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Post by thehightenor on Sept 28, 2021 13:27:14 GMT -6
Even with a large hybrid setup, there are a couple ways to virtually "instant recall" a large amount of hardware. One is to print the tracks when you finish. The other (the one I normally choose as I'm working fast) is to use your outboard in it's sweet spot - and don't touch controls. This seems kind is silly, but it works. And it's instant. If I need to EQ a vocal a bit brighter (or whatever) than the hardware is accomplishing - I'll do it on a plugin. If I need more or less compression - I'll trim into the compressor via a trim plugin. Etc., etc. It quite literally gets me the best of both worlds with zero recall. Of course, I normally have a few pieces of "wild' gear that gets tweaked and turned - and I do recall notes on those pieces. But it's quick and easy, and I get the benefit of hardware vs software. Great workflow ideas Dr. I like this idea you have of a hardware compressor just sat there doing it's thing - ready to be pushed into and then you simply trim the signal at the DAW end like = changing the threshold at the comp. Very cool idea - I like it a lot. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 28, 2021 18:25:12 GMT -6
Even with a large hybrid setup, there are a couple ways to virtually "instant recall" a large amount of hardware. One is to print the tracks when you finish. The other (the one I normally choose as I'm working fast) is to use your outboard in it's sweet spot - and don't touch controls. This seems kind is silly, but it works. And it's instant. If I need to EQ a vocal a bit brighter (or whatever) than the hardware is accomplishing - I'll do it on a plugin. If I need more or less compression - I'll trim into the compressor via a trim plugin. Etc., etc. It quite literally gets me the best of both worlds with zero recall. Of course, I normally have a few pieces of "wild' gear that gets tweaked and turned - and I do recall notes on those pieces. But it's quick and easy, and I get the benefit of hardware vs software. Great workflow ideas Dr. I like this idea you have of a hardware compressor just sat there doing it's thing - ready to be pushed into and then you simply trim the signal at the DAW end like = changing the threshold at the comp. Very cool idea - I like it a lot. Yup. That's it exactly. In practice, this works very well for me. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Sept 29, 2021 5:43:18 GMT -6
Great workflow ideas Dr. I like this idea you have of a hardware compressor just sat there doing it's thing - ready to be pushed into and then you simply trim the signal at the DAW end like = changing the threshold at the comp. Very cool idea - I like it a lot. Yup. That's it exactly. In practice, this works very well for me. Yup. It’s like throwing a plug-in on there! Just static settings. Well that’s why I bought 2 1176s 😎 It’s the costly option to be 1 setting per analog piece but it’s the best of both worlds |
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Post by jmoose on Sept 29, 2021 14:11:03 GMT -6
Very good points moose under those circumstances I see where you are coming from My situation is quite different, hence my different practices. Dealing with multiple clients in this rapid way definitely makes analog tough... Rapid changeovers don't make analog tough... they make it impossible. But that's the world of a for-hire mixer. And some people, especially rock stars & labels fail to plan ahead and want stuff yesterday. Personally I always ask about hard deadlines and try to schedule & accommodate but even asking, I don't always get a solid answer or things get moved. And that's the whole ball right there. Accommodating artists and aligning expectations. Shit. One of the guys last December who was yelling the loudest? Because the artist was yelling at him? EP never got released. Never found out why either. I actually prefer mixing with all the outboard gear and find its much faster and creatively freeing, but only if there's enough time to dig into mixing the entire project in one shot. Where it becomes impossible is when I'm getting a song or two here & there. That automatically puts a project in "the box" zone vs being able to blow it all out. Realistically, using a DAW as the foundation recall isn't a big deal and I can get to at least 95% even months later. Back in the day, as an assistant engineer part of the gig was documenting a 56 channel desk... every single knob & switch... then all the outboard... And even FX boxes? Menu dive into the 480... PCM70... SPX etc and write down all the settings because presets would get pulled & tweaked. In the old days there was a folder as thick as a phone book for each song. Now? Usually 2, maybe 3 pages for each song to jot down anything happening in the analog domain. But make no mistake even though its not a big deal to take notes and I can reset the mix in an hour... patchbays & all... that's a total drag when someone says... Hey Moose... we sent you the wrong vocal tracks. Can you just fly these in and run another print? In the context of 5 or 12 songs with proper scheduling blah blah flying those new tracks is nothing. But when someone doesn't have their shit together? And I'm working on one or two songs at a time... very randomly?? No analog for you! |
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 29, 2021 14:33:47 GMT -6
I am typically juggling a half-dozen projects at a time, at least, with 32ch of hardware (most of which gets printed back into PT), and the usual workload of revisions (sigh...) and the recall thing isn't that much of a hassle, TBH. The gear that sucks to recall is usually used on channels and committed back into the session, so recall is a non-issue there. And the buss stuff that I cannot print is mostly stepped, and much of it lives on specific settings that don't get tweaked much. The minimal hassle of recall is far outweighed by the sonic benefit, and, more importantly, the inspirational benefit (because juggling that many mixes can at times be soul-draining, and plugins do little to inspire).
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Sept 29, 2021 21:56:16 GMT -6
Yup. It’s like throwing a plug-in on there! Just static settings. Well that’s why I bought 2 1176s 😎 It’s the costly option to be 1 setting per analog piece but it’s the best of both worlds Also inline with what the great mixers say about hardware. They're not messing around with much at all. Set and forget. When it's in the sweet spot, done. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 30, 2021 10:36:37 GMT -6
My outboard tends to get re-cal'd per project or after every project. Set back to same settings as before - but occasionally I end up bumping or tweaking something and forget, or there are pieces that just need to be recal'd. Simple then. Open session - instant recall with hardware. I'm not saying this will work for everyone, but it works spectacularly for me.
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Post by chessparov on Sept 30, 2021 12:21:07 GMT -6
That does it! I'm breaking out the heavy artillery... My Mackie Onyx mixer. Hear the iron!  Chris |
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Post by jmoose on Sept 30, 2021 14:17:02 GMT -6
I am typically juggling a half-dozen projects at a time, at least, with 32ch of hardware (most of which gets printed back into PT), and the usual workload of revisions (sigh...) and the recall thing isn't that much of a hassle, TBH. The gear that sucks to recall is usually used on channels and committed back into the session, so recall is a non-issue there. And the buss stuff that I cannot print is mostly stepped, and much of it lives on specific settings that don't get tweaked much. The minimal hassle of recall is far outweighed by the sonic benefit, and, more importantly, the inspirational benefit (because juggling that many mixes can at times be soul-draining, and plugins do little to inspire). For the most part I moved away from the doing the print back thing. At least on 'common' stuff like a drum or backing vocal buss... found I actually spent way more time doing that then simply documenting & reset. One exception are things where there's a bit of "sound design" involved and there's zero chance of getting the sound back. Things like re-amping and using guitar pedals... If I send vocals & drums out to an Electro Harmonix memory man and/or electric mistress? That stuff always gets printed. Other exception, and sometimes I'll do this with ITB mixes... making comp tracks when they weren't delivered that way. Situations where say, the lead vocal instead of getting punched or comp'd down to a single track arrives spread across 5-7 tracks. Sometimes with whack playlist/automation so it plays through... Rather then fight uphill I'll take that stuff and bang it out through some tubes & transformers and lay that back. Do that as much for tone as for the simplicity of being able to work with the vocal or whatever from a single source vs being split into a zillion parts. I have a fairly unique way of using outboard and a desk so that recall isn't an issue... kinda grokked it from a friend and adapted what he was doing to my own needs. Makes all the "don't touch the knobs" and calibration stuff irrelevant. Grab the knobs push buttons! Hail Satan it doesn't matter. But again it all comes down to aligning and managing expectations. Personally I wish some people weren't hung up on instant recall and tiny 1dB changes that really just don't matter once its mastered and has another 7-10dB of limiting piled on. But it is what it is... My favorite projects are the ones where I can put on the cowboy hat and paint myself into a corner. Got one in the cue where once overdubs wrap I'm probably taking it to Big Blue and smashing it through 40 channels of 5088... use the tape echos and all the rad stuff... print to the ATR 102 and take fuck all for recall notes. Zero. Zilch. Do something cool. Go up north and make art. That was sorta the whole point originally right? Making art? Not fast food cheeseburgers... But a lotta people like fast food and say hold the tomatoes. That's a paying crowd too and the chef has to accommodate. Either that or I find something entirely different for my life to be about... |
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Post by drsax on Sept 30, 2021 15:44:15 GMT -6
I am typically juggling a half-dozen projects at a time, at least, with 32ch of hardware (most of which gets printed back into PT), and the usual workload of revisions (sigh...) and the recall thing isn't that much of a hassle, TBH. The gear that sucks to recall is usually used on channels and committed back into the session, so recall is a non-issue there. And the buss stuff that I cannot print is mostly stepped, and much of it lives on specific settings that don't get tweaked much. The minimal hassle of recall is far outweighed by the sonic benefit, and, more importantly, the inspirational benefit (because juggling that many mixes can at times be soul-draining, and plugins do little to inspire). Same here |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 30, 2021 20:24:07 GMT -6
Murphy always seems to make sure “need it yesterday” happens on 2-3 projects at the same time, and while you’re buried in something else, probably a tracking session that’s using all the gear you’d need to recall.
Last week I was preset as much as possible for 2 different tracking sessions and 2 different mix sessions, with the mix sessions ping ponging back and forth in between the tracking. There’s always things that need to be used differently on each, so there’s multiple recalls, even keeping the mixes ITB as much as possible. And yesterday, man, yesterday!
Everything here is for-hire.
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 30, 2021 20:44:44 GMT -6
I am typically juggling a half-dozen projects at a time, at least, with 32ch of hardware (most of which gets printed back into PT), and the usual workload of revisions (sigh...) and the recall thing isn't that much of a hassle, TBH. The gear that sucks to recall is usually used on channels and committed back into the session, so recall is a non-issue there. And the buss stuff that I cannot print is mostly stepped, and much of it lives on specific settings that don't get tweaked much. The minimal hassle of recall is far outweighed by the sonic benefit, and, more importantly, the inspirational benefit (because juggling that many mixes can at times be soul-draining, and plugins do little to inspire). For the most part I moved away from the doing the print back thing. At least on 'common' stuff like a drum or backing vocal buss... found I actually spent way more time doing that then simply documenting & reset. One exception are things where there's a bit of "sound design" involved and there's zero chance of getting the sound back. Things like re-amping and using guitar pedals... If I send vocals & drums out to an Electro Harmonix memory man and/or electric mistress? That stuff always gets printed. Other exception, and sometimes I'll do this with ITB mixes... making comp tracks when they weren't delivered that way. Situations where say, the lead vocal instead of getting punched or comp'd down to a single track arrives spread across 5-7 tracks. Sometimes with whack playlist/automation so it plays through... Rather then fight uphill I'll take that stuff and bang it out through some tubes & transformers and lay that back. Do that as much for tone as for the simplicity of being able to work with the vocal or whatever from a single source vs being split into a zillion parts. I have a fairly unique way of using outboard and a desk so that recall isn't an issue... kinda grokked it from a friend and adapted what he was doing to my own needs. Makes all the "don't touch the knobs" and calibration stuff irrelevant. Grab the knobs push buttons! Hail Satan it doesn't matter. But again it all comes down to aligning and managing expectations. Personally I wish some people weren't hung up on instant recall and tiny 1dB changes that really just don't matter once its mastered and has another 7-10dB of limiting piled on. But it is what it is... My favorite projects are the ones where I can put on the cowboy hat and paint myself into a corner. Got one in the cue where once overdubs wrap I'm probably taking it to Big Blue and smashing it through 40 channels of 5088... use the tape echos and all the rad stuff... print to the ATR 102 and take fuck all for recall notes. Zero. Zilch. Do something cool. Go up north and make art. That was sorta the whole point originally right? Making art? Not fast food cheeseburgers... But a lotta people like fast food and say hold the tomatoes. That's a paying crowd too and the chef has to accommodate. Either that or I find something entirely different for my life to be about... I got a LOT more hybrid when pt added the commit feature. Haha. Dumping a dozen or more channels of analog back into pt simultaneously without whacky aux routing kungfu was the game changer for me. |
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Post by bossanova on Nov 8, 2021 15:15:13 GMT -6
I was thinking of making a separate thread for this but it seems like it would fit the larger focus of this one:
In late 2021, and for those who *aren’t* using tape, what are y’all doing to intentionally round off/warm up the digital edges and weirdness during *tracking*? Especially on acoustic and direct instruments (which covers most things, I know) and assuming that everything after that initial AD conversion is going to remain ITB.
For me, I have all the plugs I’ll probably ever need, but there’s only so much they can do once that squeaky clean mic to interface signal is etched into the WAV file.
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Post by Mister Chase on Nov 8, 2021 15:19:17 GMT -6
I was thinking of making a separate thread for this but it seems like it would fit the larger focus of this one: In late 2021, and for those who *aren’t* using tape, what are y’all doing to round off/warm up the digital edges and weirdness during *tracking*? Especially on acoustic and direct instruments, and assuming that everything after that initial AD conversion is going to remain ITB. Well, sometimes I can do that with my Unison plus if I am using my UA apollo x8p.
But if I am using my analog gear and Lynx Aurora (n), I think I can get the results I desire with mic choice, preamp choice, some EQ and placement etc. I don't really see why it's not possible to get results you want up front going to digital... just me though.
But there are great boxes out there that are meant as kind of "warmers" in the analog world you can track through if the things above don't work for you. The RND 542 tape box comes to mind.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 8, 2021 15:21:02 GMT -6
I was thinking of making a separate thread for this but it seems like it would fit the larger focus of this one: In late 2021, and for those who *aren’t* using tape, what are y’all doing to round off/warm up the digital edges and weirdness during *tracking*? Especially on acoustic and direct instruments (which covers most things, I know) and assuming that everything after that initial AD conversion is going to remain ITB. Everything gets a pass through the Silver Bullet whether directly or on the mix bus. I’m also more liberal with LPF than some. If everything is sharp then nothing is, it’s ok to be aggressive decrisping some parts. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 8, 2021 15:24:49 GMT -6
I was thinking of making a separate thread for this but it seems like it would fit the larger focus of this one: In late 2021, and for those who *aren’t* using tape, what are y’all doing to round off/warm up the digital edges and weirdness during *tracking*? Especially on acoustic and direct instruments, and assuming that everything after that initial AD conversion is going to remain ITB. Well, sometimes I can do that with my Unison plus if I am using my UA apollo x8p.
But if I am using my analog gear and Lynx Aurora (n), I think I can get the results I desire with mic choice, preamp choice, some EQ and placement etc. I don't really see why it's not possible to get results you want up front going to digital... just me though.
But there are great boxes out there that are meant as kind of "warmers" in the analog world you can track through if the things above don't work for you. The RND 542 tape box comes to mind.
Mic choice, +1 on that. I think I use dynamics way more than a lot of people. I’m of the camp that says that condenser mics were often optimized in an era where we were trying to squeeze high-end fidelity out of tape. No longer the issue. A lot of the producers and engineers that I like around here use dynamic mics shape the color they want. I know at least three studios where they default to dynamics or ribbons on OH, for example, and only bring out an LDC if it’s needed for a style choice. Pretty much the opposite of what you see in most forums. |
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Post by bossanova on Nov 8, 2021 15:33:08 GMT -6
I was thinking of making a separate thread for this but it seems like it would fit the larger focus of this one: In late 2021, and for those who *aren’t* using tape, what are y’all doing to round off/warm up the digital edges and weirdness during *tracking*? Especially on acoustic and direct instruments, and assuming that everything after that initial AD conversion is going to remain ITB. Well, sometimes I can do that with my Unison plus if I am using my UA apollo x8p.
But if I am using my analog gear and Lynx Aurora (n), I think I can get the results I desire with mic choice, preamp choice, some EQ and placement etc. I don't really see why it's not possible to get results you want up front going to digital... just me though.
But there are great boxes out there that are meant as kind of "warmers" in the analog world you can track through if the things above don't work for you. The RND 542 tape box comes to mind.
It’s by no means the only reason, but part of it is that I’m on what would have once been considered the high-functioning autism spectrum and certain aspects of sound really stick out to me in ways that most others might not even notice or have strong feelings about. I was also a late-era analog kid (started on a PortaStudio and everything) and digital has never sounded “right” in direct form. I’ve looked at solutions like the RND box and I’m always weighing if it’s worth the money for the relative improvement. Honest to god, I have a Fisher Price tape recorder that still sounds like magic to me but is completely impractical for anything other than single take Lo-LoFi |
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Post by Guitar on Nov 8, 2021 15:41:18 GMT -6
I was thinking of making a separate thread for this but it seems like it would fit the larger focus of this one: In late 2021, and for those who *aren’t* using tape, what are y’all doing to intentionally round off/warm up the digital edges and weirdness during *tracking*? Especially on acoustic and direct instruments (which covers most things, I know) and assuming that everything after that initial AD conversion is going to remain ITB. For me, I have all the plugs I’ll probably ever need, but there’s only so much they can do once that squeaky clean mic to interface signal is etched into the WAV file. I use a Wolfbox style DI (that I build and sell) to get a rounded bass and electric guitar DI tone. Dynamic mics on drums, like gravesnumber9 said. And ribbon mics on drums. Vocal microphone is carefully tuned (I built it.) Transformer mic pres for most instruments (CAPI, Five Fish.) Oktava MK 012 and ribbon mics on acoustic guitars (mic choice, in other words) And on drums, I seem to crave a ton of UAD Neve 1073 and/or Empirical Labs Arousor saturation to get the sound I'm after. I also track THROUGH Softube Tape on most channels, which gets printed during record, because I like that sound. Don't be afraid to track through plugins on your input channels if they get you closer to your sound. You don't need an Apollo to do this. I guess I'm pretty far ahead, for what I want to do, when it comes to mix these things together. It takes a while to find your house sound / system but it's a big leg up when you do. |
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Post by gouge on Nov 8, 2021 15:49:14 GMT -6
acustica taupe is killing it for me.
repsonds like tape and sounds real close to tape.
taupe also contains an eq which is one of the best plug eq's ive used.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 8, 2021 16:03:25 GMT -6
Well, sometimes I can do that with my Unison plus if I am using my UA apollo x8p.
But if I am using my analog gear and Lynx Aurora (n), I think I can get the results I desire with mic choice, preamp choice, some EQ and placement etc. I don't really see why it's not possible to get results you want up front going to digital... just me though.
But there are great boxes out there that are meant as kind of "warmers" in the analog world you can track through if the things above don't work for you. The RND 542 tape box comes to mind.
It’s by no means the only reason, but part of it is that I’m on what would have once been considered the high-functioning autism spectrum and certain aspects of sound really stick out to me in ways that most others might not even notice or have strong feelings about. I was also a late-era analog kid (started on a PortaStudio and everything) and digital has never sounded “right” in direct form. I’ve looked at solutions like the RND box and I’m always weighing if it’s worth the money for the relative improvement. Honest to god, I have a Fisher Price tape recorder that still sounds like magic to me but is completely impractical for anything other than single take Lo-LoFi Interesting... I'm also late era analog (got the bug when I got a Portastudio for Christmas one year). I also have congenital reverse slope hearing loss so I was born with less sensitivity to low sounds but greater sensitivity to higher frequencies. You'd probably like my mixes! |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 8, 2021 18:48:36 GMT -6
The biggest thing I hear analog doing that I haven’t been able to do nearly as well with digital is making dry flat sounds come alive, while tapering off the resonant low end in a musical way. Interesting I had this problem in polishing a dry mix last week. Sounded good but was not as open as my comparison mixes from the 70s …. Paul Third in YT showed that some hardware ads more harmonic content into the sides vs. other hardware. I did set up Elysia Saturator in Side mode on an aux strip… Voila the whole mix sounded nice. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Nov 8, 2021 21:18:30 GMT -6
The biggest thing I hear analog doing that I haven’t been able to do nearly as well with digital is making dry flat sounds come alive, while tapering off the resonant low end in a musical way. Interesting I had this problem in polishing a dry mix last week. Sounded good but was not as open as my comparison mixes from the 70s …. Paul Third in YT showed that some hardware ads more harmonic content into the sides vs. other hardware. I did set up Elysia Saturator in Side mode on an aux strip… Voila the whole mix sounded nice. Interesting I may try that plug-in. Good sweetening saturation I find indispensable, I haven’t seemed to find too many that don’t make me feel it sounds a bit harsh in the digital domain, but I’m looking. I find boosting just isn’t the ticket sometimes and thickening the high-mids is really what I’m after a lot of the time. VSM 3 seems to add some nice harmonic content that when put at 10% or under sounds good and not too harsh |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 9, 2021 9:54:46 GMT -6
Interesting I had this problem in polishing a dry mix last week. Sounded good but was not as open as my comparison mixes from the 70s …. Paul Third in YT showed that some hardware ads more harmonic content into the sides vs. other hardware. I did set up Elysia Saturator in Side mode on an aux strip… Voila the whole mix sounded nice. Interesting I may try that plug-in. Good sweetening saturation I find indispensable, I haven’t seemed to find too many that don’t make me feel it sounds a bit harsh in the digital domain, but I’m looking. I find boosting just isn’t the ticket sometimes and thickening the high-mids is really what I’m after a lot of the time. VSM 3 seems to add some nice harmonic content that when put at 10% or under sounds good and not too harsh
I have some analogue saturators which can sound pretty harsh IMO - so I roll off HF before it - done.... same ITB.
For me the favorites ITB are.
Klaghelm SDRR - Can sound pretty much as my SPL Saturator and I bet it's based on it. Kelvin is just superb when it comes to subtle tube sounds. Elysia Karacter is more modern but in subtle stages fine, there was no difference compared to the hardware.
I hope to have my M1 soon the freebie G Sat Plus sounded a lot better on the mix bus than the SSL Fusion Hardware... it also uses side harmonics. It was one of those who let your mouth stay open for a while, and no we do not folded ourselves, we level matched as good as it gets and used BLIND AB software. Three people prefer the plug in.
That is how bad digital is today. IMO the main problem is that our brain is not made for interfacing with screens. I try to set space by constant breaks for this issue, and it helps.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 9, 2021 10:10:51 GMT -6
Great post, mrholmeslately I've been enjoying the vibe of Black Rooster Audio VPRE-73HE, and the Fuse VPRE-2C as well as Arousor, UAD 1073, and I pulled out UAD Studer tape recently to make some pokey guitars sit down. I tried that KIT plugins Burier thing (it was free) and it just sounded like bad generic clipping. |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 9, 2021 10:57:13 GMT -6
Great post, mrholmes lately I've been enjoying the vibe of Black Rooster Audio VPRE-73HE, and the Fuse VPRE-2C as well as Arousor, UAD 1073, and I pulled out UAD Studer tape recently to make some pokey guitars sit down. I tried that KIT plugins Burier thing (it was free) and it just sounded like bad generic clipping.
Try the Kevin for Shaping and E Base sound. You can't do it better in the analog domain. The problem is IMO to set it like you like and to make a decision and to move on. Exactly the same as with real gear.
The cool thing is I can correct things with ease - a few days off help to be more objective again.
ITB is a god send, producing my own songs.
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