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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 28, 2014 12:33:22 GMT -6
Actually the photographs comment is true. No producer or artist would allow a photographer in a union session because it might slow things down which could be a very expensive proposition.
Photo shoots for publicity were mostly staged with the photographer typically choosing the mike. The only real pictures of sessions were almost always taken by musicians and engineers during a break.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 28, 2014 14:28:20 GMT -6
Actually the photographs comment is true. No producer or artist would allow a photographer in a union session because it might slow things down which could be a very expensive proposition. Photo shoots for publicity were mostly staged with the photographer typically choosing the mike. The only real pictures of sessions were almost always taken by musicians and engineers during a break. Hey Bob - is it true that Marvin uses a 251?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 28, 2014 20:22:58 GMT -6
Not that I ever saw! The most popular "go to" vocal mike in LA during the '60s was an RCA 77.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 28, 2014 20:45:13 GMT -6
I put "uses"..I swear, I'm aware that Marvin is no longer with us... That's interesting, Bob! So even over 47's and the new-fangled 67's, huh?
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Post by svart on Apr 29, 2014 7:40:14 GMT -6
Honestly, I'd rock either one. 251 being too hifi? Move it around an inch or two and you'll get a better sound.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 29, 2014 9:31:09 GMT -6
In the vinyl world sibilance and breath pops are lost takes. The U67 was the first condenser one could reliably use for vocals. That's what we used mostly at Motown although we also had 47s and 77s not to mention Shure 545s that got used from time to time.
The top studio in LA was Radio Recorders who had taken over the original RCA Victor studio. RCA used mostly 77s and 44s. Most of Capitol and United/Western's crew had been hired away from Radio so there was a huge RCA influence during the '60s.
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Post by svart on Apr 29, 2014 9:58:53 GMT -6
In the vinyl world sibilance and breath pops are lost takes. The U67 was the first condenser one could reliably use for vocals. That's what we used mostly at Motown although we also had 47s and 77s not to mention Shure 545s that got used from time to time. The top studio in LA was Radio Recorders who had taken over the original RCA Victor studio. RCA used mostly 77s and 44s. Most of Capitol and United/Western's crew had been hired away from Radio so there was a huge RCA influence during the '60s. Did you find that it made much difference to the overall product if you chose one mic or another if they were of the same caliber? So, in the case of something like the 251 vs. U67, would choosing one over the other back-in-the-day gear make a huge difference?
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Post by littlesicily on Apr 29, 2014 13:46:48 GMT -6
I put "uses"..I swear, I'm aware that Marvin is no longer with us... That's interesting, Bob! So even over 47's and the new-fangled 67's, huh? Yeah, when you used the present tense "uses"... I was like... Marvin Winans?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 29, 2014 16:25:20 GMT -6
The 67, 87, 84 and 86 were/are of a higher caliber to me because they tend to simply work and not waste the performers' patience. My goal is always a usable rundown take. Our first goal is to capture magic. A 57 on a great take beats anything else on mediocre take.
The C12, 251,C12A, C412, and C414 are all what I'd call hot and cold mikes. I can't count on them to work although when they do, it's great! They are also much more fragile than Neumanns and tend to not work after being dropped.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 16:44:54 GMT -6
I put "uses"..I swear, I'm aware that Marvin is no longer with us... That's interesting, Bob! So even over 47's and the new-fangled 67's, huh? Yeah, when you used the present tense "uses"... I was like... Marvin Winans? Ha...I thought you were talking about Marlon Wayans...then I figured out he was CeCe and BeBe's brother
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Post by littlesicily on Apr 29, 2014 17:02:22 GMT -6
Yeah, when you used the present tense "uses"... I was like... Marvin Winans? Ha...I thought you were talking about Marlon Wayans...then I figured out he was CeCe and BeBe's brother Yeah, Marvin has got the smoothest voice of all of them! Like Butta ...
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Post by littlesicily on Apr 29, 2014 17:04:33 GMT -6
The 67, 87, 84 and 86 were/are of a higher caliber to me because they tend to simply work and not waste the performers' patience. My goal is always a usable rundown take. Our first goal is to capture magic. A 57 on a great take beats anything else on mediocre take. The C12, 251,C12A, C412, and C414 are all what I'd call hot and cold mikes. I can't count on them to work although when they do, it's great! They are also much more fragile than Neumanns and tend to not work after being dropped. Yeah, I've not had too many experiences where a 67 or 87 has not worked.... more so the 67. They tend to brighten up so well when needed, but the "brighter" mics can't as easily be "darkened".
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 17:20:56 GMT -6
Aw yeah!
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 29, 2014 21:23:46 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2014 22:06:40 GMT -6
I have to say...there's part of me that wants to sell it all and buy a 67 and a Scarlet and be done
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Post by deehope on Apr 29, 2014 22:19:36 GMT -6
The 67, 87, 84 and 86 were/are of a higher caliber to me because they tend to simply work and not waste the performers' patience. My goal is always a usable rundown take. Our first goal is to capture magic. A 57 on a great take beats anything else on mediocre take. The C12, 251,C12A, C412, and C414 are all what I'd call hot and cold mikes. I can't count on them to work although when they do, it's great! They are also much more fragile than Neumanns and tend to not work after being dropped. Is it true that smokey exclusively used a 414 on his sessions?
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Post by fishnmusician on Apr 29, 2014 23:29:28 GMT -6
Pretty maids all in a row Looks like Ken Scott fixn ta mic all of Billy Cobham's tom's.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 30, 2014 8:54:35 GMT -6
They didn't make the 414 when I was working with Smokey. I used a KM86 because it has better reach than the 67 which meant he could work farther back which reduced the amount of compression necessary.
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Post by Ward on Apr 30, 2014 9:33:43 GMT -6
Trying to EQ a U67 to sound like a 251, is like...
Trying to EQ a Shure SM91 to sound like a KM54/56, is like...
Putting lipstick on a pig and expecting it to win Miss America.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 30, 2014 9:58:56 GMT -6
Why would anybody want to eq a 67 to sound like a 251 when they could easily eq it to sound better than a 251?
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 30, 2014 12:02:26 GMT -6
Why would anybody want to eq a 67 to sound like a 251 when they could easily eq it to sound better than a 251? oh man lol, i think the elam 251 must have hit on your girl at some point Mr. Ohlsson
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 1, 2014 7:06:03 GMT -6
I feel a little differently. If I was offered one of those two mics, I'd grab the 67 for versatility, but.. on acoustic I think I'd choose the 251. It may have been the mic placement, but on the 67 track, I felt as if I was hearing from the guitarists perspective, all the string clicks and squeaks were highlighted. On the 251 track, it invited me in to the room, the perspective was different.
I can't explain it well but I'll try. The quality I look for most when evaluating any recording tool, mics, amps, outboard, plugs, is something I call "dreaming". There's a certain vibe that enables me to connect to the musicians. The Rolling Stone's "Beggars Banquet" and "Let it Bleed" are good examples. The acoustic guitars on some level could be called crappy sounding, yet that vibe is an endless source of wonder and imagination. I look for a sound that makes me feel like that. The Neumann KM84 I used on Daniel's Song for cowboys joint project had it, the AKG C12 I used in a recording in the 90's had it. Even certain plugs have it, my Relab XL480 for instance, and UAD's EMT 140. I used the EMT140 on every acoustic guitar track on my Naam Music Project CD, and it just gets you there.
I think at the level of U67's and 251's, it's more about sound design than the individual quality. Knowing how you'd like a recording to sound and choosing the gear to get you there is something cowboy and Bob Olhsson know a lot more about than I do. I use Jimmy Page's productions as a guide sometimes. He would do all sorts of things to get the sound he wanted, use three mics sometimes, even putting a mic inside the damned guitar occasionally.
I think that 251 would just sit in the track and bring you right into the performer soul.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 1, 2014 7:18:43 GMT -6
Just had a related thought. I switched the opamp in my Warm Audio ToneBeast last week. It's designed so that some different opamps can be plugged right in. It has two selectable opamps, so you can change both, or keep one original and switch one if you like. I kept the 731 based opamp, but switched the x18 opamp for the John Hardy 990+. Strangely, it makes my Martin D-41 Turbo sound like a jumbo Gibson, but whoa, what an amazing sound it is! When I want that vibe, I've got it now, so it's a choice, not a default. I guess I can use the 731 opamp if I want my Martin to sound like a Martin, ha!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 1, 2014 8:35:21 GMT -6
The difference between a stunning sounding acoustic and a crappy one is usually the strings and setup. Acoustics frustrated the heck out of me before I moved to San Francisco and learned about this. Tony Rice turned me on to using a km-84 and I have yet to hear anything better especially when it comes to just sitting in a track.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2014 8:38:03 GMT -6
Man...I just need to suck it up and buy a K84...
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