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Post by thehightenor on May 3, 2021 6:30:36 GMT -6
So my family have talked me in to getting a solution as an alternative to running my Princeton 68 CPR live and loud miced with my 57 and AEA R92.
A different style of house with a large garage and a cab vault the size of a family SUV ala Tim Pierce style is of course the answer - but until then ....
I have given myself three choices within my budget (after some research)
1. Boss WAZA TAE - this looks good to me, it has a fancy variable load curve you can dial in to match your amp and it can load 3rd party IR's (of which their are many great one now) add an FX loop to the Princeton and all in all looks to be a swiss army knife for recording a tube amp in a project studio setting.
2. UA OX Box - modelled mics and cabs (UA are very good at modelling) but I'm paying twice for the UA reverb, EQ's, comp, room modelling software as I already have UA Powered plugins galore.
3. Grossman ISO box - I'm really worried it will sound stuffy, congested and boxy - not my fav option but I could still use my mics and pre's and "keep it real" and add space later with AU Ocean Way etc.
The TAE actually seems more popular these days than the OX box and the Grossman's fans seem few and far apart for some reason - are digital solutions better than ISO boxes these days?
Anyway - any thoughts and user feedback would be greatly appreciated.
tht
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Post by indiehouse on May 3, 2021 6:59:26 GMT -6
I dig my Suhr Reactive Load IR. Might be worth considering.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 3, 2021 7:00:53 GMT -6
I have a couple buds with the Two Notes boxes and they get great sounds.
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Post by mrholmes on May 3, 2021 7:06:29 GMT -6
I soldered a 100 Watt load resistor into a case and used IRs for years - works fine without spending big bucks for the same thing.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 3, 2021 7:48:01 GMT -6
I had a Grossmann for about a year. I really really really wanted to love it but it just didn't work out.
It didn't have the bite I like in my amps ( 63 Princeton ,reissue deluxe57 and an AC15), no punch. Maybe it would work better with more modern amps. I did get a really really great lead tone with it, that sounded great for slow blues but that was about it. I got one GREAT tone and a lot of bad ones. It sounded somewhere between an amp, and plugging your guitar straight into a DI. When I had it I'd often just use plug ins because I just couldn't get my tone. And my tone is not really complex, Strat into a Fender reverb tank into a Fender Princeton or 57, you pretty much stick any mic in front and it sounds fine but I realized those amps need a room, they need space.
Another thing is the Grossmann isn't 100% silent, if you're using a driven Fender it's still going to be pretty loud unless you use an attenuator but then you're not hitting the speaker as loud and a large part of the distortion on those amps is the speaker breaking up.
Anyway The guy I sold it to loves it but he's more of a metal guy and maybe it just works better for that genre.
Currently I'm using the Suhr Reactive Load IR and it's the best I've tried. I still think my miced amps sound better but it's totally useable. I've also tried the OX, it sounded good but it was just too complicated for me, I'm much happier plugging my amp into the Suhr then the Suhr into a Mic pre and just record. Plus for what I do I don't need endless possibilities. Basically I just use 2 IRs and switch between them depending on the part. I also have an Iridium that I use for some stuff, I don't use it for main tracks but it's another sound at my disposal and it's so small you can take it anywhere. I didn't like it at first but then I loaded 3rd party IRs and it worked much better. The Iridium does have a tiny bit of latency, it's not huge but you really feel it on your picking hand, I don't get that with the Suhr, I feel like I'm just playing an amp, I don't get that disconnected thing you get with plugins or some sims.
I would try to test the ox, the Suhr and the Boss if you can, as they all have different sounds and one might be a better match with your amps and esthetic.
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Post by thehightenor on May 3, 2021 8:17:20 GMT -6
Thanks for that, I've now dismissed the idea of an ISO cab - they don't sound right to me - an SUV sized cab vault is a different story!
I can't get demos of units - only buy then send back if I don't like.
I just watched a demo of Pete Thorn playing through the OX direct to DAW and to be honest in his hands it sounded fantastic.
Perhaps as I'm already invested in the UA universe the OX makes the most sense to get the best of my Princeton 68 CPR as I'm happy to mess with mic etc as I was doing that in the real world anyway until I realised it's just too loud for family life (driving my wife and kids crazy :-)
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shawnh
Junior Member
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Post by shawnh on May 3, 2021 8:32:42 GMT -6
The ox is pretty fantastic for me. For recording it’s just about perfect. It’s not the best attenuator out there but I use it for that all the time too - it’s already hooked up to my amp (69 drip edge Princeton reverb) and if I set the speaker out to 3 I can turn the PR up to about 7 and it sounds pretty great and doesn’t hurt my ears.
The best thing is that with all the various speaker cabs and mics available it turns 1 amp into many options. So many new tones.
It’s quick and convenient. Always hooked via digital outs to my interface. Turn on the amp and the ox and I’m ready to record.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 3, 2021 8:52:32 GMT -6
Thanks for that, I've now dismissed the idea of an ISO cab - they don't sound right to me - an SUV sized cab vault is a different story! I can't get demos of units - only buy then send back if I don't like. I just watched a demo of Pete Thorn playing through the OX direct to DAW and to be honest in his hands it sounded fantastic. Perhaps as I'm already invested in the UA universe the OX makes the most sense to get the best of my Princeton 68 CPR as I'm happy to mess with mic etc as I was doing that in the real world anyway until I realised it's just too loud for family life (driving my wife and kids crazy :-) Pete Thorn makes everything sound great! The Ox is a great choice and very versatile. If you're a tweaker you'll love it. I found it simpler to do IRs of my own miced setup in the studio and just import them into the Suhr.
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Post by thehightenor on May 3, 2021 8:54:19 GMT -6
The ox is pretty fantastic for me. For recording it’s just about perfect. It’s not the best attenuator out there but I use it for that all the time too - it’s already hooked up to my amp (69 drip edge Princeton reverb) and if I set the speaker out to 3 I can turn the PR up to about 7 and it sounds pretty great and doesn’t hurt my ears. The best thing is that with all the various speaker cabs and mics available it turns 1 amp into many options. So many new tones. It’s quick and convenient. Always hooked via digital outs to my interface. Turn on the amp and the ox and I’m ready to record. Yep, that sounds very appealing! I can also go via the digital straight into my rig. I presume the latency of the OX is close to irrelevant? You're also using a Princeton Reverb so that's great, my 68 CPR sweet spot is 3.5 to 4 and at that point it's stupid loud in my room so just having it coming out of my studio monitors and tracking parts would be great! Thanks tht
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Post by thehightenor on May 3, 2021 8:57:26 GMT -6
Thanks for that, I've now dismissed the idea of an ISO cab - they don't sound right to me - an SUV sized cab vault is a different story! I can't get demos of units - only buy then send back if I don't like. I just watched a demo of Pete Thorn playing through the OX direct to DAW and to be honest in his hands it sounded fantastic. Perhaps as I'm already invested in the UA universe the OX makes the most sense to get the best of my Princeton 68 CPR as I'm happy to mess with mic etc as I was doing that in the real world anyway until I realised it's just too loud for family life (driving my wife and kids crazy :-) Pete Thorn makes everything sound great! The Ox is a great choice and very versatile. If you're a tweaker you'll love it. I found it simpler to do IRs of my own miced setup in the studio and just import them into the Suhr. I'd have to learn how to make IR's !! Actually, in truth I know from experience of plugin reverb's I've always favoured modelled algo based reverbs over IR convolution based reverbs, so I'm thinking I might feel the same about cab emulations? I'm with you on Pete Thorn - I love his playing - nice guy too.
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Post by ragan on May 3, 2021 9:04:02 GMT -6
I tried the OX and found it to be really fun but I didn’t like its tone. It sounded more like a sim to me than an actual sim like TH-U (which I like). Subjective of course but my ears just didn’t buy it. In this thread there’s a comparison I did of the OX and my ISO box setup: realgearonline.com/thread/8431/ua-ox-amp-top-box?page=3
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Post by ragan on May 3, 2021 9:07:54 GMT -6
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Post by thehightenor on May 3, 2021 9:11:19 GMT -6
I tried the OX and found it to be really fun but I didn’t like its tone. It sounded more like a sim to me than an actual sim like TH-U (which I like). Subjective of course but my ears just didn’t buy it. In this thread there’s a comparison I did if the OX and my ISO box setup: realgearonline.com/thread/8431/ua-ox-amp-top-box?page=3Hi, I have heard your shoot out. I'm not keen on ISO boxes myself and I've heard enough You Tube videos today to convince me (with my proclivity for tweaking) that the OX box will get me closest to the sound I have in my head. UA seem to have built the unit with a small combo amp (like the Princeton) in mind - I can imagine the WAZA TAE would be very useful for a live player. At the end of the day, real mics and a cab at volume in a great recording room is the sound I favour, so anything I choose is a compromise.
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Post by thehightenor on May 3, 2021 9:17:24 GMT -6
I understand the DAW IR loader part but what part of this equation does the choosing different mics and on and off axis etc .... is that baked into the IR you use? Also does the DAW IR loader/player introduce latency at the size of your DAW's current buffer setting?
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Post by ragan on May 3, 2021 9:18:13 GMT -6
I tried the OX and found it to be really fun but I didn’t like its tone. It sounded more like a sim to me than an actual sim like TH-U (which I like). Subjective of course but my ears just didn’t buy it. In this thread there’s a comparison I did if the OX and my ISO box setup: realgearonline.com/thread/8431/ua-ox-amp-top-box?page=3Hi, I have heard your shoot out. I'm not keen on ISO boxes myself and I've heard enough You Tube videos today to convince me (with my proclivity for tweaking) that the OX box will get me closest to the sound I have in my head. UA seem to have built the unit with a small combo amp (like the Princeton) in mind - I can imagine the WAZA TAE would be very useful for a live player. At the end of the day, real mics and a cab at volume in a great recording room is the sound I favour, so anything I choose is a compromise. Sure. And you may love the OX, many do. Just wanted to add my little perspective since I’ve tried the approaches being discussed here. And like I said, the OX was really fun. Slick interface, fun to mess around with. I was using it with an AC15 and a Deluxe Reverb. If I didn’t dislike the sonics I would have loved to keep it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 9:20:26 GMT -6
Agree with Ragan, IMO you'd be better off with a Suhr reactive load and Ownhammer IR's. Or if you don't want to suffer RTT latency you can always purchase something from two notes then load your own IR's or use their's.
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Post by ragan on May 3, 2021 9:25:02 GMT -6
I understand the DAW IR loader part but what part of this equation does the choosing different mics and on and off axis etc .... is that baked into the IR you use? Also does the DAW IR loader/player introduce latency at the size of your DAW's current buffer setting? Yes, the IRs are created with different mics, angles, etc, so you browse through them and see what sounds good. I’ll have (usually) a 57 and a Royer 121 on two tracks, like I do when I mic an amp. I monitor the IRs with a Strymon Iridium, so no DAW buffer/latency. But the raw Suhr RL is what I actually record so that I can mess with the IRs as much as I want in the DAW. If I didn’t already have the Iridium, I’d have gotten the version of the Suhr that hosts IRs itself.
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Post by thehightenor on May 3, 2021 9:33:00 GMT -6
Agree with Ragan, IMO you'd be better off with a Suhr reactive load and Ownhammer IR's. Or if you don't want to suffer RTT latency you can always purchase something from two notes then load your own IR's or use their's. Right .... I'm getting a clearer picture - thank you. I'm starting to see where the BOSS TAE would fit my rig so well. It's a hardware IR loader with close to zero latency and it's variable reactive load which can be tailored to suit each amp looks to be quite unique. I just listened to a SOS mag demo of the BOSS WAZA TAE and I thought it sounded stunning. Perhaps IR's are the way forward - there is so much more choice. Thanks for all your fantastic input and experience guys, I much appreciate it.
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Post by ragan on May 3, 2021 9:41:53 GMT -6
I am a big believer in IRs. I use almost exclusively OwnHammer for cabs. They just sound so ‘correct’ to my ear. I also use Reverberate 3 with all kinds of IRs and it’s my favorite way to do reverb in general. I’ve also happened to do a lot of homework the last couple years with convolution/IRs so maybe I’m a little biased by my fascination with them.
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Post by thehightenor on May 3, 2021 9:46:22 GMT -6
I am a big believer in IRs. I use almost exclusively OwnHammer for cabs. They just sound so ‘correct’ to my ear. I also use Reverberate 3 with all kinds of IRs and it’s my favorite way to do reverb in general. I’ve also happened to do a lot of homework the last couple years with convolution/IRs so maybe I’m a little biased by my fascination with them. I'm very into the UA Ocean Ways plugin - I think that might use IR's and it does sound great.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 9:58:00 GMT -6
Agree with Ragan, IMO you'd be better off with a Suhr reactive load and Ownhammer IR's. Or if you don't want to suffer RTT latency you can always purchase something from two notes then load your own IR's or use their's. Right .... I'm getting a clearer picture - thank you. I'm starting to see where the BOSS TAE would fit my rig so well. It's a hardware IR loader with close to zero latency and it's variable reactive load which can be tailored to suit each amp looks to be quite unique. I just listened to a SOS mag demo of the BOSS WAZA TAE and I thought it sounded stunning. Perhaps IR's are the way forward - there is so much more choice. Thanks for all your fantastic input and experience guys, I much appreciate it. Just checked it out, looks pretty cool.. I think the key feature is the ability to load your own IR's, sound clips are okay, they point you in the general direction but in a studio with your own amp / guitars / pickups / preferences and playing style the end result rarely matches. I won't say that IR's are a direct replacement for a mic'd up amp, especially if the end goal is raw as possible although on the other hand I've rarely been disappointed with decent IR's. Some IR's sound weirdly hi-fi and to match it you'd need some decent (often expensive) condensers and a lot of time on your hands to avoid phase issues, even then I have on occasion chosen the IR because it fits the song and I can blend different cabs. Ultimately my point is, I don't see them as a downgrade just another toolset. It's like comparing decent mic X to decent mix Y...
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Post by Guitar on May 3, 2021 10:05:32 GMT -6
I had a pretty bad experience with the Two Notes Torpedo Captor. I thought the DI itself was kind of disgusting sounding, not exaggerating, there were massive spikes that sounded like digital clipping, and the tone itself was flat and a bit dead. To go a step further, the Wall Of Sound software is kind of a huge bundle of complexity, very unreliable on my computer, not fun to use, but some of the sounds were decent.
What I ended up with is a Countryman 85 DI doing the DI part, out of the back of the amp head. And a cheap Bugera SP1 doing the load. I'd like to replace the Bugera with an SPL Reducer or something high end like that, but it's not a current priority. The bugera is in fact "good behringer." There are a few of those in their line. This rig is about 2000% better sounding than the Two Notes Torpedo Captor, for a similar cost (two separate boxes, though.) And I do still have to have a speaker connected, although it runs at near silence when the knob is fully turned.
If I were buying a fancy amp top box, my first purchase would be the BOSS. I have full confidence in the brand, for many reasons, including their excellent Katana amplifier line. I spent weeks researching this for some reason and the UA OX didn't catch my ear. I also don't like any of the UA amp sims, the plugins they sell, other than the ones coded by outside developers, which are mostly available from Plugin Alliance now as native plugins.
If I were buying a mid priced load box / IR all in one, I would probably go for the Suhr Reactive Load, the new one with internal IR's. That would be enough for me, at least that's the expectation.
IR selection is critical. This might take some time, to come up with a small library of your favorites, that you trust. They vary wildly and require careful selection in my experience, even with the top brands. Like you, I'd like to make my own, eventually, of all my favorite personal cabinets and mic placements.
My favorite IR loader is free, it's NadIR from Ignite. Although there are many that will suffice. Only cost me about $300 total or so to be happy in the amp DI / load box / IR game. If you collect IR's this could add up rapidly. I wish there were some easy way to demo them without buying, but I realize there are technical reasons this is not possible.
Hope that helps, this has been sort of a journey, some good, some bad, so I appreciate the uncertainty that someone may have just getting into this area. In the end, it will be very subjective and most people will find their own paths, just like anything else tone related. It's nice to hear where people have landed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 10:17:55 GMT -6
Hmm that's odd, there's a lot of glowing reviews on the Two Notes Live. Disclaimer here, I've worked with a guitarist who had two notes equipment but I've never used one myself.. I have the Suhr Reactive w/ Ownhammer IR's as stated above.. Then again my first LB / IR sim was a Palmer PDI something or other which received much praise and I couldn't stand the thing. YMMV rings true as always and nowadays I don't often trust reviews unless it's from someone I know with similar tastes (which is most people on RGO of course ).
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Post by Guitar on May 3, 2021 10:28:18 GMT -6
I have to be a little bit fair about the Two Notes to balance my review. It's totally fine with clean amps. Good even. But when the amp gets crunchy, listen very carefully. Maybe it just doesn't get along with my Marshall, don't know. But I've heard what I heard in other people's recordings also. Once you hear it, you can't unhear it, sort of thing. You can take my review with a grain of salt but that's my experience.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 3, 2021 11:09:42 GMT -6
Yes, the IRs are created with different mics, angles, etc, so you browse through them and see what sounds good. I’ll have (usually) a 57 and a Royer 121 on two tracks, like I do when I mic an amp. I monitor the IRs with a Strymon Iridium, so no DAW buffer/latency. But the raw Suhr RL is what I actually record so that I can mess with the IRs as much as I want in the DAW. If I didn’t already have the Iridium, I’d have gotten the version of the Suhr that hosts IRs itself. I have pretty much the same set up after a lot of buying and selling other products. Suhr reactive IR, Ownhammers. I have the Suhr IR but sometimes I use the Iridium because I like the room sound. I don't often use it for actual recording but I find it much more pleasant for silent practicing, It's a little less in your face which is nice when playing hours on end with headphones. When recording I always record the IR and the unfiltered if I want to mess with other cabs in the computer. And I also thought it sounded much better than the OX for my tastes. It's one of the best guitar purchases I've ever made.
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