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Post by petergreeny on Sept 22, 2022 6:11:13 GMT -6
Yes I know this. I was answering plinker's question. Any update on the sound of the MK IV converters and analog stages? |
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Post by the other mark williams on Sept 22, 2022 14:14:00 GMT -6
Yes I know this. I was answering plinker's question. Any update on the sound of the MK IV converters and analog stages? I still haven’t done the upgrade, so I’m unable to comment from personal experience, unfortunately. I read good things from people on the MIO Listserv, though. |
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Post by indrasnet on Sept 22, 2022 14:26:04 GMT -6
Yes I know this. I was answering plinker's question. Any update on the sound of the MK IV converters and analog stages? Not much is out there except a few anecdotal comments. The mkiv uses filtering that applies a phase shift above 10khz and offers a bit more extension in the air frequencies. The mk3 converters use a linear phase approach. There was a post by BJ that mentioned adding selectable filtering options in MIO console in the future. Even with the phase corrected in testing the mkiv scores a touch less accurate than the mk3 converters in file difference testing, fwiw. The mkiv runs cooler and has lower converter latency. (Drivers still not great RTL) |
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Post by sirthought on Sept 22, 2022 16:00:52 GMT -6
I don't use Metric Halo, but I've read how people are using MIO with the MK3 to match other DAC like Solaris.
Came across this.
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Post by 79sg on Sept 22, 2022 16:34:48 GMT -6
I literally was planning on coming back to this thread yesterday.
Received my ULN8 MKIV back in December and upgraded 2 additional ULN8’s when the upgrade kits recently became available.
I believe once these upgrade kits sell out the next time they’ll be available will be mid next year. Who knows?
FWIW here is my experience so far vs 3d (which I really liked): Smoother top end, tighter lows, seems to have more depth and clarity, improved latency, far less heat (can stack them on each other in the rack if desired), uses less power.
Worth it? To me yes, I think it sounds great.
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Post by indrasnet on Sept 22, 2022 16:38:03 GMT -6
I literally was planning on coming back to this thread yesterday. Received my ULN8 MKIV back in December and upgraded 2 additional ULN8’s when the upgrade kits recently became available. I believe once these upgrade kits sell out the next time they’ll be available will be mid next year. Who knows? FWIW here is my experience so far vs 3d (which I really liked): Smoother top end, tighter lows, seems to have more depth and clarity, improved latency, far less heat (can stack them on each other in the rack if desired), uses less power. Worth it? To me yes, I think it sounds great. How's the AD compared to the previous? |
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Post by 79sg on Sept 22, 2022 16:51:35 GMT -6
The mkiv is a new analog board (same mic pres however), etc. DA unchanged.
I had no issues with 3d but mkiv sounds better to me. Again, the top end is smoother and lows are tighter and a little fuller.
A few clients noticed a difference as well.
I could have continued with 3d and remained happy but I like to support MH for many reasons and this “upgrade” which came out of necessity for them is an improvement to 3d otherwise I do not believe they would have done it.
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Post by indrasnet on Sept 22, 2022 16:55:04 GMT -6
The mkiv is a new analog board (same mic press however), etc. DA unchanged. I had no issues with 3d but mkiv sounds better to me. Again, the top end is smoother and lows are tighter and a little fuller. A few clients noticed a difference as well. I could have continued with 3d and remained happy but I like to support MH for many reasons and this “upgrade” which came out of necessity for them is an improvement otherwise I do not believe they would have done it. No, the MKIV is new TI AD and DA converters on redesigned 'analog' boards. The 'digital'board is the USB/mhlink design |
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Post by 79sg on Sept 22, 2022 17:11:01 GMT -6
Taken from their website for hardware upgrades:
mkIV Analog Board Upgrade Kit for ULN-8/LIO-8 3d
This kit includes a new mkIV Analog Board and mkIV Relay Mute board + updated dome tags for your existing 3d (MHLink) based ULN-8 or LIO-8.
I stand corrected, both AD and DA are on the same board, my apologies.
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Post by indrasnet on Sept 22, 2022 17:23:55 GMT -6
Taken from their website for hardware upgrades: mkIV Analog Board Upgrade Kit for ULN-8/LIO-8 3d This kit includes a new mkIV Analog Board and mkIV Relay Mute board + updated dome tags for your existing 3d (MHLink) based ULN-8 or LIO-8. I stand corrected, both AD and DA are on the same board, my apologies. No worries, it was unclear to me as well what the changes were when they first announced. BJ wrote about it last year on the email group I believe. |
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Post by plinker on Sept 23, 2022 7:03:32 GMT -6
I pretty quickly heard the differences in the synth tracks referenced before (and from GS). It's noticeable and exactly what I like.
Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to buy the upgrade for my 2x ULN8 units. I'll wait until next year when, hopefully, the supply-chain/prices settle down.
I appreciate all the people who are able to invest, and support MH, at this point!!!
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Post by plinker on Jul 5, 2023 10:27:47 GMT -6
Fast-forward 11 months -- new hardware units and MkIV upgrades are available... Current pricing on the MkIV is $1000 for 1, and $900/each if buying more than 1. I need 2. Ugh! 79sg : do you remember what the cost of the MkIV upgrade was when you bought it last year? |
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Post by maldenfilms on Jul 5, 2023 11:03:42 GMT -6
Fast-forward 11 months -- new hardware units and MkIV upgrades are available... Current pricing on the MkIV is $1000 for 1, and $900/each if buying more than 1. I need 2. Ugh! 79sg : do you remember what the cost of the MkIV upgrade was when you bought it last year? I bought mine when it was first released it and it was also $1000 for one. It's been nothing but solid. The sound is great and the latency was lowered with the mkIV board. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 12:03:47 GMT -6
They have modern converters now but use minimum phase anti alias filters 🤦♂️
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 5, 2023 15:10:41 GMT -6
There are pros and cons to both minimum phase and linear phase.
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Post by maldenfilms on Jul 5, 2023 16:08:08 GMT -6
Yeah, they went with the minimum phase filters after a doing a lot of critical listening tests. The minimum phase filters sounded better, so that's what I trust were the right decision. I agree that after the update it sounds better.
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Post by maldenfilms on Jul 5, 2023 16:11:27 GMT -6
To be fair, these converters already sounded incredibly clear, clean, and accurate. If anything, they've just gotten a little more "natural" sounding, or perhaps more "analog" sounding if I dare use such a cliched term!
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Post by reddirt on Jul 5, 2023 18:35:59 GMT -6
Might be an "if it sounds good it is good" moment dare I say. I have an older ULN-2 (2010) which not only sounds above average but works every time.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by plinker on Jul 5, 2023 20:44:57 GMT -6
They have modern converters now but use minimum phase anti alias filters 🤦♂️ Here is a description of the hows and whys from Metric Halo (copied from GS): The (bulk of the) difference in the loopback measurement is due to the minimum phase Anti-aliasing/Anti-imaging filters in the ADC and DAC. These are required for the lower latency in the converters, which is one of the most-frequently received requests we have recieved over the years.
As a result of the low-latency filter, there is a phase-shift at the high end of the audio band, and that phase shift is what leads to the increased residual.
The linear phase filters in the previous generation have less phase shift, but also have pre-ring. In our estimation the filters without the pre-ring, but with the phase shift sound better (more natural, less congested).
The mkIV is flatter up to a higher frequency than the mkIII; it doesn't boost the higher frequencies, it just rolls off higher.
That all said, the converters do support a linear-phase mode at the expense of increased latency and added pre-ring; we don't current provide control over it in the UI, but we were planning on providing it in a future update.
For certain applications where you are concerned with the high-end phase shift, it may be that would be a good choice to use the linear phase; that said, we spent a lot of time evaluating it, and came to the conclusion that the low-latency filters sounded better than the linear phase filters in either the new converters or the old converters. YMMV, so exposing it as a user controllable feature seems perfectly reasonable.
----- It appears that in a future release of the MIOConsole software, users will be able to toggle between linear phase and minimal phase filters -- which is super-cool! BTW, the reason they changed chips from AKG to TI is that the AKG factory burned down. |
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Post by chipbuttie on Jul 6, 2023 6:50:39 GMT -6
They have modern converters now but use minimum phase anti alias filters 🤦♂️ Have you heard a mkiv? |
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Post by notneeson on Jul 6, 2023 9:45:53 GMT -6
There are pros and cons to both minimum phase and linear phase. Yeah, I was reading this thinking that some very accomplished AE’s particularly dislike linear phase EQs. Interested to hear these some day. |
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Post by plinker on Oct 11, 2023 18:04:19 GMT -6
Just to revisit ---
I installed 2x Mk4 upgrades in my ULN8s. I heard a marked improvement. However, my units were old and still had the original, electrolytic, caps on the analog board. That analog board upgrade was about $375, at the time, and just replaced the caps with something more resilient. It took a while for the original board/caps to become stable after boot-up. I can only guess how much signal degradation was present in them prior to the Mk4 upgrade.
I use 300 ohm, HD600 cans, so the headphone upgrade was also a big deal for me.
All-in-all -- totally worth it for my situation.
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Post by ericn on Oct 11, 2023 18:16:36 GMT -6
I've been reading their website about all this thing is designed to handle. I'm surprised more people aren't using this brand. The design is incredible, considering all that it can do. Halo has never been about advertising. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 11, 2023 20:10:50 GMT -6
Just to revisit --- I installed 2x Mk4 upgrades in my ULN8s. I heard a marked improvement. However, my units were old and still had the original, electrolytic, caps on the analog board. That upgrade was about $375, at the time. It took a while for them to become stable after boot-up. I can only guess how much signal degradation was present in them prior to the Mk4 upgrade. I use 300 ohm, HD600 cans, so the headphone upgrade was also a big deal for me. All-in-all -- totally worth it for my situation. Still haven't had a big enough chunk of time to install mine! Hopefully in the next two weeks. |
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Post by keymod on Oct 13, 2023 7:50:09 GMT -6
Just to revisit --- I installed 2x Mk4 upgrades in my ULN8s. I heard a marked improvement. However, my units were old and still had the original, electrolytic, caps on the analog board. That upgrade was about $375, at the time. It took a while for them to become stable after boot-up. I can only guess how much signal degradation was present in them prior to the Mk4 upgrade. I use 300 ohm, HD600 cans, so the headphone upgrade was also a big deal for me. All-in-all -- totally worth it for my situation. Still haven't had a big enough chunk of time to install mine! Hopefully in the next two weeks. Same for me |
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