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Post by Quint on May 3, 2021 15:04:40 GMT -6
Regardless of how the sound of the Suhr compares to others, the feature on the Suhr that really appeals to me is the non-IR convolved DI out. That's a really cool feature. I would totally use that to record the dry and wet IR signal into the DAW in parallel. Yeah for sure. If I didn't already have the Iridium (which I can use as a live IR host), I'd have gotten the Suhr RL IR version. I still might sometime. The Iridium, CAB, and Suhr are all different products. I could see where I could use all three in different situations. I still often mic up amps the old school way, but sometimes a tracking situation dictates that bleed not be an issue.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 3, 2021 15:18:51 GMT -6
At my spot, I've got a live room (drums) and a couple iso booths. I've got a bass cab micd up in one and a guitar cab micd up in the other. I've had a couple times where I've micd an amp with me in the control room for isolation, but listening to that next to me while I'm working blows. I've been considering grabbing an Iridium, but maybe I should be looking at one of these things instead. Any downfall with these?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 15:25:11 GMT -6
That's my point though. I don't want to EVER have to think about latency, early or late stage on a song. I don't want to freeze plugins or have to do other time wasting work arounds. I'm just done with all of that. Which is why I have standalone boxes for this sort of thing now. The Suhr RL sounds like another standalone box that I should give a try. It's great that these sort of products exist now. I do, however, always take a DI for reamping and what not. I am with you re: latency/standalone. I haven't touched native DAW monitoring in many years. I just hate even a few ms of latency. It doesn't have to sound like a slapback to bug me, it gets un-immediate and thin/phasey long before I can perceive it as 'latency'. Everyone has different sensitivities to these things though. But, like you, I won't muck around with trying to crank my DAW buffer way down. I have bus processing in my sessions from the beginning, some of which are HW inserts. Native DAW monitoring is a non-starter for me. Alright, alright I get it.. Unfortunately the IR version of the Suhr wasn't available when I bought it, I did think about getting the ENGL Cab loader on more than one occasion (or something similar).
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Post by bricejchandler on May 3, 2021 15:25:57 GMT -6
At my spot, I've got a live room (drums) and a couple iso booths. I've got a bass cab micd up in one and a guitar cab micd up in the other. I've had a couple times where I've micd an amp with me in the control room for isolation, but listening to that next to me while I'm working blows. I've been considering grabbing an Iridium, but maybe I should be looking at one of these things instead. Any downfall with these? I own the Iridium and the suhr reaxtive ir and I much prefer playing my amps into the suhr. It sounds better and most importantly if feels a lot better under the fingers. Since you already have amps, it only makes sense to get the Suhr. Particularly since you can make with own Irs with your set up and then use those.
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Post by notneeson on May 3, 2021 15:27:52 GMT -6
Understood but I've only found latency an issue when doing overdubs (which is a none issue if you freeze your plugs), I'd still take the DI signal irrelevant so you can change or multiply cabs if needed. The IR portion for me would be monitoring only.. Personally I'd go Suhr all the way in whatever configuration you prefer then sell the rest (it's a great box). That's my point though. I don't want to EVER have to think about latency. So much this.
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Post by notneeson on May 3, 2021 16:41:40 GMT -6
At my spot, I've got a live room (drums) and a couple iso booths. I've got a bass cab micd up in one and a guitar cab micd up in the other. I've had a couple times where I've micd an amp with me in the control room for isolation, but listening to that next to me while I'm working blows. I've been considering grabbing an Iridium, but maybe I should be looking at one of these things instead. Any downfall with these? I don't have first hand experience with this type of box, but in a room for hire situation, it could be a vibe killer if one of the musicians gets in a snit about not being able to mic their amp. Have had a few of those over the years, but not too many, really. (Not the IR thing, but things of that ilk where someone is touchy about their sacrosanct guitar tone).
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Post by Quint on May 3, 2021 17:18:04 GMT -6
At my spot, I've got a live room (drums) and a couple iso booths. I've got a bass cab micd up in one and a guitar cab micd up in the other. I've had a couple times where I've micd an amp with me in the control room for isolation, but listening to that next to me while I'm working blows. I've been considering grabbing an Iridium, but maybe I should be looking at one of these things instead. Any downfall with these? I don't have first hand experience with this type of box, but in a room for hire situation, it could be a vibe killer if one of the musicians gets in a snit about not being able to mic their amp. Have had a few of those over the years, but not too many, really. (Not the IR thing, but things of that ilk where someone is touchy about their sacrosanct guitar tone). That's one of the nice things about load boxes like the Suhr. Other than their speaker, you are capturing their real amp. It's sort of the same reason I bought the Two Notes CAB. You can come out of an amp's preamp (pre power amp) via an fx loop and kind of do the same thing, the big difference being that a load box also captures the power amp too. But, for a load box you've gotta have a speaker output jack on the amp just like you've gotta have a preamp out/fx loop to use something like the CAB. Both situations can occur. It's why I might still hold onto the CAB even if I pick up the Suhr.
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Post by notneeson on May 3, 2021 18:03:51 GMT -6
I don't have first hand experience with this type of box, but in a room for hire situation, it could be a vibe killer if one of the musicians gets in a snit about not being able to mic their amp. Have had a few of those over the years, but not too many, really. (Not the IR thing, but things of that ilk where someone is touchy about their sacrosanct guitar tone). That's one of the nice things about load boxes like the Suhr. Other than their speaker, you are capturing their real amp. It's sort of the same reason I bought the Two Notes CAB. You can come out of an amp's preamp (pre power amp) via an fx loop and kind of do the same thing, the big difference being that a load box also captures the power amp too. But, for a load box you've gotta have a speaker output jack on the amp just like you've gotta have a preamp out/fx loop to use something like the CAB. Both situations can occur. It's why I might still hold onto the CAB even if I pick up the Suhr. I am with you there, personally. I really want to try one for recording at my house. Just saying, I have recorded some folks who I just know would give me $shit for pulling the Suhr (or similar) out on a paid session. And sometimes frankly, it's like fantasy music camp for grown ups and they want to do it the way they think their heroes did. But I digress.
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Post by Quint on May 3, 2021 18:26:57 GMT -6
That's one of the nice things about load boxes like the Suhr. Other than their speaker, you are capturing their real amp. It's sort of the same reason I bought the Two Notes CAB. You can come out of an amp's preamp (pre power amp) via an fx loop and kind of do the same thing, the big difference being that a load box also captures the power amp too. But, for a load box you've gotta have a speaker output jack on the amp just like you've gotta have a preamp out/fx loop to use something like the CAB. Both situations can occur. It's why I might still hold onto the CAB even if I pick up the Suhr. I am with you there, personally. I really want to try one for recording at my house. Just saying, I have recorded some folks who I just know would give me $shit for pulling the Suhr (or similar) out on a paid session. And sometimes frankly, it's like fantasy music camp for grown ups and they want to do it the way they think their heroes did. But I digress. Oh I for sure get it, and my preference would be to always mic up an amp. But in the sort of situation you describe, I would just put it on them that they have to decide which is more important: A. A fully miced up amp with bleed and all that entails, especially if they can't play it correctly all at the same time. B. A silent amp (via load box, Iridium, etc) with a safety DI recorded which can always be reamped or simply overdubbed, the benefit being that that great drum take isn't ruined by a guitar flub played out loud in the same room. If they can all play at the same time, then let it bleed. Otherwise...
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 3, 2021 18:55:29 GMT -6
I hae to say it, but I really didn't like any of those guitar tones on Ragan's tracks. I loved the tracks though. I only liked III B a little. It kind of bummed me out because I hoped the OX would get me a great sound without micing my amp. UAD's Marshall Plexi is pretty good, I don't love any of Logic's amps, though they set them up nicely. I liked the IK Ampeg Bass plug enough to actually sell my bass amp that was the same model they emulated.
So I bought the IK Fender amp plugs that were on sale for $25 last week. I haven't used them yet, but hope they're a bit better than Logic's. I had the Iridium for a couple of weeks. It was fun using it, but the tone wasn't quite right either.
Last time it was important, I had to mic my amp. Hopefully the IK plugs will be useable occasionally.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 3, 2021 20:29:00 GMT -6
At my spot, I've got a live room (drums) and a couple iso booths. I've got a bass cab micd up in one and a guitar cab micd up in the other. I've had a couple times where I've micd an amp with me in the control room for isolation, but listening to that next to me while I'm working blows. I've been considering grabbing an Iridium, but maybe I should be looking at one of these things instead. Any downfall with these? I don't have first hand experience with this type of box, but in a room for hire situation, it could be a vibe killer if one of the musicians gets in a snit about not being able to mic their amp. Have had a few of those over the years, but not too many, really. (Not the IR thing, but things of that ilk where someone is touchy about their sacrosanct guitar tone). For me, it would probably generally be just for scratch tracks while the whole band is playing together.
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Post by popmann on May 3, 2021 21:16:57 GMT -6
I'd use a modeler all day....but, you know--I would also never use a cranked Princeton for any chordal work, so YMMV....I would make sure you demo the Amplitube 5 Collection that has the Princeton in it....was it the one they have on sale for $25? Don't even demo it. Buy that....make that the starting point. You play your amp (mic'd) and that at the same time....get them dialed as close as you can. Record that....then start messing with your load boxes and Its and such.
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Post by thehightenor on May 4, 2021 1:24:39 GMT -6
If I bought an Ironman II attenuator which is apparently very good and attenuated my Princeton 68 CPR so I can get the amp to around 4 where the sweet spot is.
What about the speaker being quiet with mics in front of it - is it the case that the speaker also has a sweet spot and has to be at volume to sound great?
I'm not doing high gain stuff, just goosing the sound a bit with some mild OD from pedals to get some crunch.
Just looking for an alternative to maybe at least use mics some of the time when everyone is out of the house.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 4, 2021 1:45:15 GMT -6
If I bought an Ironman II attenuator which is apparently very good and attenuated my Princeton 68 CPR so I can get the amp to around 4 where the sweet spot is. What about the speaker being quiet with mics in front of it - is it the case that the speaker also has a sweet spot and has to be at volume to sound great? I'm not doing high gain stuff, just goosing the sound a bit with some mild OD from pedals to get some crunch. Just looking for an alternative to maybe at least use mics some of the time when everyone is out of the house. I have an attenuator and I use it occasionally at home. The more attenuation you use, the worse it sounds. On my Deluxe57, which is deafeningly loud for such a small amp, as soon as I get close to a volume that's apartment friendly, the amp just doesn't sound good anymore, I have a Celestion Blue in it and that speaker has to be pushed to sing. None of my amps have master volumes and I use my attenuator live to find the right volume for the room, but usually I'm only going to be turning it down a couple dbs. For that it works great, for silent recording, I find I get a much punchier sound with the Suhr. I find that all solutions are a compromise, nothing sounds as good as the amp loud.
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Post by thehightenor on May 4, 2021 2:10:12 GMT -6
OK thanks, perhaps not an attenuator then.
I was watching a video of Tim Pierce and he has a cab vault the size of a family SUV, in there he's running his cabs at literally stadium volumes and then monitoring on his studio monitors in his control room at normal studio volumes - it sounds fantastic!
It looks like whatever I do I'm going to have to compromise, moving house seems a little too drastic.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 4, 2021 2:32:06 GMT -6
I'll add that I'm in an apartment building so I really can't play loud at all so my loud may not be your loud. In a house, the attenuator might be enough! The Ox has an built in attenuator so it might be a good place to start and see what works for you.
It took me about 2 years to find a setup I found satisfying, I tried the Kemper, the Iridium, the OX, plugins, the Grossmann, attenuators and finally settled on the Suhr and I feel all are a compromise but the Suhr felt the most inspiring to me. I have some friends that went through the same process and one got the Grossmann, one got the OX and one got the Kemper...
Tim Pierce's set up is awesome but that is a big iso cab!
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Post by Guitar on May 4, 2021 3:51:10 GMT -6
I don't have first hand experience with this type of box, but in a room for hire situation, it could be a vibe killer if one of the musicians gets in a snit about not being able to mic their amp. Have had a few of those over the years, but not too many, really. (Not the IR thing, but things of that ilk where someone is touchy about their sacrosanct guitar tone). For me, it would probably generally be just for scratch tracks while the whole band is playing together. If everybody is in headphones already (just assuming,) then why not? It would save so much bleed. I'd probably go for one of the all-in-one boxes for zero latency and ease of setup (session speed.) The quality would be good enough to use the tracks if the scratch tracks end up being keeper takes.
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Post by Guitar on May 4, 2021 4:49:10 GMT -6
If I bought an Ironman II attenuator which is apparently very good and attenuated my Princeton 68 CPR so I can get the amp to around 4 where the sweet spot is. What about the speaker being quiet with mics in front of it - is it the case that the speaker also has a sweet spot and has to be at volume to sound great? I'm not doing high gain stuff, just goosing the sound a bit with some mild OD from pedals to get some crunch. Just looking for an alternative to maybe at least use mics some of the time when everyone is out of the house. I like the attenuators. My personal tone is a pushed amp tone, always has been. If I were to play a DSL100 4x12, for example, where I like it set, I'd be deaf pretty quickly, and terrorizing the environment, so they are sort of essential for me, with some amps. This is the only way to get 4 EL34's working a bit, but quieter. Even a master volume won't get the power amp working the same as an output attenuator. Or, to the topic of the thread, a silent load can get you cooking as well. My first amp DI / IR recording was a Fender Showman, I was chuffed to get that thing to go into mild overdrive, something you could never get away with in a room. That is one of the loudest, cleanest tube amps on the planet. Without the power section struggling a little bit the tone is not there, for what I'm chasing. This is where the brown sound comes from. Speakers need to be driven, some more than others, so for recording I think you want a little bit of volume in the room for an ideal tone. At some point the cabinet becomes more involved in the tone too, and that's usually a little louder, and sounds better. Some speakers will start to compress also at higher volumes, and there can be cone breakup, especially with smaller and/or lower power handling speakers. I wish I had discovered attenuation at a much younger age, for long term hearing health reasons. And just having the sweet spot of the amp as a given, independent of volume control. Digital amps and amp sims are the easy way out if you have some you can trust. If you have an attenuator you can try, my advice is to do so, and see if it works for you, or not. It's a nice tool to have in the box. Your mileage may vary, my 2 cents.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 4, 2021 4:59:48 GMT -6
For me, it would probably generally be just for scratch tracks while the whole band is playing together. If everybody is in headphones already (just assuming,) then why not? It would save so much bleed. I'd probably go for one of the all-in-one boxes for zero latency and ease of setup (session speed.) The quality would be good enough to use the tracks if the scratch tracks end up being keeper takes. When I have to use the Suhr in a session, I always DI the guitar and also get the Unfiltered out of the Loadbox as well as the IR. Internal IR for monitoring with zero latency; often ends up being the keeper track, the unfiltered to use IRs later and the DI to reamp if needed. Though to be honest, I record some really really loud bands, and some insist on no headphones and I've never had a big problem with guitar amp bleed. I've struggled with the lows 8X10 ampegs just messing everything up but never had an issue with guitar amps. Though in the case of these bands, they track live and just keep playing until everybody's got their parts down because if there is really big mistake in the guitar and you have to overdub it, you'll hear some of the original guitar in the room tone, and even then, I've done it sometimes and it sounded fine. When tracking a live band I really find that having everybody and amps in the same room without headphones helps balance the band and saves me a ton of time come mix time.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 4, 2021 5:03:25 GMT -6
If I bought an Ironman II attenuator which is apparently very good and attenuated my Princeton 68 CPR so I can get the amp to around 4 where the sweet spot is. What about the speaker being quiet with mics in front of it - is it the case that the speaker also has a sweet spot and has to be at volume to sound great? I'm not doing high gain stuff, just goosing the sound a bit with some mild OD from pedals to get some crunch. Just looking for an alternative to maybe at least use mics some of the time when everyone is out of the house. I like the attenuators. My personal tone is a pushed amp tone, always has been. If I were to play a DSL100 4x12, for example, where I like it set, I'd be deaf pretty quickly, and terrorizing the environment, so they are sort of essential for me, with some amps. This is the only way to get 4 EL34's working a bit, but quieter. Even a master volume won't get the power amp working the same as an output attenuator. Or, to the topic of the thread, a silent load can get you cooking as well. My first amp DI / IR recording was a Fender Showman, I was chuffed to get that thing to go into mild overdrive, something you could never get away with in a room. That is one of the loudest, cleanest tube amps on the planet. Without the power section struggling a little bit the tone is not there, for what I'm chasing. This is where the brown sound comes from. Speakers need to be driven, some more than others, so for recording I think you want a little bit of volume in the room for an ideal tone. At some point the cabinet becomes more involved in the tone too, and that's usually a little louder, and sounds better. Some speakers will start to compress also at higher volumes, and there can be cone breakup, especially with smaller and/or lower power handling speakers. I wish I had discovered attenuation at a much younger age, for long term hearing health reasons. And just having the sweet spot of the amp as a given, independent of volume control. Digital amps and amp sims are the easy way out if you have some you can trust. If you have an attenuator you can try, my advice is to do so, and see if it works for you, or not. It's a nice tool to have in the box. Your mileage may vary, my 2 cents. I agree with this 100%. For me attenuators excel at finding the sweet spot for a driven amp at acceptable levels but like for a JMP that means instead of being 747 at take off loud, it's going to be V8 engine revving loud, it's still going to be extreeeeemely loud and not suitable for home/bedroom recordings.
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Post by Drew @ UA on May 4, 2021 7:28:12 GMT -6
So my family have talked me in to getting a solution as an alternative to running my Princeton 68 CPR live and loud miced with my 57 and AEA R92. A different style of house with a large garage and a cab vault the size of a family SUV ala Tim Pierce style is of course the answer - but until then .... I have given myself three choices within my budget (after some research) 1. Boss WAZA TAE - this looks good to me, it has a fancy variable load curve you can dial in to match your amp and it can load 3rd party IR's (of which their are many great one now) add an FX loop to the Princeton and all in all looks to be a swiss army knife for recording a tube amp in a project studio setting. 2. UA OX Box - modelled mics and cabs (UA are very good at modelling) but I'm paying twice for the UA reverb, EQ's, comp, room modelling software as I already have UA Powered plugins galore. 3. Grossman ISO box - I'm really worried it will sound stuffy, congested and boxy - not my fav option but I could still use my mics and pre's and "keep it real" and add space later with AU Ocean Way etc. The TAE actually seems more popular these days than the OX box and the Grossman's fans seem few and far apart for some reason - are digital solutions better than ISO boxes these days? Anyway - any thoughts and user feedback would be greatly appreciated. tht Let me know if there are any specific questions about OX I can answer.
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Post by thehightenor on May 4, 2021 8:38:50 GMT -6
I'll add that I'm in an apartment building so I really can't play loud at all so my loud may not be your loud. In a house, the attenuator might be enough! The Ox has an built in attenuator so it might be a good place to start and see what works for you. It took me about 2 years to find a setup I found satisfying, I tried the Kemper, the Iridium, the OX, plugins, the Grossmann, attenuators and finally settled on the Suhr and I feel all are a compromise but the Suhr felt the most inspiring to me. I have some friends that went through the same process and one got the Grossmann, one got the OX and one got the Kemper... Tim Pierce's set up is awesome but that is a big iso cab! I'm in the converted loft in a house so I'm ok with a Princeton at about 2 (ish) I'd like to get it to 3.5 ideally so maybe like an Ironman II attenuator would get my where I want to be and I can just push on with mics? After another 4 hours of Youtube videos (yikes) I've ruled out a Grossman, the OX just isn't the sound I have in my head - it sounds too "radio ready" for my taste .... so far I like what I've heard from the Suhr IR and also to a degree the WAZA TAE - the Suhr IR sounds the most like an amp, mic and cab that then needs to be mixed and I guess as I love to mix that's what I'm looking for mainly. At least I'm zoning in some sort of solution(s)
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Post by Bat Lanyard on May 4, 2021 8:48:30 GMT -6
I tried the OX and found it to be really fun but I didn’t like its tone. It sounded more like a sim to me than an actual sim like TH-U (which I like). Subjective of course but my ears just didn’t buy it. In this thread there’s a comparison I did of the OX and my ISO box setup: realgearonline.com/thread/8431/ua-ox-amp-top-box?page=3That was pretty much my impression as well, though I still kept the OX. I don't ever record with it though. Just doesn't get to a mic'd up cab sound for me.
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Post by phantom on May 4, 2021 9:25:31 GMT -6
I just tried the OX from these reactive loaders.
Didn't like the sound. Nothing like a mic in a cab, unfortunately. I sent it back.
But I would love a device like this to sound good. I mean, would make things a lot easier. I need to test the WAZA and Suhr
Btw, attenuators are a completely fine way to crank an amp without blowing all the other things on the room. I have used Ironman II and MiniMass with great success.
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shawnh
Junior Member
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Post by shawnh on May 4, 2021 11:26:39 GMT -6
My experience with the Ox is that it does take quite a bit of tweaking initially to dial in what you want. For example most of the presets have a lot of room sound - which can sound great but isn't going to sound like your amp close mic in your room. I start with the cab/speaker that is closest to what my amp has and just use 1 close mic. You can go crazy from there with 2nd mic, room, eq, effects, etc. But if you are trying to match the sound you get from close miking your amp then you need to start with a similar setup. I've been very happy with the results.
There is no latency issue at all if you are using direct monitoring.
The Ironman II is a really excellent attenuator - the best I have tried.
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