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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 7:12:33 GMT -6
Weird how its so hard for some people to hear, let alone acknowledge clocks can improve converters. I’ve heard from many trusted ears that what it basically does is time align/phase align waveforms on a microscopic level and this concurs with what I have personally found to be true. There is this vintage king video where they compare an antelope orion with and without a 10mx. Is it a huge difference? No, but it’s definitely felt imo. The clocked version sounds less abrasive and less harsh while being arguably brighter. The bass is also more in phase which results in more punch and there is a greater sense of depth. Some people just seem to be hyper sensitive to phase while others (lucky them) don’t hear it or don’t want to hear it because they have a preconceived notion of the “science”. Lets be honest: spending 7k on a clock is retarded but a good clock will improve your converter if it’s possible to turn off synchrolock or whatever the manufacturer calls it.
I have always wondered how many top productions sound incredibly loud and bright but still smooth and non abrasive- I do think most of the productions are captured by a high quality clock somewhere along the line. Many mastering houses still use the antelope 10 so take that as you will.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2022 9:27:40 GMT -6
Weird how its so hard for some people to hear, let alone acknowledge clocks can improve converters. I’ve heard from many trusted ears that what it basically does is time align/phase align waveforms on a microscopic level and this concurs with what I have personally found to be true. There is this vintage king video where they compare an antelope orion with and without a 10mx. Is it a huge difference? No, but it’s definitely felt imo. The clocked version sounds less abrasive and less harsh while being arguably brighter. The bass is also more in phase which results in more punch and there is a greater sense of depth. Some people just seem to be hyper sensitive to phase while others (lucky them) don’t hear it or don’t want to hear it because they have a preconceived notion of the “science”. Lets be honest: spending 7k on a clock is retarded but a good clock will improve your converter if it’s possible to turn off synchrolock or whatever the manufacturer calls it. I have always wondered how many top productions sound incredibly loud and bright but still smooth and non abrasive- I do think most of the productions are captured by a high quality clock somewhere along the line. Many mastering houses still use the antelope 10 so take that as you will. If us technical engineers didn't understand the science behind it you wouldn't have any converters to subjectively agree or disagree with. We don't just meander about in the dark hoping for the best, sure there is some R&D to improve things but conversion is far from a new subject. We've been over this a million times by now and described exactly what the impact of jitter is. You seem to forget this is all measurable, whilst preferences are up for debate the impact of clocking isn't.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 4, 2022 10:08:50 GMT -6
That's actually the opposite of what's true. Clock jitter will un-align your samples.
Be careful of throwing the word "phase" around as well, all willy nilly. The meaning gets lost when people apply this word too liberally.
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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 10:10:14 GMT -6
Weird how its so hard for some people to hear, let alone acknowledge clocks can improve converters. I’ve heard from many trusted ears that what it basically does is time align/phase align waveforms on a microscopic level and this concurs with what I have personally found to be true. There is this vintage king video where they compare an antelope orion with and without a 10mx. Is it a huge difference? No, but it’s definitely felt imo. The clocked version sounds less abrasive and less harsh while being arguably brighter. The bass is also more in phase which results in more punch and there is a greater sense of depth. Some people just seem to be hyper sensitive to phase while others (lucky them) don’t hear it or don’t want to hear it because they have a preconceived notion of the “science”. Lets be honest: spending 7k on a clock is retarded but a good clock will improve your converter if it’s possible to turn off synchrolock or whatever the manufacturer calls it. I have always wondered how many top productions sound incredibly loud and bright but still smooth and non abrasive- I do think most of the productions are captured by a high quality clock somewhere along the line. Many mastering houses still use the antelope 10 so take that as you will. If us technical engineers didn't understand the science behind it you wouldn't have any converters to subjectively agree or disagree with. We don't just meander about in the dark hoping for the best, sure there is some R&D to improve things but conversion is far from a new subject. We've been over this a million times by now and described exactly what the impact of jitter is. You seem to forget this is all measurable, whilst preferences are up for debate the impact of clocking isn't. If Jitter is a form of phase distortion, why couldnt it also be manipulted to be musical? You conflate lower numbers with musicality. Just because something is more efficient, doesnt mean it sounds better. Case in point: transformers. ICs do the job and way more efficiently, yet most people, even untrained ears prefer the sound of transformers and discrete circuits- at the end of the day music is about emotion not numbers.
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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 10:11:36 GMT -6
That's actually the opposite of what's true. Clock jitter will un-align your samples. Be careful of throwing the word "phase" around as well, all willy nilly. The meaning gets lost when people apply this word too liberally. No offence but are you repeating what you read from „experts“ or did you actually test clocking yourself? It sounds exactly like phase aligning drums for them to have more impact.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 4, 2022 10:12:16 GMT -6
You can say that, sure. But when you try to "redefine" technical information at the same time, that's when the technical people speak up.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 4, 2022 10:12:46 GMT -6
That's actually the opposite of what's true. Clock jitter will un-align your samples. Be careful of throwing the word "phase" around as well, all willy nilly. The meaning gets lost when people apply this word too liberally. No offence but are you repeating what you read from „experts“ or did you actually test clocking yourself? It‘s impossible not to hear in my opinion. I think you'd better take a look at yourself.
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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 10:15:39 GMT -6
No offence but are you repeating what you read from „experts“ or did you actually test clocking yourself? It‘s impossible not to hear in my opinion. I think you'd better take a look at yourself. Take a look at myself? Huh? Did you or did you not test gear our yourself? I tried antelope clocks and bla clocks- they all improved transient response and spatial information (to my ears phase coherency) drastically. But you can quote Dan Lavry all you want. It wont make the difference less real
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 4, 2022 10:16:47 GMT -6
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Post by Guitar on Mar 4, 2022 10:17:32 GMT -6
I agree with John Kennedy, I don't have time for this kind of thing.
When people start to argue with themselves and looking for people to attribute "opponent" opinions to, it's not worth the hot air it takes to respond.
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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 10:21:44 GMT -6
I agree with John Kennedy, I don't have time for this kind of thing. When people start to argue with themselves and looking for people to attribute "opponent" opinions to, it's not worth the hot air it takes to respond. Look, i wasn’t the one getting personal. I just can’t understand people giving opinions on things they never even tried just because they read it somewhere. I asked a simple question and my guess is you haven’t since you did not answer. The internet is full of misinformation, and people interested in this topic might hang on every word they read ( i know i used to)
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Post by Guitar on Mar 4, 2022 10:25:16 GMT -6
I agree with John Kennedy, I don't have time for this kind of thing. When people start to argue with themselves and looking for people to attribute "opponent" opinions to, it's not worth the hot air it takes to respond. Look, i wasn’t the one getting personal. I just can’t understand people giving opinions on things they never even tried just because they read it somewhere. I asked a simple question and my guess is you haven’t since you did not answer. The internet is full of misinformation, and people interested in this topic might hang on every word they read ( i know i used to) You're the person that's doing that! Giving "opinions" and misinformation! Nobody is arguing with the "ears" thing! You can like anything you want when it comes to sound! Just don't mistake yourself for a mythbuster! There's a lot of very, very smart people around here!
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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 10:27:29 GMT -6
Look, i wasn’t the one getting personal. I just can’t understand people giving opinions on things they never even tried just because they read it somewhere. I asked a simple question and my guess is you haven’t since you did not answer. The internet is full of misinformation, and people interested in this topic might hang on every word they read ( i know i used to) You're the person that's doing that! Giving "opinions" and misinformation! Nobody is arguing with the "ears" thing! You can like anything you want when it comes to sound! Just don't mistake yourself for a mythbuster! There's a lot of very, very smart people around here! So sharing the same sentiment as many others in regards to clocking is misinformation while giving opinions on gear you never tried yourself is truthful? Boy, you must work for the US government lmao I’m presuming you have not tried it yourself, as have many others. Next time someone asks why mixes turn out better i’ll say it’s misinformation haha Ok enough of that.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 4, 2022 10:29:00 GMT -6
I like dogs. Cats are neat too.
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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 10:32:45 GMT -6
I like dogs. Cats are neat too. Take it easy. All i’m saying is that maybe there’s more to this than the tests are showing. How can you be sure there is not more at play that the manufacturers dont want to publically disclose. Why should they? If it sounds better and people who listen to their ears (not their eyes) that’s all that matters. No client will care if it has more tech jitter if the sound sounds more punchy and has more “smack”.
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Post by christopher on Mar 4, 2022 10:51:56 GMT -6
Weird how its so hard for some people to hear, let alone acknowledge clocks can improve converters. I’ve heard from many trusted ears that what it basically does is time align/phase align waveforms on a microscopic level and this concurs with what I have personally found to be true. There is this vintage king video where they compare an antelope orion with and without a 10mx. Is it a huge difference? No, but it’s definitely felt imo. The clocked version sounds less abrasive and less harsh while being arguably brighter. The bass is also more in phase which results in more punch and there is a greater sense of depth. Some people just seem to be hyper sensitive to phase while others (lucky them) don’t hear it or don’t want to hear it because they have a preconceived notion of the “science”. Lets be honest: spending 7k on a clock is retarded but a good clock will improve your converter if it’s possible to turn off synchrolock or whatever the manufacturer calls it. I have always wondered how many top productions sound incredibly loud and bright but still smooth and non abrasive- I do think most of the productions are captured by a high quality clock somewhere along the line. Many mastering houses still use the antelope 10 so take that as you will. Eric Valentine has some blind tests he shared that compared with and w/out the expensive clocking. He said he couldn’t pass the test, so he doesn’t use it. I did the tests and it was VERY hard to pass! Ultimately I could not pass it either, so I can’t satisfy the skeptics. However! - and this is where blind testing and brain science has gaps- the few times that I got the answer right, it was because I was able to hear/feel this gorgeous bloom and width. And I knew without a doubt which was which. I couldn’t “feel” that except for about 1-2 times out of 10. And each time I felt it, it was the expensive clock and I chose correct. I tried at least 5 tests, maybe 10 (100 AB’s sigh), and yeah if I could hear/feel that every time I think I would have passed.
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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 10:59:40 GMT -6
Weird how its so hard for some people to hear, let alone acknowledge clocks can improve converters. I’ve heard from many trusted ears that what it basically does is time align/phase align waveforms on a microscopic level and this concurs with what I have personally found to be true. There is this vintage king video where they compare an antelope orion with and without a 10mx. Is it a huge difference? No, but it’s definitely felt imo. The clocked version sounds less abrasive and less harsh while being arguably brighter. The bass is also more in phase which results in more punch and there is a greater sense of depth. Some people just seem to be hyper sensitive to phase while others (lucky them) don’t hear it or don’t want to hear it because they have a preconceived notion of the “science”. Lets be honest: spending 7k on a clock is retarded but a good clock will improve your converter if it’s possible to turn off synchrolock or whatever the manufacturer calls it. I have always wondered how many top productions sound incredibly loud and bright but still smooth and non abrasive- I do think most of the productions are captured by a high quality clock somewhere along the line. Many mastering houses still use the antelope 10 so take that as you will. Eric Valentine has some blind tests he shared that compared with and w/out the expensive clocking. He said he couldn’t pass the test, so he doesn’t use it. I did the tests and it was VERY hard to pass! Ultimately I could not pass it either, so I can’t satisfy the skeptics. However! - and this is where blind testing and brain science has gaps- the few times that I got the answer right, it was because I was able to hear this very minor gorgeous bloom and width. I couldn’t “feel” that except for about 1-2 times out of 10. And each time I felt it, it was the expensive clock and I chose correct. I tried at least 5 tests, and yeah if I could hear/feel that every time I think I would have passed That is completely legitimate. For reasons I'm not entirely sure, a lot of improvement or "worsening" (depending on your view) comes from the type of converter you're clocking to. And Eric Valentine uses a Lavry Gold, which he conveniently leaves out in most of his videos. Probably due to his viewership, which would get discouraged if he talked about too much high end gear. Anyway, that one doesn't seem to benefit much from what I've heard. At the end of the day: some people swear by it and some say it's snake oil. I personally think that by testing it myself I will have a more truthful experience than relying on old articles and some "experts" online who seem to get very emotional when you point out many things that are "technically" true don't hold up in real life practice. I think it's kind of important to actually have experience of the matter and not try to replace experience with "knowledge".
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Post by christopher on Mar 4, 2022 11:12:52 GMT -6
Antelope vs Lavry gold talk about a tough problem 😏
Last project I did was with an Antelope Goliath. Sonically it was a very excellent sound. Nothing wrong with anyone getting the external clock too. I’d jump at Antelope stuff if it weren’t for the reliability issues. And I did have some mysterious 5 second dropout on a channel, distorted cue mixes I could not figure out why, and plenty of reboots through the session. I didn’t have time to find out if any of it was related to the converters or not.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 4, 2022 11:20:20 GMT -6
What's techincally true always holds up in real life. Your opinion about what you're hearing is not related.
It's a fake argument. This is not a "dichotomy." The two things are not related/opposed.
Clock science does not "imply" any hearing based opinion. Neither does a hearing based opinion "imply" any clock science.
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Post by srb on Mar 4, 2022 12:12:59 GMT -6
My balls itch. 😀
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 4, 2022 12:36:52 GMT -6
Weird how its so hard for some people to hear, let alone acknowledge clocks can improve converters. I’ve heard from many trusted ears that what it basically does is time align/phase align waveforms on a microscopic level and this concurs with what I have personally found to be true. There is this vintage king video where they compare an antelope orion with and without a 10mx. Is it a huge difference? No, but it’s definitely felt imo. The clocked version sounds less abrasive and less harsh while being arguably brighter. The bass is also more in phase which results in more punch and there is a greater sense of depth. Some people just seem to be hyper sensitive to phase while others (lucky them) don’t hear it or don’t want to hear it because they have a preconceived notion of the “science”. Lets be honest: spending 7k on a clock is retarded but a good clock will improve your converter if it’s possible to turn off synchrolock or whatever the manufacturer calls it. I have always wondered how many top productions sound incredibly loud and bright but still smooth and non abrasive- I do think most of the productions are captured by a high quality clock somewhere along the line. Many mastering houses still use the antelope 10 so take that as you will. When I got my HEDD 192 many years ago (which has a fantastic clock - well it is a Dave Hill design ) I immediately noticed everything sounded better! Even my RME Multiface sounded better clocked off the HEDD - I was always a sceptic up to that point. So after getting the HEDD 192 I become someone who can hear a quality clock does make a discernible and valuable difference. Though of course "valuable difference" is a relative term.
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Post by nomorel2020 on Mar 4, 2022 12:58:16 GMT -6
Weird how its so hard for some people to hear, let alone acknowledge clocks can improve converters. I’ve heard from many trusted ears that what it basically does is time align/phase align waveforms on a microscopic level and this concurs with what I have personally found to be true. There is this vintage king video where they compare an antelope orion with and without a 10mx. Is it a huge difference? No, but it’s definitely felt imo. The clocked version sounds less abrasive and less harsh while being arguably brighter. The bass is also more in phase which results in more punch and there is a greater sense of depth. Some people just seem to be hyper sensitive to phase while others (lucky them) don’t hear it or don’t want to hear it because they have a preconceived notion of the “science”. Lets be honest: spending 7k on a clock is retarded but a good clock will improve your converter if it’s possible to turn off synchrolock or whatever the manufacturer calls it. I have always wondered how many top productions sound incredibly loud and bright but still smooth and non abrasive- I do think most of the productions are captured by a high quality clock somewhere along the line. Many mastering houses still use the antelope 10 so take that as you will. When I got my HEDD 192 many years ago (which has a fantastic clock - well it is a Dave Hill design ) I immediately noticed everything sounded better! Even my RME Multiface sounded better clocked off the HEDD - I was always a sceptic up to that point. So after getting the HEDD 192 I become someone who can hear a quality clock does make a discernible and valuable difference. Though of course "valuable difference" is a relative term. Well, according to forums and “experts” youre wrong and are spreading misinformation ha! *insert dan lavry article here*
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Post by notneeson on Mar 4, 2022 13:03:32 GMT -6
Please make it stop.
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Post by tkaitkai on Mar 4, 2022 13:14:12 GMT -6
And Eric Valentine uses a Lavry Gold, which he conveniently leaves out in most of his videos. Probably due to his viewership, which would get discouraged if he talked about too much high end gear.Uh... Eric is almost constantly talking about his multiple UnFairchilds, which run about $11,000 each. He's literally made entire videos dedicated to just that specific piece. And he's never been shy about discussing various other high end gear that's just as lavish/exotic as the Lavry Gold (i.e. vintage 251s, C12s, Altec compressors, etc.). I'm a huge Eric Valentine fan (he's pretty much my favorite producer), but my experience with clocking has been different. I've worked with another producer whose work I have equal respect for, and the 10MX plays a big role in his setup. It's a truly gorgeous sound, IMO, but different things work for different people. FWIW, Eric has also challenged the importance of converters, which again, my experience runs contrary. Still, you can't argue with Eric's track record. His work speaks for itself. And dude, no need to turn this into a mudslinging flame war type of ordeal. RGO rules and is generally a super respectful/friendly place. Let's keep it that way.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2022 13:23:17 GMT -6
If us technical engineers didn't understand the science behind it you wouldn't have any converters to subjectively agree or disagree with. We don't just meander about in the dark hoping for the best, sure there is some R&D to improve things but conversion is far from a new subject. We've been over this a million times by now and described exactly what the impact of jitter is. You seem to forget this is all measurable, whilst preferences are up for debate the impact of clocking isn't. If Jitter is a form of phase distortion, why couldnt it also be manipulted to be musical? You conflate lower numbers with musicality. Just because something is more efficient, doesnt mean it sounds better. Case in point: transformers. ICs do the job and way more efficiently, yet most people, even untrained ears prefer the sound of transformers and discrete circuits- at the end of the day music is about emotion not numbers. Well that's not really my point, some people like 12-bit converters in old digital reverbs but in terms of technical statistics they utterly suck but generally the differences in terms of converters mainly stem from analogue I/O. Jitter is what's caused by clocking inaccuracies (sample delays) inducing distortion. As said at first the stereo field will begin to collapse, it'll sound like you can't define instruments as well and spacial awareness becomes difficult, at a certain point you'll just get audible distortion. However in modern converter design especially the higher end pro audio stuff we're talking sub pico clocking and since the introduction of technologies like PLL (phased lock loop) jitter has become pretty much none existent. That doesn't mean that every design is great, it doesn't mean that every converter sounds the exact same. Heck even on the audio sciences reviews some aren't ruler flat 20 - 20Khz and neither is the third order harmonic distortion for example quite correct etc., there are also semi-quantifiable relationships between distortion and human hearing despite it being minute. I've said this all along, just because something is "technically perfect" it doesn't mean we actually prefer it. For example I worked on a digital audio product with something called VAD which is sorta like comfort noise, whenever you switched it off and the line goes silent everyone started going "hello? Hellooo?".. Funny old thing the human brain. That said the amount of psychoacoustic wrongs I've come across is also utterly staggering, I've seen engineers turning knobs an EQ saying this sounds better and it wasn't even switched on. It's best to know about both sides of the story to really start questioning others opinions, after decades of this I came to a simple conclusion, whatever works for you .
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