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Post by littlesicily on May 2, 2014 12:13:43 GMT -6
I had a pair of the Russian MK012 and thought they sounded really good, especially for the price. A pair for $300. I tend to not like very bright mics on acgtr, though. Still I lean towards one LDC 90% of the time. The LDC tends to get too boomy, and the proximity effect is too much as I like putting the mics right up on the guitar. Yes, I tend to get closer to 12th fret with slight angel towards sound hole, then hpf at 50hz-80hz while recording. Dump more lows in mix, but I like the fullness and gentle "smear" of the u67... they eq so nicely (also like an 87). For finger picking or nylon, I do like a SDC (km54) for the detail. Here's an example with same technique with ADK CS-67 before I had the Neumann. No eq in mix. soundcloud.com/sal-oliveri-producer/boys-in-the-morning-clipThis was few years ago and I feel I've been able to improve on this even more.
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Post by svart on May 2, 2014 12:32:37 GMT -6
The LDC tends to get too boomy, and the proximity effect is too much as I like putting the mics right up on the guitar. Yes, I tend to get closer to 12th fret with slight angel towards sound hole, then hpf at 50hz-80hz while recording. Dump more lows in mix, but I like the fullness and gentle "smear" of the u67... they eq so nicely (also like an 87). For finger picking or nylon, I do like a SDC (km54) for the detail. Here's an example with same technique with ADK CS-67 before I had the Neumann. No eq in mix. soundcloud.com/sal-oliveri-producer/boys-in-the-morning-clipThis was few years ago and I feel I've been able to improve on this even more. Sounds good! I do the 12th fret for one mic and the other gets placed on the other side of the picking hand, pointed in towards the bottom end of the fretboard. It has a more bassy sound, but I can raise or lower in the mix to match level. I tend to like the stereo effect it makes like that.
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Post by littlesicily on May 2, 2014 12:35:32 GMT -6
Yes, I tend to get closer to 12th fret with slight angel towards sound hole, then hpf at 50hz-80hz while recording. Dump more lows in mix, but I like the fullness and gentle "smear" of the u67... they eq so nicely (also like an 87). For finger picking or nylon, I do like a SDC (km54) for the detail. Here's an example with same technique with ADK CS-67 before I had the Neumann. No eq in mix. soundcloud.com/sal-oliveri-producer/boys-in-the-morning-clipThis was few years ago and I feel I've been able to improve on this even more. Sounds good! I do the 12th fret for one mic and the other gets placed on the other side of the picking hand, pointed in towards the bottom end of the fretboard. It has a more bassy sound, but I can raise or lower in the mix to match level. I tend to like the stereo effect it makes like that. Yes, that seems like a popular and effective method. I guess I like doing 2 mono parts. Or 1 mono acgtr and another instrument on the other side. Totally a matter of taste and arranging.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 2, 2014 12:41:50 GMT -6
littlesicily sounds like you used Haas on that guitar track? great stuff man.
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Post by littlesicily on May 2, 2014 12:43:28 GMT -6
littlesicily sounds like you used Haas on that guitar track? great stuff man. Haas?
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Post by tonycamphd on May 2, 2014 12:46:14 GMT -6
littlesicily sounds like you used Haas on that guitar track? great stuff man. Haas? Haas effect, i love using it.
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Post by littlesicily on May 2, 2014 12:51:06 GMT -6
Ahh, I'd have to look at the mix session to see what we did (me and Billy Whittington)... there's a bowed acgtr on the right side and then a bunch of ambient things happening. Not sure there's any primary acgtr (left side) being sent to right or not. In any event, thanks for listening!
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2014 13:06:42 GMT -6
Guess I better be nice to my friend with the 84's, it seems like nothing else quite holds up as well. I like a little oomph in the low end on acoustics, but have been guilty of too much proximity way too many times.
The KM84 simply solves the problem, plenty of low end, really, it's there, just no boom. The low end magic is usually what's missing from other SDC attempts to get a similar sound. I wonder why that is. Even Neumann can't get truly close?
Oops, I just noticed we're veering off the topic, maybe I'll start a new thread soon.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 2, 2014 13:22:20 GMT -6
Guess I better be nice to my friend with the 84's, it seems like nothing else quite holds up as well. I like a little oomph in the low end on acoustics, but have been guilty of too much proximity way too many times. The KM84 simply solves the problem, plenty of low end, really, it's there, just no boom. The low end magic is usually what's missing from other SDC attempts to get a similar sound. I wonder why that is. Even Neumann can't get truly close? Oops, I just noticed we're veering off the topic, maybe I'll start a new thread soon. i personally subscribe to the distance=depth rule, and i'm a fan of large diaphragm condensers on acoustics in that regard, the distance solves most boom problems. SDC's are great close up and off axis, but these are 2 different animals IMV Really, all else being equal, i think the single best acoustic guitar mic is a great sounding room.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2014 14:21:06 GMT -6
ahh you had to go and bring the room into it eh Tony? You're so right, I don't even wanna think about it. My room's about as and as bad it gets. I'm near the mailroom, above the garbage collection, and directly above the laundry, and right above the engine room for the elevators and the water pump. Think there's a little 250 Hz bump ;-) you betcha !
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Post by littlesicily on May 2, 2014 14:36:23 GMT -6
personally subscribe to the distance=depth rule, and i'm a fan of large diaphragm condensers on acoustics in that regard, the distance solves most boom problems. I agree.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2014 16:47:16 GMT -6
I've been very happy with the sounds I get using the U17R, and you guys are right, set the distance right, and the boom is gone. It was only after having the K84 that I realized it could be different. The SDC is able to get a little closer before proximity comes into play, so the sound was a little different.
I once bought two Little Blondie SDC condensers based on a few sound files that compared it to a U87 and the Blondie sounded as good or better. When I got them, I was dissatisfied, they didn't touch my LDC for tone quality. At that time I was using the Bock 195. So, I'll happily use my U17 unless the K84 is available, which is now my benchmark.
I wish I had that Telefunken 251 to compare it to the K84. Part of my appreciation for the 84 is likely from the fact that it sounds different than the mic I use most of the time, so who knows, I could love the 251 as much as the 84 if I had one.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 2, 2014 17:55:04 GMT -6
The C-5's were a real surprise to me at how close they were to the vintage 84's we used and I bought them on the spot. This is what led me to my impedance thread. Wondering if that might help the top a little.
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Post by wiz on May 2, 2014 18:13:56 GMT -6
I have owned MK012s but it was over 10 years ago... NT5s, KM84 , KM184, Mojave MA100.
Only the Neumanns, have been plug and play Martin.
I think a lot of KM84s sound different from each other (age, condition etc) and when people compare KM184s to them, its not really apples to apples even though the KM84s share the same capsule.
I read for years, a lot of disparaging comments about the KM184s. I got a set in a horse trade deal, and I gotta tell you, I was really impressed. They are different sounding to my single old KM84, but thats a good thing.
Mine are pretty well dedicated to overheads, they replaced my KM84 U87 that were in that role, and before that I have MA100 and MA200 as overheads. My drum kit stays up mic'd all the time.
The KM184s are the easiest to get a finished mixed drum sound out of. I don't have to do any HPF on the bottom end, Like I have on every other set of OHEAD mics I have put up over that kit in this room. (that kit, This room)
So, one could say they are bottom end shy, I say, this kit, this room, they are perfect.
I find I have mixed a couple of songs, and the toms have sounded (12" and 14") so good, that I haven't needed my close mics on the toms in the final mix, a first here.
I also tried them on the acoustic guitars vs the KM84. So different as to be moot. Both great, both different, again for me a GREAT thing.
Re recording with one mic.
My opinion will be answered by this.... when I cut backing vocals, I don't use the same preamp/mic chain as the lead vocal, especially if its the same singer doing them. I do backing vocal parts (stacking) by setting up a heap of mics in a row.. all running into different preamps, all gain staged correctly, then I do each pass on a different mic/preamp. If I need more I then switch around the preamps each mic is running into.
I think that it matters a great deal to get tiny different sonic pictures of the same voice.
To sum up, I am really happy with the choice of KM184s for overheads here, they also work great on other sources.
I have an absolute love affair with my KM84 and my U87.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by wiz on May 2, 2014 22:35:13 GMT -6
If the 184s are significantly quieter than your 84, the 84 may still have the output pad connected which was how they were sold in the U.S. You can download the manual from the Neumann USA site and it tells how to remove the pad and change the mike from 50 to 200 Ohms. HI Bob thanks for that heads up. My KM84 indeed does have the pad in circuit (its from around 78 I think) I had no idea my mic was 50Ohms.. I will look into it thanks again cheers Wiz Hi Bob I found the manual on the Neumann Website. There is information about how to set the mic from 50 to 150Ohms impedance (they say any set at the factory to 50 ohms have a red dot marked on the mic, mine doesn't) there is nothing in the manual or anywhere I can find online, about pulling the pad out of the circuit though... if you have time and kind find it, would love a link. To pull the mic apart would require a jewellers screwdriver, which I don't have , I will see If I can find a set to borrow. cheers
Wiz
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 3, 2014 9:53:48 GMT -6
If I remember correctly, the screws are reverse thread. The mike can only be 150 Ohms with the pad in. It's two 50 Ohm series resistors with is on the 50 Ohm tap. I think there's a wire you cut but I'm trying to remember from the early '70s. The first time I ran into a Neumann with no output pad was a real "A-Ha" moment for me.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 3, 2014 13:30:35 GMT -6
Bob, can you talk a little more about the difference in sound?
I don't know how my friend's KM84's are set, all I know is he bought out a studio a long time ago., but I'd like to know what to look for.
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Post by wiz on May 3, 2014 15:03:39 GMT -6
If I remember correctly, the screws are reverse thread. The mike can only be 150 Ohms with the pad in. It's two 50 Ohm series resistors with is on the 50 Ohm tap. I think there's a wire you cut but I'm trying to remember from the early '70s. The first time I ran into a Neumann with no output pad was a real "A-Ha" moment for me. thanks Bob will keep hunting... will post back If I can find it. cheers Wiz
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Post by Guitar on Dec 16, 2015 14:45:34 GMT -6
I found this thread on google as a coincidence since the last three mics I have built / am building are a pair of sort of '67's and a '251'. Mine don't sound quite like the originals, but they do sound very good. I liked both of the mics in that video and could not pick a favorite. I agree with whomever said at that point of quality it's more about flavors than right or wrong.
I haven't liked a lot of AKG mics, but I feel like that bright thing is something you sometimes want, which is why I'm working on a 251. I can see the 67-ish pair being the workhorses with their smooth, middy sound. I'm glad I have two of those.
I am also a very happy owner of a KM184, but have never used a KM84. I use it on various sources but it seems to end up on acoustic guitar more often than not. Svart's description of the sound is spot-on.
I like SDC or LDC on acoustic, I just feel like it is situation dependent, or mixed together in a multi-mic setup. It is pretty easy to just throw up any of these mics and get a usable sound, with a little care in placement and a good guitar. I think that's the beauty of a great mic. These high-end mics have really changed my whole world. I feel like mixing is a completely different game now. Getting as much as I can at the source must have been a weak spot for me in years past with my slowly evolving mic and tracking gear collection. Apollo and UH-7000 were game-changers for me as well, coming from pro-sumer interfaces. As I can get by with less EQ and mix treatment now it sounds to me like I'm doing less damage in the mixing process by using a lighter touch. I am not a professional so it has taken me years to get to this point.
I'll probably start a new thread to show off my "251" after my Tim Campbell CT12 shows up in the next month or two. Right now I'm temporarily using a chinese capsule while I wait.
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Post by Randge on Dec 16, 2015 14:56:10 GMT -6
The C-5's were a real surprise to me at how close they were to the vintage 84's we used and I bought them on the spot. This is what led me to my impedance thread. Wondering if that might help the top a little. That's why I like my modified Ampex 601's and my Ingram MPA 685. You can change the impedance and get a whole different microphone.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 16, 2015 15:39:17 GMT -6
That 67 is one of the most perfectly balanced mics I've heard. I'd grab that one if you gave me a choice of those two.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 16, 2015 23:56:10 GMT -6
As SDC's have entered the discussion we have the following SDC's... 2x KM84's 2x KM85's 2x KM184's 2x Oktava MK012's (Cardioid, Omni, Hyper Cardioid) 2x Josephson C42's 2x AKG 451EB's (Originals) 1x AKG C60 tube Overall the KM84's get the most use because they sound most like the source. The KM85's are useful for avoiding proximity effect close in, also for hi-hats and O/H if you prefer the lows rolled off. Although the KM184's are a little brighter in the tops, and slightly leaner in the lows than the KM84's, my main issue is I find the KM184's to be somewhat hard sounding. Whenever I compare a KM84 with a KM184, 9 times out of 10 I go with the 84. I actually prefer the Oktavas over the KM184's. For softer sound sources such as nylon string guitar the KM184's may get chosen but they are the least used of all of our SDC's. The Josephsons are quite bright but manage to sound pretty sweet on the right source. The AKG451's are a bit of an unknown as both sound rather different to each other and one does have a failing capsule membrane which is a common issue with older 451's. As for the AKG C60 it's been a long time since it was used as its cable got lost but that's on my list of New Years's resolutions!
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