertisements. It sounds like you haven’t really watched Eric’s videos or studied his work. Lumping him in with YouTube tutorial gurus doing paid product reviews is disingenuous and a complete misrepresentation of his channel. I’ll leave this here — it doesn’t seem like there’s much room for civil discussion. How is this not a civil discussion? Because we disagree on certain things? But you're right: I have not watched many Eric Valentine videos, and his track record does speak for himself. It's the whole sphere of tutorials and reviews I find disingenous. However my point still stands: he says converters and clocks don't matter while he uses 15k EUR worth of converters - something doesn't add.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2022 8:59:02 GMT -6
How is this not a civil discussion? Because we disagree on certain things? But you're right: I have not watched many Eric Valentine videos, and his track record does speak for himself. It's the whole sphere of tutorials and reviews I find disingenous. However my point still stands: he says converters and clocks don't matter while he uses 15k EUR worth of converters - something doesn't add. Well I know nothing about him but I've heard the point before. Generally converters are good enough today especially in the mid range and upwards not to be a barrier. The same couldn't be said even two decades ago, in terms of music it's just a blip in time but when we talk about tech 20 years is an entire age of progression. I've heard amazing productions done on a Mackie 1640i, some emmy winner did work on a no so great by modern standards digital mixer. So ultimately at this juncture it's a tough sell to blame the tools and I'd look more towards I/O, features, support and drivers as the main selling point.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2022 9:43:54 GMT -6
When I got my HEDD 192 many years ago (which has a fantastic clock - well it is a Dave Hill design ) I immediately noticed everything sounded better! Even my RME Multiface sounded better clocked off the HEDD - I was always a sceptic up to that point. So after getting the HEDD 192 I become someone who can hear a quality clock does make a discernible and valuable difference. Though of course "valuable difference" is a relative term. Well, according to forums and “experts” youre wrong and are spreading misinformation ha! *insert dan lavry article here* Can you just stop? You’re completely baiting people and being obtuse if you’re saying you’re not. You’ve expressed your opinion - which I happen to agree with - but you’re being obnoxious.
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Post by nomatic on Mar 6, 2022 19:35:22 GMT -6
To get Back on topic I would say that my JCF AD-8s make a big difference at mix as there is no digital signature at all. Very Organic and analogue top and creamy mids with deep bass. My second fav is the Prism stuff as it has a sort of lovely thing natural thing. I think that conversion makes a big difference personally. When I clock my ULN-8 off of the JCF it get more organic sounding BTW.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 20:47:27 GMT -6
Uh... Eric is almost constantly talking about his multiple UnFairchilds, which run about $11,000 each. He's literally made entire videos dedicated to just that specific piece. And he's never been shy about discussing various other high end gear that's just as lavish/exotic as the Lavry Gold (i.e. vintage 251s, C12s, Altec compressors, etc.). I'm a huge Eric Valentine fan (he's pretty much my favorite producer), but my experience with clocking has been different. I've worked with another producer whose work I have equal respect for, and the 10MX plays a big role in his setup. It's a truly gorgeous sound, IMO, but different things work for different people. FWIW, Eric has also challenged the importance of converters, which again, my experience runs contrary. Still, you can't argue with Eric's track record. His work speaks for itself. And dude, no need to turn this into a mudslinging flame war type of ordeal. RGO rules and is generally a super respectful/friendly place. Let's keep it that way. Isn’t he the owner of unfairchild? So he’s saying converters and clocks are not important while he owns multiple lavry golds, antelopes and other top shelf converters? This brings me to another point: it seems to me as if there’s more money to be made by selling people pro-sumer mediocre gear and plugins everyone can afford as opposed to expensive pieces which in my experience do tend to sound better/more like records people like. Can you make a hit on crappy gear? No doubt! But that’s purely theoretical and all hit songs i can name usually follow the same production process (which involves expensive gear and yes, good clocks) I’ve grown quite cynical of this youtube shill game full of paid “reviews”. This is in my mind is more disrespectful and dishonest to the viewer. Basically saying it’s just lack of mixing skill or whatever when maybe it’s not. I still fail to see how I am disrespectful tbh. I just do not understand people commenting on something they never tried for themselves, that is all. If that offends people i am sorry but it might be good to be accountable for what sort of information you put out there. Sorry for the rant, but it shouldnt be as hard as it is for up and coming producers to find good information based on experience, but sadly most of it is watered down to shilling and covert advertisements. well What Eric Valentine is doing with distressors and Fairchild type compressors is more distorted than any decent converter tbh. Anything over entry level is going to capture that
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2022 12:28:32 GMT -6
So just to bring this back around to the original discussion...I've just been clocking with the Convert 2 since I started the thread. Just switched back to clocking with the Burl - and there is definitely more separation between instruments and I think the bottom tightens a little. Think I'm going to keep it this way.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2022 12:29:47 GMT -6
Really makes me want to try the Burl DAC
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Post by svart on Mar 8, 2022 12:41:31 GMT -6
Think I'm going to keep it this way. Until tomorrow? *giggle*
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2022 13:24:58 GMT -6
Nah - gonna work with this for a while. Whatever I'm hearing - whether it be jitter or phase or whatever - I can definitely hear reverb trails better, bigger width, etc.
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Post by roundbadge on Mar 8, 2022 13:43:48 GMT -6
Really makes me want to try the Burl DAC I recently upgraded my Mothership DA's to the newer Next Gen series. sounding great.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 8, 2022 15:56:50 GMT -6
If someone is really worried about jitter, take a look at your word clock signal on a scope, but ( SVART correct me if I’m wrong here) your really not seeing what’s going on because the actual converter chips are going to regenerate their own clocking. Will a “ better” clock make an improvement? Maybe, probably will sound different but better is subjective here. Most mass market converters are not going to need or benefit from an external clock, unless your converters number in DR Bill land, are running Old Digi 888’s ( even the clock in a MOTU MTP was an improvement or you are syncing to the outboard world ( most of our clocks were really designed to provide house sync in the video world.
A BLA MKII is one of the simplest way to improve an old 888 based PT system, but it will do nothing for my RADAR or Mytek. 90% of Clocking issues are cabling and termination issues ( think shortest runs of RG6 and terminators. If any box has self termination check to see if it really is 75 ohms.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 8, 2022 23:41:48 GMT -6
Really makes me want to try the Burl DAC I recently upgraded my Mothership DA's to the newer Next Gen series. sounding great. BDA4M or B2 DAC?
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Post by roundbadge on Mar 9, 2022 0:23:29 GMT -6
I recently upgraded my Mothership DA's to the newer Next Gen series. sounding great. BDA4M or B2 DAC? I use a mothership so the current BDA8 cards going to the console and BDA4M for mix monitor I love the current generation Burl DA sound. don't know if the latest B2 DA rack unit has the updated circuits.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 9, 2022 0:26:24 GMT -6
I use a mothership so the current BDA8 cards going to the console and BDA4M for mix monitor I love the current generation Burl DA sound. don't know if the latest B2 DA rack unit has the updated circuits. Same. Went to the latest on both of the 4M cards in the last couple of years, just wondered on what you did.
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Post by popmann on Mar 9, 2022 11:23:09 GMT -6
While I try not to take this personally, I've GOT to say that someone implying the Eric is misleading people because he BOTH says ADA doesn't make "that much difference" AND uses professional ADA, is an insulting lack of perspective to someone sharing engineering knowledge for free. -He has used Avid systems for 20+ years. Lynx made a name for themselves being the ONLY "pedestrian" converters available...other than arguably Avid's own. IME, Avid's own is better than your random RME/MOTU/Lynx level...but the point is--none of that can BE USED AT ALL with aa Avid system. Certainly, you can't expect him to switch platforms so that he can use less expensive Thunderbolt converters, right? And he's traditional used more than 32 io, which limits his ability to use say 90% of home studio level conversion. -"not much difference" isn't...NO DIFFERENCE. When you're working at a certain level, you try to remove every little tiny bottleneck. I don't think he's claimed anywhere that, say, a SoundBlaster sounds the same as a Larvy, like...um, he who shall not be named. Anyhoo. I resemble that...in that I also don't think it's that big of a deal (but ask me about sample rate*)...AND I overdub through a Burl and monitor via Benchmark--but, again, both bought for FUNCTIONAL need, and again--there isn't much in the way of less professional ADA made. At all. I wanted to have nonproprietary stereo ADA for the home set up that I could change recording systems as tech and role decided without changing the sound, I was comfortable with. MOTU doesn't MAKE a converter--they make interfaces with converters...so, I didn't really have a choice of going pedestrian--it was "which" professional grade ADA will I buy. *which I maintain improves a lot of different serial functions in an ITB production--not JUST the conversion linearity.
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Post by stevenlmorgan on Mar 9, 2022 14:52:26 GMT -6
Eric has an excellent video comparing converters on a specific mix, giving details of what he is hearing, and selecting Burl for the song.
He is very open in his videos, willing to share, and has made made MANY changes over the past few years, sold his studio, built a new studio, sold his consoles…
I like his integrity.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 9, 2022 19:31:12 GMT -6
While I try not to take this personally, I've GOT to say that someone implying the Eric is misleading people because he BOTH says ADA doesn't make "that much difference" AND uses professional ADA, is an insulting lack of perspective to someone sharing engineering knowledge for free. -He has used Avid systems for 20+ years. Lynx made a name for themselves being the ONLY "pedestrian" converters available...other than arguably Avid's own. IME, Avid's own is better than your random RME/MOTU/Lynx level...but the point is--none of that can BE USED AT ALL with aa Avid system. Certainly, you can't expect him to switch platforms so that he can use less expensive Thunderbolt converters, right? And he's traditional used more than 32 io, which limits his ability to use say 90% of home studio level conversion. -"not much difference" isn't...NO DIFFERENCE. When you're working at a certain level, you try to remove every little tiny bottleneck. I don't think he's claimed anywhere that, say, a SoundBlaster sounds the same as a Larvy, like...um, he who shall not be named. Anyhoo. I resemble that...in that I also don't think it's that big of a deal (but ask me about sample rate*)...AND I overdub through a Burl and monitor via Benchmark--but, again, both bought for FUNCTIONAL need, and again--there isn't much in the way of less professional ADA made. At all. I wanted to have nonproprietary stereo ADA for the home set up that I could change recording systems as tech and role decided without changing the sound, I was comfortable with. MOTU doesn't MAKE a converter--they make interfaces with converters...so, I didn't really have a choice of going pedestrian--it was "which" professional grade ADA will I buy. *which I maintain improves a lot of different serial functions in an ITB production--not JUST the conversion linearity. I think your reading a bit to much into the fact that the far more famous Eric uses Burl, just because someone at that level endorses or own something at that level doesn’t mean that’s all they use and know. Especially during the pandemic guys like Valentine were getting tracks from clients recorded on just about anything ( I even had to do a couple of transfers from 1/2 8 track for a fairly well credited AE producer who shall remain nameless because I have the 440-8). So you don’t know what he has really used or deal with tracks recorded on. Endorsements can make this difficult, some manufacturers won’t even let you mention any competitors product. I always laugh at all endorsement statements from my bike racing days, I remember all the Custom Serrotas painted up as Murray and Huffys for the US Olympic Teams, almost bought one in fact. Hell Greg Lemond didn’t even ride his namesake. So I’m sure he knows what the average AD sounds like. I have mentioned before I have been in many sessions where what might be mentioned in a forum, blog or article as the gear used had nothing to do with what was used and everything to do with politics ( man I would love to name names but I’m not pissing off any friends or manufacturers). So what I’m saying is lean in and take it all with a grain of salt. If I could afford something like the Burl and could count it as a buisness expense I probably would.
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Post by wiz on Mar 9, 2022 19:38:21 GMT -6
I would love to try some of these "higher end AD/DA's" but I know its not going to bring me in one more red cent (and all the cents are red now... my days of running in the black from my original music are well and truly over) and I just can't justify the expense.
cheers
Wiz
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