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Post by NoTomorrow on Jun 23, 2021 23:25:35 GMT -6
I was recently considering selling either my 1979 Neumann KM84 or my Soyuz Su-013fet and putting the cash towards some other gear. So I decided to do a comparison before pulling the trigger. All tracks recorded through VP28 2520/1731 > Apollo X8 - no EQ or Comp outboard or ITB. (24/44.1) Gear: L = Larrivee D-03r (rosewood) C = Mid Missouri Mandolin M4 R = Gibson J45AG (mahogany) I put the mics on opposite ends of a straightened out XY bar so they were 180 degrees across from each other, perpendicular to the floor. I would record the Larrivee with the KM84 and then rotate the bar 180 degrees so that the Soyuz was in the exact same spot and then proceed to record that mic. Rinse, repeat. I'll attach a pic in case that didn't make sense. There are 3 links: (1)all KM84 (2) all Soyuz (3) alternating every 2 bars with the KM84 being the first clip and the Soyuz being the last clip Dropbox:km84 >> www.dropbox.com/s/4ca0g8pal6ufhw2/1aud-SDC-KM84-3trakMix.wav?dl=0 soyuz >> www.dropbox.com/s/pbzo7rqldgzdtze/1aud-SDC-Soyuz-SU013fet-3trakMix.wav?dl=0altern >> www.dropbox.com/s/xzbk8nn0epn9sar/1aud-SDCs-KM84-SU013fet-Alternating.wav?dl=0 |
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Post by NoTomorrow on Jun 23, 2021 23:26:54 GMT -6
pic  |
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Post by allbuttonmode on Jun 24, 2021 2:35:49 GMT -6
Thanks for the comparison. Which one did you end up keeping?
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Post by timcampbell on Jun 24, 2021 4:29:11 GMT -6
Well recently the price of KM84's seems to have doubled but I don't know of anyone buying at those prices. The Soyuz sounds great but the retail value is close to what a KM84 was selling for a few months ago and the resale value of the 013 drops over time which might tempt me to look around for a used one. The Neumann only continues to increase in value.
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 24, 2021 5:33:36 GMT -6
Would be interesting to hear a comparison with the MK012 as well….
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Post by Ward on Jun 24, 2021 7:12:03 GMT -6
Thanks for this!
If I didn't have KM84s or was unable to find/buy them, Soyuz FET13s would be at the top of my list
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Post by keymod on Jun 24, 2021 7:30:42 GMT -6
Has anyone built the 84 clone kit from Mic Parts?
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Post by Quint on Jun 24, 2021 7:55:14 GMT -6
I'm kind of holding out hope for the Serrano 84 clone.
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Post by mcirish on Jun 24, 2021 8:18:00 GMT -6
Has anyone built the 84 clone kit from Mic Parts? I have the banzai km84 kit. I have not had time to put it together yet. I have access to a couple km84's so I will test once I build them. On another note, the Oktava MK012 was mentioned. I modified my MC012 mics (2) with new caps and resistors. I did do comparisons with a km84 side by side on mandolin and guitar. I typically mic from about 8" off the neck/body joint of the guitar and about 8" out from the lower F hole on the mandolin. The mics were so close that it was pretty near impossible to hear a difference. Dr Bill has done similar tests in the past as well. For close micing an acoustic instrument, the MC (MK)012 is the closest to a KM84 that I have ever heard. If you pull the mics back, I think the difference would become more apparent. I know many people like to bash the Oktava and praise the Neumann. I'm not one of them. My pair of MC012 get used all the time on acoustic guitar and mandolin. That's where they shine. Maybe someday I will have the time to dig out those test sessions where I recorded the MC012 and KM84. Then I can upload them. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 24, 2021 8:50:38 GMT -6
Well recently the price of KM84's seems to have doubled but I don't know of anyone buying at those prices. The Soyuz sounds great but the retail value is close to what a KM84 was selling for a few months ago and the resale value of the 013 drops over time which might tempt me to look around for a used one. The Neumann only continues to increase in value. I thought the 13 was like $600 |
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Post by timcampbell on Jun 24, 2021 11:09:42 GMT -6
John you are right when I look at US prices. In Denmark it's more than 800.
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Post by ragan on Jun 24, 2021 11:35:55 GMT -6
KM84 by a mile for me. Nice comparison, thanks for posting.
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Post by drumsound on Jun 24, 2021 12:46:35 GMT -6
Thanks, NoTomorrow. These sound really good. I'm going to be the oddball. I liked the KM84 better on mandolin, and the Soyuz better on the guitars. |
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Post by NoTomorrow on Jun 24, 2021 14:31:50 GMT -6
Thanks for the comparison. Which one did you end up keeping? Well hell, I might keep them both!...haven't decided yet. These days that's why I do tests before I sell anything... because in the past I've sold stuff, then listened to old recordings and then had to repurchase. Both mics have good qualities but if I sell one it's going to have to be the Soyuz. The main differences I hear are in the low end and the high mids. The Soyuz has much more bottom end extension and is scooped in the 2k-5k range compared to the km84. Of course that can be desirable sometimes. The KM84 comes across as flatter, more honest 20hz-20khz - whereas the Soyuz, which sounds good and handles transients well, is a more modern and stylized sound. It's also 'dryer' in the sense that the polar pattern seems to be much tighter = less room sound. I guess the difference in the low end is expected since the Soyuz is really a 'medium' diaphragm condenser. It has a 25mm capsule whereas the KM84 is 20mm. |
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Post by NoTomorrow on Jun 24, 2021 14:39:04 GMT -6
Thanks, NoTomorrow . These sound really good. I'm going to be the oddball. I liked the KM84 better on mandolin, and the Soyuz better on the guitars. Yea, I could see taking that approach. The Soyuz just doesn't pick up the 3k 'ting' of the mandolin very well. It kinda buries it. |
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Post by lando on Jun 24, 2021 14:39:42 GMT -6
The 84 wins this one. The Soyuz sounds a bit muffled and not so detailed in comparison, at least to my ears. Wish it was the other way around.
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Post by drumsound on Jun 25, 2021 0:28:35 GMT -6
Thanks, NoTomorrow . These sound really good. I'm going to be the oddball. I liked the KM84 better on mandolin, and the Soyuz better on the guitars. Yea, I could see taking that approach. The Soyuz just doesn't pick up the 3k 'ting' of the mandolin very well. It kinda buries it. Which is kind of the most important part of the mandolin. |
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Post by rowmat on Jun 25, 2021 2:16:02 GMT -6
The two key factors that make a KM84 such a great mic are its stellar midrange which is not scooped out like so many other mics and its uncoloured off axis phase response.
So if those things really appeal then you have your answer.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 25, 2021 21:30:48 GMT -6
When you volume match the Soyuz with the KM 84, they get closer, and with a little EQ, they're very close. I love them both. Other than the KM-84, nothing else I've heard touches the 0-13. And at $600, it's one of the best values in pro audio today IMO.
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Post by NoTomorrow on Jun 25, 2021 22:52:55 GMT -6
When you volume match the Soyuz with the KM 84, they get closer, and with a little EQ, they're very close. I love them both. Other than the KM-84, nothing else I've heard touches the 0-13. And at $600, it's one of the best values in pro audio today IMO. I agree that the Soyuz is great for $600. Maybe if Soyuz made a version with smaller diaphragm it would get even closer. Still a very usable tone and I like the way it handles transients in particular. I can see some people preferring the extra lows and slightly scooped mids. KM84s selling in the $1700-2000 range the last couple of years. They just seem to keep going up and up (vintage U87s too). |
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Post by theshea on Jun 26, 2021 1:47:42 GMT -6
both do sound EXCELLENT. the su-013 maybe a bit more meatier, but honestly both recordings do sound superb.
i „only“ own warbler 127 with c-flat capsule, which i am totally happy with. should i ever feel the need to upgrade i would choose su-013 without hesitation as km84 is simply to much money.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jun 26, 2021 5:58:50 GMT -6
Personally, I’m in the KM84 camp. I feel like I hear everything with it. The SU-13 has a more enhancing quality in a good way, but I can see the KM84 being more versatile. I think I could easily find uses for both, it if I could only choose one it would be the KM84.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Jun 26, 2021 6:34:39 GMT -6
My opinion is obviously biased, since I have the Soyuz ones. But after hearing the comparisons, I am very happy I went with them.
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Post by Mister Chase on Jun 26, 2021 15:06:33 GMT -6
Both very nice. In these clips I like that midrange focus of the Neumann. I have a pair of Soyuz 013 FET's and they are really great if you ask me. I'd keep both.
There is a sort of "sweetness" to the sound of the Soyuz that I notice in my Bomblet as well. They do have a quality to them that I like.
Instrument asks "How do I sound?"
Soyuz = sugar coated. Neumann = brutal honesty.
A bit of an exaggeration but its what I feel I hear. The Neumann of course can flatter a source. But its very up front, fast and it's all there.
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Post by robschnapf on Jun 26, 2021 15:35:48 GMT -6
I’ve always felt like the Soyuz were like 84s brother with broader shoulders
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