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Post by johneppstein on Nov 9, 2021 13:25:24 GMT -6
Let me tell you why I've gone mostly ITB after decades of mostly OTB or hybrid.. Ease of use. Lets face it, everything is at you fingertips with a keyboard and mouse. Recall. I can just save versions as I go and if I get backed into a corner, I just open a different version or select an earlier history point. NOISE. One of the biggest things I always fought was noise. No matter how low the noise floor of your devices, they aggregate and build up. After all the compression and gain I got tired of hearing hiss only 30-40dB down. Power/heat. The room is cooler, my power bill is slightly less. I used to have to run the AC even in the winter when I had sessions.. Repair. I don't have to maintain and repair gear regularly like I used to. Costs.. One good plugin that I can use across a bunch of channels costs WAAAAY less than having actual hardware across a bunch of channels. Space. I had 3 full racks full of gear and another closet full of gear that I would trade in and out depending on what I was doing. Now I select it from a menu. Sound. I can't tell the difference between the hardware and software anymore and I don't care to A/B for tiny little differences that you can't hear in a mix. I put the plugs on the tracks and do my thing. Speed. I just reuse my templates and adjust whatever I need to adjust for the next session. I can reroute or change things in seconds instead of minutes or hours. But I still use some hardware on the inputs, but so far it's patched for the task at hand. Bass will always get a tube pre, EQ and 1176. vocals will always get neve preamp and 1176, etc. Ease of use - hrdware wins every time for me - now that I'm old I have a tremor in my right hand that makes any precision with a mouse impossible. Mice do not work for everybody. Knobs are also more precise.
Repair - Yeah. Now you just throw it away when it breaks and you can't get parts.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 9, 2021 13:33:01 GMT -6
Let me tell you why I've gone mostly ITB after decades of mostly OTB or hybrid.. Ease of use. Lets face it, everything is at you fingertips with a keyboard and mouse. Recall. I can just save versions as I go and if I get backed into a corner, I just open a different version or select an earlier history point. NOISE. One of the biggest things I always fought was noise. No matter how low the noise floor of your devices, they aggregate and build up. After all the compression and gain I got tired of hearing hiss only 30-40dB down. Power/heat. The room is cooler, my power bill is slightly less. I used to have to run the AC even in the winter when I had sessions.. Repair. I don't have to maintain and repair gear regularly like I used to. Costs.. One good plugin that I can use across a bunch of channels costs WAAAAY less than having actual hardware across a bunch of channels. Space. I had 3 full racks full of gear and another closet full of gear that I would trade in and out depending on what I was doing. Now I select it from a menu. Sound. I can't tell the difference between the hardware and software anymore and I don't care to A/B for tiny little differences that you can't hear in a mix. I put the plugs on the tracks and do my thing. Speed. I just reuse my templates and adjust whatever I need to adjust for the next session. I can reroute or change things in seconds instead of minutes or hours. But I still use some hardware on the inputs, but so far it's patched for the task at hand. Bass will always get a tube pre, EQ and 1176. vocals will always get neve preamp and 1176, etc. Ease of use - hrdware wins every time for me - now that I'm old I have a tremor in my right hand that makes any precision with a mouse impossible. Mice do not work for everybody. Knobs are also more precise.
Repair - Yeah. Now you just throw it away when it breaks and you can't get parts.
Other than some fiddly 500 series gear I guess. To me the Pultec and the UA 1176 hardware are perfect examples of "big knob" hardware, iconic, functional. |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 9, 2021 14:45:27 GMT -6
Let me tell you why I've gone mostly ITB after decades of mostly OTB or hybrid.. Ease of use. Lets face it, everything is at you fingertips with a keyboard and mouse. Recall. I can just save versions as I go and if I get backed into a corner, I just open a different version or select an earlier history point. NOISE. One of the biggest things I always fought was noise. No matter how low the noise floor of your devices, they aggregate and build up. After all the compression and gain I got tired of hearing hiss only 30-40dB down. Power/heat. The room is cooler, my power bill is slightly less. I used to have to run the AC even in the winter when I had sessions.. Repair. I don't have to maintain and repair gear regularly like I used to. Costs.. One good plugin that I can use across a bunch of channels costs WAAAAY less than having actual hardware across a bunch of channels. Space. I had 3 full racks full of gear and another closet full of gear that I would trade in and out depending on what I was doing. Now I select it from a menu. Sound. I can't tell the difference between the hardware and software anymore and I don't care to A/B for tiny little differences that you can't hear in a mix. I put the plugs on the tracks and do my thing. Speed. I just reuse my templates and adjust whatever I need to adjust for the next session. I can reroute or change things in seconds instead of minutes or hours. But I still use some hardware on the inputs, but so far it's patched for the task at hand. Bass will always get a tube pre, EQ and 1176. vocals will always get neve preamp and 1176, etc. Ease of use - hrdware wins every time for me - now that I'm old I have a tremor in my right hand that makes any precision with a mouse impossible. Mice do not work for everybody. Knobs are also more precise. Repair - Yeah. Now you just throw it away when it breaks and you can't get parts.
I understand that many AE tend to use HW. But now in the Corona time I was like OK give it a try again. The problem with ITB is.
1. Nothing to touch with your fingers.
2. It is like with hardware, you need to know what the tools are able to do, and what not. It's a wise idea to limit the choice of tools in favorites folder and to stop to buy new plug ins everyday.
For me. I now know what the tools can do. For example, I require a nice smooth 60s Ballad Base Sound. Its now: JB-DI -> VPRE 562 -> Magnetide-TP-SIM -> VLA2A BRA -> Kelvin -> Sonnox Inflator for dialing in fatness to taste and pre comp dynamics. Sometimes I use some Side harmonics and or HW-Tube-Harmonics in parallel.
Just for the record - yes, it can be done. Is it the same workflow - no way...
Seen from the point of intuitive decisions, ITB is light years away. The only solution I have found to this is to work with a timer and I do 5 minutes breaks every 25-35 minutes.
Cheers A.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2021 3:20:46 GMT -6
The question I always ask is how did they record it? I also technically speaking mix "ITB only" after its been through a Shelford Channel, an LA-2A, a 1176 and is pretty much mixed before I even reach for a plugin. I started asking this question when my first foray into ITB only was a sonic car crash and decided to test out some NIN mixing templates, I could get them to sound pretty close with little effort so.. Hmmm...
Anyway, with some decent tracking equipment everything is less of a chore and it sounds how I'd expect it to. The ITB bit is just polish / effects really..
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Post by M57 on Nov 10, 2021 7:59:10 GMT -6
This has been an elucidating thread.. Here are some of my takeaways and thoughts on how it may influence my decisions moving forward.
Issues like recall aside, sonically speaking (and with some exceptions) the ITB vs hardware debate has become more and more of a 'personal preference' than a 'which sounds better' debate. ITB emulations are just getting better and better, and are often much more flexible.
A lot of folks who are rocking the hybrid use a "find the sweet-spot, set and forget" strategy and find it an effective way to deal with recall issues. Once recorded, printing (and committing) tracks through hardware is another way.
As a DIY Singer-songwriter with no deadlines to speak of and no one to tell me to make silly minor changes, I'm tempted to go with a basic hybrid set up. I already have an AS Buss Comp that sits on the 2 and never gets touched with the needle barely moving ..and I love it. I don't have golden ears that that you pros have, but I'll be damned if it doesn't impart something that I can't get from any plugin I've tried to date. Now I'm thinking of getting maybe one or two boxes to use to print (and commit) individual tracks (and maybe some sub-mixes) with the idea that their knobs will get turned all the time, and that's ok. Luckily, I'm in a situation where I can go back and reprint those "committed" tracks if I REALLY need to.
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Post by jmoose on Nov 19, 2021 13:56:46 GMT -6
This has been an elucidating thread.. Here are some of my takeaways and thoughts on how it may influence my decisions moving forward. Issues like recall aside, sonically speaking (and with some exceptions) the ITB vs hardware debate has become more and more of a 'personal preference' than a 'which sounds better' debate. ITB emulations are just getting better and better, and are often much more flexible. From where I sit there isn't much debate at all. When it comes to tone? Hardware wins. TKO. No contest. I don't know a single person who mixes ITB and says that they prefer it over having a desk & outboard. Its always justified by either, for working professionals... recall & ease of use... and/or finances vs personal investment. Have a friend who's a "big deal" producer & mix guy. Won't name drop but you've probably heard of him and everyone including your mom absolutely knows at least a few of the artists he's worked with. Yet he also continues to work with indie artists & anyone who can find him if he digs the music. He primarily mixes ITB these days. At least for the self financed indie projects. All UAD all the time. Sold most of his personal hardware... Why? Because he got divorced. That won't come up in interviews... like if Sound on Sound or Pensado get their mitts on him. But get him alone over a couple beers? When he gets a real band with a real budget? They go to a real studio and spread that thing out across a real desk because there's time allotted to getting those results. All that said? Past a certain point of experience... if someone really knows their way around ITB vs OTB isn't going to make a lot of difference between "this sucks" and "this rocks" - it comes down to sitting in the pilots seat and making decisions. And at that point you can crash the plane and have a giant fireball or put it down gently and walk away. |
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Post by svart on Nov 19, 2021 14:08:37 GMT -6
This has been an elucidating thread.. Here are some of my takeaways and thoughts on how it may influence my decisions moving forward. Issues like recall aside, sonically speaking (and with some exceptions) the ITB vs hardware debate has become more and more of a 'personal preference' than a 'which sounds better' debate. ITB emulations are just getting better and better, and are often much more flexible. From where I sit there isn't much debate at all. When it comes to tone? Hardware wins. TKO. No contest. I don't know a single person who mixes ITB and says that they prefer it over having a desk & outboard. Its always justified by either, for working professionals... recall & ease of use... and/or finances vs personal investment. Have a friend who's a "big deal" producer & mix guy. Won't name drop but you've probably heard of him and everyone including your mom absolutely knows at least a few of the artists he's worked with. Yet he also continues to work with indie artists & anyone who can find him if he digs the music. He primarily mixes ITB these days. At least for the self financed indie projects. All UAD all the time. Sold most of his personal hardware... Why? Because he got divorced. That won't come up in interviews... like if Sound on Sound or Pensado get their mitts on him. But get him alone over a couple beers? When he gets a real band with a real budget? They go to a real studio and spread that thing out across a real desk because there's time allotted to getting those results. All that said? Past a certain point of experience... if someone really knows their way around ITB vs OTB isn't going to make a lot of difference between "this sucks" and "this rocks" - it comes down to sitting in the pilots seat and making decisions. And at that point you can crash the plane and have a giant fireball or put it down gently and walk away. I do, now. Honestly I find it very much the same. A/B wise it might sound different but I've learned that you just make changes and move on. I think that personally I made too much ado about nothing in this regard. |
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Post by jmoose on Nov 19, 2021 14:44:42 GMT -6
I do, now. Honestly I find it very much the same. A/B wise it might sound different but I've learned that you just make changes and move on. I think that personally I made too much ado about nothing in this regard. Didn't you have an Alesis console or something? I'd rather mix ITB then on a mediocre desk... Sure! Agree with you there! Absolutely. Won't get an argument there from me! My point was that all things being equal there are other, often undisclosed factors that often worm their way into what equipment someone chooses. Like divorce. Or physical location. Finances. Perfect example is Tchad Blake. He often gets pointed to as the high water mark for someone who mixes ITB these days... Key words being "these days" most of his best known, highest regarded stuff is from his analog days in the 90s... like those great albums he did with Mitchell Froom. Soul Coughing... Los Lobos... He's said point blank, even at the last AES show in front of a couple hundred people that the reason he's mixing in PT is because he's living in a small villa in the middle of nowhere Italy where there's no tech support for analog gear. That's cool. Location is a factor for him. If he was still living in LA it'd probably be different? Dunno. Can't answer for him but reading between the lines? Seemed to be implied... just my takeaway from his live "mix with the masters" Q&A. |
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Post by svart on Nov 19, 2021 14:49:42 GMT -6
I do, now. Honestly I find it very much the same. A/B wise it might sound different but I've learned that you just make changes and move on. I think that personally I made too much ado about nothing in this regard. Didn't you have an Alesis console or something? I'd rather mix ITB then on a mediocre desk... Sure! Agree with you there! Absolutely. Won't get an argument there from me! My point was that all things being equal there are other, often undisclosed factors that often worm their way into what equipment someone chooses. Like divorce. Or physical location. Finances. Perfect example is Tchad Blake. He often gets pointed to as the high water mark for someone who mixes ITB these days... Key words being "these days" most of his best known, highest regarded stuff is from his analog days in the 90s... like those great albums he did with Mitchell Froom. Soul Coughing... Los Lobos... He's said point blank, even at the last AES show in front of a couple hundred people that the reason he's mixing in PT is because he's living in a small villa in the middle of nowhere Italy where there's no tech support for analog gear. That's cool. Location is a factor for him. If he was still living in LA it'd probably be different? Dunno. Can't answer for him but reading between the lines? Seemed to be implied... just my takeaway from his live "mix with the masters" Q&A. Eh, yeah I have an Alesis X2.. You know, their 50K$ console from back in 1995.. Anyway, it's performance was on par with SSL, so very not mediocre. |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 19, 2021 14:53:27 GMT -6
From where I sit there isn't much debate at all. When it comes to tone? Hardware wins. TKO. No contest. I don't know a single person who mixes ITB and says that they prefer it over having a desk & outboard. Its always justified by either, for working professionals... recall & ease of use... and/or finances vs personal investment. Have a friend who's a "big deal" producer & mix guy. Won't name drop but you've probably heard of him and everyone including your mom absolutely knows at least a few of the artists he's worked with. Yet he also continues to work with indie artists & anyone who can find him if he digs the music. He primarily mixes ITB these days. At least for the self financed indie projects. All UAD all the time. Sold most of his personal hardware... Why? Because he got divorced. That won't come up in interviews... like if Sound on Sound or Pensado get their mitts on him. But get him alone over a couple beers? When he gets a real band with a real budget? They go to a real studio and spread that thing out across a real desk because there's time allotted to getting those results. All that said? Past a certain point of experience... if someone really knows their way around ITB vs OTB isn't going to make a lot of difference between "this sucks" and "this rocks" - it comes down to sitting in the pilots seat and making decisions. And at that point you can crash the plane and have a giant fireball or put it down gently and walk away. I do, now. Honestly I find it very much the same. A/B wise it might sound different but I've learned that you just make changes and move on. I think that personally I made too much ado about nothing in this regard.
Yes it's a lot of self-fulfilling prophecies like "it can't be done ITB". If you think like this, you will always find a reason why it sucks.
But humans can turn around their thoughts. I just can repeat myself, sticking with the plug ins you like is a key factor for successful mixing ITB. In a HW studio, you don't change the hardware every few weeks. Some of the most classics are based on designs from the 50s.
What helps me a lot. When I want to mimic a certain way of sound because I like it, I read about which tools were common in this time. Maybe I do more corrections working ITB, but the sound comes together in the end.
I am just a little annoyed at the moment, I can't finish one mix because of main business trouble.
But it's ITB, at least I can work on a new idea, without getting in recall trouble.
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BTW, yesterday a student showed me a Metal Band. Not my music but we listed over my monitors and I said wow this mix sounds fat like on a console.
But the Band mixes fully ITB today. I was like OK.... the old saying that hard music needs hardware is no longer legit.
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Post by svart on Nov 19, 2021 15:35:35 GMT -6
I do, now. Honestly I find it very much the same. A/B wise it might sound different but I've learned that you just make changes and move on. I think that personally I made too much ado about nothing in this regard.
Yes it's a lot of self-fulfilling prophecies like "it can't be done ITB". If you think like this, you will always find a reason why it sucks.
But humans can turn around their thoughts. I just can repeat myself, sticking with the plug ins you like is a key factor for successful mixing ITB. In a HW studio, you don't change the hardware every few weeks. Some of the most classics are based on designs from the 50s.
What helps me a lot. When I want to mimic a certain way of sound because I like it, I read about which tools were common in this time. Maybe I do more corrections working ITB, but the sound comes together in the end.
I am just a little annoyed at the moment, I can't finish one mix because of main business trouble.
But it's ITB, at least I can work on a new idea, without getting in recall trouble.
-
BTW, yesterday a student showed me a Metal Band. Not my music but we listed over my monitors and I said wow this mix sounds fat like on a console.
But the Band mixes fully ITB today. I was like OK.... the old saying that hard music needs hardware is no longer legit.
I resisted the idea that ITB could be as good for the longest time. I was invested, both monetarily and emotionally in believing that I somehow had a leg up on the competition by using mostly hardware, yet I kept hearing myself fall farther behind others. As we've said before, sometimes you just have to adopt the processes that others succeed with so that you can stay relevant and competitive. Switching wasn't quick, but the realization that I had been holding myself back was very quick. It's fundamentally the same, but also very different in application. It didn't take long for me to overcome the issues that I couldn't overcome with all my racks of hardware and mixer and now I'm doing the best work of my life. I could probably jump back on the mixer and apply what I've learned and it might be as good, but it would never be as fast or efficient as I am now. |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 19, 2021 16:02:30 GMT -6
Yes it's a lot of self-fulfilling prophecies like "it can't be done ITB". If you think like this, you will always find a reason why it sucks. But humans can turn around their thoughts. I just can repeat myself, sticking with the plug ins you like is a key factor for successful mixing ITB. In a HW studio, you don't change the hardware every few weeks. Some of the most classics are based on designs from the 50s. What helps me a lot. When I want to mimic a certain way of sound because I like it, I read about which tools were common in this time. Maybe I do more corrections working ITB, but the sound comes together in the end. I am just a little annoyed at the moment, I can't finish one mix because of main business trouble.
But it's ITB, at least I can work on a new idea, without getting in recall trouble. - BTW, yesterday a student showed me a Metal Band. Not my music but we listed over my monitors and I said wow this mix sounds fat like on a console. But the Band mixes fully ITB today. I was like OK.... the old saying that hard music needs hardware is no longer legit.
I resisted the idea that ITB could be as good for the longest time. I was invested, both monetarily and emotionally in believing that I somehow had a leg up on the competition by using mostly hardware, yet I kept hearing myself fall farther behind others. As we've said before, sometimes you just have to adopt the processes that others succeed with so that you can stay relevant and competitive. Switching wasn't quick, but the realization that I had been holding myself back was very quick. It's fundamentally the same, but also very different in application. It didn't take long for me to overcome the issues that I couldn't overcome with all my racks of hardware and mixer and now I'm doing the best work of my life. I could probably jump back on the mixer and apply what I've learned and it might be as good, but it would never be as fast or efficient as I am now.[/ True... Its super fast with using the 24 fader bank of the Raven its more funny too. I never mixed faster special the automation goes super smooth using the fine faders One more thing comes to my mind I am not a professional AE being able to go easily back is the only reason why I get good sounding mixes. |
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Post by Guitar on Nov 19, 2021 16:25:58 GMT -6
It's kind of unfair to say, "I have racks full of hardware, therefore I know." To someone that's mixing in the box, that doesn't have any. "I have all this stuff so I know better." That's got to be some kind of logical fallacy, I don't know them. You've won the "argument" before it's even been started.
This whole thing about justifying expensive gear gets pretty tiresome, to me. I'm in the wrong hobby.
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Post by gouge on Nov 19, 2021 16:35:11 GMT -6
something i've noticed is the less otb i do the better itb sounds.
that and the software is getting better and better and the hardware is capable of running higher res.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2021 22:19:59 GMT -6
It's kind of unfair to say, "I have racks full of hardware, therefore I know." To someone that's mixing in the box, that doesn't have any. "I have all this stuff so I know better." That's got to be some kind of logical fallacy, I don't know them. You've won the "argument" before it's even been started. This whole thing about justifying expensive gear gets pretty tiresome, to me. I'm in the wrong hobby. IME pro audio forums aren't always indicative of what happens in reality. Most of the working engineers I've met IRL and talked to extensively on places like GS use equipment as a means to an end, the HW or software is there to perform a function or solve an issue. It isn't just about subjective preference but getting the best take in the most efficient way. I used to talk to an award winning engineer on GS who used his console as a mouse mat and radiator.. Made me laugh because I used to have the exact same console, fortunately I'm not precious about audio equipment  .. I won't deny that my stint into HW mainly stemmed from not knowing what I was looking for, being unable to identify markers to solve specific issues etc. Once I bought the original HW and used it extensively I learned from it, however not much of it remains today. Some of the earlier plugs were a bit meh, I could never get on with the UA legacy LA-2A's or 1176's (looking forward to trying out the new one's though) and some HW I just can't do without but we're only talking a few decent mic's / tracking HW and monitors. The rest is just a fancy, I'll plainly state as such. svart has made some cracking posts recently, a bit behind the curve  but I couldn't agree more in a lot of instances. A friend of mine who lives pretty close is a talented yet lesser known engineer who makes very nice sounding hi-fi modern tracks, his approach to things is exactly like what Svart stated, lots of boosting, distortion, limiting, parallel or L/R manipulation and whilst the individual tracks sound a bit weird in the context of a mix my word.. I'll just say that his equipment isn't technically anywhere near on my level and whenever I show off the next shiny piece his first question is always, will it get me to my end goal faster? He really just couldn't give a crap and y'know what I've come round to their way of thinking. |
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Post by jmoose on Nov 19, 2021 23:30:55 GMT -6
It's kind of unfair to say, "I have racks full of hardware, therefore I know." To someone that's mixing in the box, that doesn't have any. "I have all this stuff so I know better." That's got to be some kind of logical fallacy, I don't know them. You've won the "argument" before it's even been started. This whole thing about justifying expensive gear gets pretty tiresome, to me. I'm in the wrong hobby. Unfair..? How so? We're certainly approaching things from vastly different angles... For one thing audio production isn't my hobby. It's my profession. Easy to say without stretching that working professionals have more seat time invested. Audio production or driving racecars... Carpenter's? No real differences. Lask of personal experience doesn't automatically qualify or disqualify opinions vs reality. Like, I don't need Jeff Gordon to tell me that what he whipped around the track every week is completely different then the Chevy I drive. When it comes to racing he's got way more seat time so I'd tend to believe anything he says on the subject. Great news is these days it's easier then ever to get hands on experience. I could do Skip Barber racing school... you could book a great shop for your next record. These days the best cats are using both analog tools & digital tools. But the tools don't build the house... the studio gear doesn't control the outcome. The final results are defined by whoever's in the pilots seat. |
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Post by Guitar on Nov 20, 2021 8:49:30 GMT -6
@soriantis nice perspective! I agree, forums are once removed from real life. Your friend sounds like a friend of mine. It's good to know people like that! You show them all this stuff and it's like, "Who cares? Can you make me sound good? Let's get on with it..." I think that's a healthy attitude. As much as I'm a tech-head and love messing with these "toys." But to be fair I'm also pretty busy making music most of the time, too, it's not just a pure fancy. To me, it's a very fine line between luxury and ease of use. Hell, I might even sell some big desirable things I'm just not using, to cross that line the right way. jmoose yes I'm sure every one of us has a different workflow, that requires a different setup, I'm not knocking that. I'll skip the pro/non-pro thing since that's not that interesting to me. Just to go back to what Soriantis said, people use tools as a means to an end. It's just this tired forum stuff that gets to me, people looking across the fence, saying oh plugins are terrible, making excuses for professionals using plugins, etc. I know I don't have to read these threads, or take anything personally, it's just tiresome. The way some people talk you would almost think that there aren't scads of people out there using plugins every day making great sounding music, that's the thing that gets me. It's just one of those topics I guess, analog vs digital, whatever. Speaking of race cars, how about a tyre spinning out in the mud? That's what reading this crap feels like to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 12:32:48 GMT -6
It's just this tired forum stuff that gets to me, people looking across the fence, saying oh plugins are terrible, making excuses for professionals using plugins, etc. I know I don't have to read these threads, or take anything personally, it's just tiresome. The way some people talk you would almost think that there aren't scads of people out there using plugins every day making great sounding music, that's the thing that gets me. That's fine and dandy but back in 2005 - 2010 even I wouldn't have suggested plugins as a viable alternative despite their inherent convenience factor. That wasn't long ago, a small blip in the audio timeline and whilst the rapid evolution of plugs is mighty impressive I did feel like an alpha tester constantly chasing the next best thing. A costly venture for sure and in some cases it was cheaper just to buy the real thing.. Sure, today some plugins are on par or at least knocking at the door. Some have even exceeded their HW counterparts, but not all of them despite the marketing! It's not unfathomable or a revelation to me that some have clung to their HW roots, there's reasons for it. On the flip side some of this seems to be an ongoing stigma, sorta like Hyundai / Kia who in the present aren't cheap or rubbish despite their detractors. What used to irk me about ITB / plugs was the constant insistence that one mixes completely differently without any clue or relatable information about the process.. Turns out the differences were small, it's just about adding junk back into a very technically clean medium. The benefit was though you got to control how much junk goes back in, a better situation to be in than fighting with noise. |
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Post by Guitar on Nov 20, 2021 13:05:05 GMT -6
@soriantis , I have had hybrid setups at a few times in my "career" too. So I agree with you, that 100% ITB style mixing is sui generis, "its own thing," requires its own special approach. Vs a hardware mix, which I dare to say, might be a little bit more straightforward. I remember the time frame you're talking about! I remember when plugins suddenly "got good," a few years back.
On the very topic of the thread, yes I used to be hybrid, and have moved 100% ITB. And I am 100% happy. Someday, on a lark, and with DIY funding, I would like to explode back out into hybrid again, just to do the thing. I think it might be fun to build a Serpent SB4000, stereo 3A, stereo 2A, hairball 1176, AML pultec, some CAPI EQ's, Sontec style EQ, and so on. But you see how this will require thousands of dollars and dozens of hours of bench time. I have the circuit boards for a few of these already, sitting in wait.
I'd like to build one of those fancy "mastering desk" producer desks too. I think it would be hard not to feel like a real hardcore producer if I had all this gear I just mentioned, in an ergonomic setup. My current setup is efficient and I'm cranking out material. But it's always fun to throw the whole thing into the blender. Once every few years, or so.
But in the mean time, I'm super excited about my laptop rig with RME interface, MOTU conversion, my Wolfbox style DI's, and etc. The complete opposite. This little mobile rig. I've been doing work on it, and it feels great! It sits on the front edge of my desk of the main big-rig setup.
I really don't need a lot.... unless I'm tracking drums.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 21, 2021 2:10:26 GMT -6
On the very topic of the thread, yes I used to be hybrid, and have moved 100% ITB. And I am 100% happy. Someday, on a lark, and with DIY funding, I would like to explode back out into hybrid again, just to do the thing. I think it might be fun to build a Serpent SB4000, stereo 3A, stereo 2A, hairball 1176, AML pultec, some CAPI EQ's, Sontec style EQ, and so on. But you see how this will require thousands of dollars and dozens of hours of bench time. I have the circuit boards for a few of these already, sitting in wait. I'd like to build one of those fancy "mastering desk" producer desks too. I think it would be hard not to feel like a real hardcore producer if I had all this gear I just mentioned, in an ergonomic setup. My current setup is efficient and I'm cranking out material. But it's always fun to throw the whole thing into the blender. Once every few years, or so. I'm not trying to play the psychology card here but "feeling like a pro producer" seems like a form of diluted paranoia. But it's not like I haven't been afflicted by it and hindsight is an ass. For example I've been extolling the virtues of the ISK 2B, someone said I should get a "better" mic but do you know what the ISK replaced? A Tele ELA M251E and the funny thing is in part I bought that mic due to comments like that. Nowadays I just giggle at the whole bias without context thing. Anyway I'm doing the opposite as in downsizing heavily, partially because the house renovations are bleeding me dry but also because I don't need nor want a hybrid setup and it's surprising what you'll keep in a crunch. My Shelford's, 2A's and 6176's will stay with me forever.. I personally can't do without some decent tracking HW, however I'm selling off the rest of my Neumann's (87AI / 89 / M149), Nu-Mu, Toobcore and external effects units but I'll keep my Schoeps MK4's / ISK's.. I might grab the odd piece from time to time but I'm done, I have no need to upgrade / change or add anything really and probably never will. My setup will never be a barrier to quality, I will though.. The only difference nowadays is I don't question it .. Unfortunately it makes discussions on a pro audio forum a bit dry though.. I see a future on pro forums talking about the core again. The music and sculpting the mix maybe even sending each other ch strip settings. Sharing presets etc. Over the time I have so many guitar amp sim presets... why not trading to see other AEs presets. Helps everybody and brings some fun... |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2021 3:17:14 GMT -6
I'm not trying to play the psychology card here but "feeling like a pro producer" seems like a form of diluted paranoia. But it's not like I haven't been afflicted by it and hindsight is an ass. For example I've been extolling the virtues of the ISK 2B, someone said I should get a "better" mic but do you know what the ISK replaced? A Tele ELA M251E and the funny thing is in part I bought that mic due to comments like that. Nowadays I just giggle at the whole bias without context thing. Anyway I'm doing the opposite as in downsizing heavily, partially because the house renovations are bleeding me dry but also because I don't need nor want a hybrid setup and it's surprising what you'll keep in a crunch. My Shelford's, 2A's and 6176's will stay with me forever.. I personally can't do without some decent tracking HW, however I'm selling off the rest of my Neumann's (87AI / 89 / M149), Nu-Mu, Toobcore and external effects units but I'll keep my Schoeps MK4's / ISK's.. I might grab the odd piece from time to time but I'm done, I have no need to upgrade / change or add anything really and probably never will. My setup will never be a barrier to quality, I will though.. The only difference nowadays is I don't question it .. Unfortunately it makes discussions on a pro audio forum a bit dry though.. I see a future on pro forums talking about the core again. The music and sculpting the mix maybe even sending each other ch strip settings. Sharing presets etc. Over the time I have so many guitar amp sim presets... why not trading to see other AEs presets. Helps everybody and brings some fun... That actually sounds really fun. I'd love to see some of that stuff. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2021 5:23:53 GMT -6
I see a future on pro forums talking about the core again. The music and sculpting the mix maybe even sending each other ch strip settings. Sharing presets etc. Over the time I have so many guitar amp sim presets... why not trading to see other AEs presets. Helps everybody and brings some fun... A pro audio forum centred around professional audio (not equipment)? That'll be the day .. |
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Post by Guitar on Nov 21, 2021 9:02:26 GMT -6
@soriantis no paranoia here! But sure, probably some Me-Too-ism. As much as I tell myself I am an iconoclast and forge my own path with music and gear... when I see someone with a mastering desk and high end rack gear in the sweet spot, I do feel a very small amount of "gear-envy."
I think I've done fairly well so far. I've actually met people with "the racks" and etc, the $2,000 monitors, that literally don't know how to record! Clipping digital inputs and etc. That's the far end of the pendulum that's not good to be on.
I've put in 10's of thousands of hours and know exactly what I want to hear. My stuff is not "snobby" I can't exactly "show off" with pictures of my rig. Maybe people would appreciate the organization of it, how functional it is? Streamlined, effective.
So I think I do better than most about me-too-ism. But when I see those mastering style producer desks.... LOL!...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2021 9:52:35 GMT -6
@soriantis no paranoia here! But sure, probably some Me-Too-ism. As much as I tell myself I am an iconoclast and forge my own path with music and gear... when I see someone with a mastering desk and high end rack gear in the sweet spot, I do feel a very small amount of "gear-envy." So I think I do better than most about me-too-ism. But when I see those mastering style producer desks.... LOL!... Whilst our back and forth discussion is cool I'm also trying to portray this topic in a general sense. Guessing the root cause individually was always bound to be the equivalent of meandering around in the dark.. Still the end result is the same whether it be envy, insecurity, peer proficiency etc. etc. Especially when one is starting out and they've tried all the online tutorials to no avail, then they point directly at what they're using. There's a lot of "mystery" surrounding what the iconic engineers actually use and pro audio forums can be a bit disconcerting when all of us are going on about $5K compressors or interfaces making X amount of difference. I selected specific pieces for flavour and entertained the magical unicorn search to find "my" sound, not because I necessarily need them. Plugs and some comps like the RNLA and a DBX560 at the front end would probably do the job (in 2021 at least).. Remember the hilarity that ensued on GS when someone did an Art tube pre vs. Great River thread and most of them preferred the Art? I've used one, they ain't half bad. Anyway, I think this discussion is made for a long chat in the studio with a couple of cold one's.. It's quite in depth and like anything in audio there's no one size fits all approach. |
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Post by Guitar on Nov 21, 2021 10:10:58 GMT -6
@soriantis, excellent points. What the blue collar working stiff audio people do, they don't talk about, they just do it. There was someone on GS just mentioning that a lot of people like this use cheaper gear!! Not all, but many. There's a guy here in town that has for years been using a Digi 003, in 2021. He's a jobber, it's his career! He's got great mics, treated room, and etc, but wow! New records coming out every week, sounding good. And then there's people playing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star through $10,000 ATC with Buchla modular rigs, on the far opposite end of the spectrum, dumping tunes to SoundCloud. You can see why it's hard to see where any one person is coming from when anonymously speaking about gear or even recording techniques. I'm with mrholmes how about a return to good-old recording itself? Without the "lets build a bigger penis" gear consumerism! |
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but I couldn't agree more in a lot of instances. A friend of mine who lives pretty close is a talented yet lesser known engineer who makes very nice sounding hi-fi modern tracks, his approach to things is exactly like what Svart stated, lots of boosting, distortion, limiting, parallel or L/R manipulation and whilst the individual tracks sound a bit weird in the context of a mix my word.. I'll just say that his equipment isn't technically anywhere near on my level and whenever I show off the next shiny piece his first question is always, will it get me to my end goal faster?