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Post by Ward on Mar 12, 2021 6:40:34 GMT -6
It is not my first choice for an accordion, banjo and cowbell trio. A KM84 is fabulous on 5-string banjo, as long as you keep it away from your picking hand. Then the capture gets a bit clacky . . . and way too banjo-y.
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Post by ab101 on Mar 12, 2021 9:47:37 GMT -6
It all depends what sound someone is after and the blend. For instance, on a mandolin solo - I love ribbon mics as it can really bring out the wood of the instrument- but it is not bluegrass. As to the cowbell - it will also depend on how "warm" the cowbell was desired in the context of the mix (assuming any cowbell can be warm ) Ribbons can be great on cowbell as well, once again, depending on the sound one wants. The bottom line, is that one can survive without a KM84 very nicely these days. And if one has one, it is a great mic and very versatile. As to banjo - I really do not know, so I will take Ward's word for it, though that does not mean the minute a banjo comes into my studio - that I am going to feel the need to buy a KM84.
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 12, 2021 9:49:06 GMT -6
I don’t get the Chinese capsule apologizing and current Neumann worship either. They’re riding on past laurels. If you judged Neumann’s current mic offerings on their real quality and value, then Neumann would be almost as toast as Sennheiser’s consumer headphones division. The Shure KSM 137 and 141 and the Beyerdynamic MC930 are cheaper, sound better, and more useful in the real world than Neumann’s current SDCs and any SDC that uses a Chinese capsule. A big +1 on the KSM141 love. I don't quite get why they're so overlooked. I'm not saying they're better than or a replacement for anything else; I just think they're fine mics in their own right. -09
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 12, 2021 9:59:05 GMT -6
Of course it's the skills that really matter when engineering great sounding records, but this is a gear forum, and we're here to nitpick the sounds of gear. I don't think KM84s are over-rated one bit. I think they're rated just right. I'd say the 184s are way underrated, probably just because they are Neumanns with the number "84" in the model. I remember when I was starting out, I was in a control room while an acoustic guitar was being recorded, and as soon as I heard the sound come out of the speakers, I said, "Holy shit what mic is that?!" KM84 was the answer. I hadn't heard of it yet, but it sounded so much better than any other mic I had used or heard on acoustic to that point. As the years went on, I'v had a chance to try 84s on a bunch of other instruments in a bunch of other scenarios and they've always sounded glorious. I bought a pair of KM184s about 15 years ago. They didn't sound as good as 84s but they sounded awesome and I made a ton of awesome recordings with them. I ended up selling them eventually for non-gear/music related reasons. I've gone through other pairs of SDCs. Right now I've got a pair of the much RGO-loved Soyuz FETs. They're okay I guess, but they ain't as good as 84s. I actually blind picked the 184 in the SDC someone posted here on RGO recently, even picked it over the Soyuz. I'd love to own a pair of 84s but the price has always been prohibitive for me and the used gear market is completely irrational right now. I might circle back to the 184s, which are still the second-best SDCs I've ever used. Agreed for the most part. I had a KM184 pair for years and loved them. I've never used a KM84, so I don't know how close/not close the 184s were to an 84, but that wasn't the point; nor did I care. They were fine mics and I liked their sound very much. It's possible that saying the 184 isn't as good as an 84 isn't entirely fair. Would it be more accurate to say that the 184 doesn't sound like an 84, but is still a fine mic in its own right? I wonder if folks are expecting an exact copy due to the 84 in the 184's nomenclature. Just a thought. YMMV. Flame suit. Etc. -09
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 12, 2021 10:28:47 GMT -6
Of course it's the skills that really matter when engineering great sounding records, but this is a gear forum, and we're here to nitpick the sounds of gear. I don't think KM84s are over-rated one bit. I think they're rated just right. I'd say the 184s are way underrated, probably just because they are Neumanns with the number "84" in the model. I remember when I was starting out, I was in a control room while an acoustic guitar was being recorded, and as soon as I heard the sound come out of the speakers, I said, "Holy shit what mic is that?!" KM84 was the answer. I hadn't heard of it yet, but it sounded so much better than any other mic I had used or heard on acoustic to that point. As the years went on, I'v had a chance to try 84s on a bunch of other instruments in a bunch of other scenarios and they've always sounded glorious. I bought a pair of KM184s about 15 years ago. They didn't sound as good as 84s but they sounded awesome and I made a ton of awesome recordings with them. I ended up selling them eventually for non-gear/music related reasons. I've gone through other pairs of SDCs. Right now I've got a pair of the much RGO-loved Soyuz FETs. They're okay I guess, but they ain't as good as 84s. I actually blind picked the 184 in the SDC someone posted here on RGO recently, even picked it over the Soyuz. I'd love to own a pair of 84s but the price has always been prohibitive for me and the used gear market is completely irrational right now. I might circle back to the 184s, which are still the second-best SDCs I've ever used. Agreed for the most part. I had a KM184 pair for years and loved them. I've never used a KM84, so I don't know how close/not close the 184s were to an 84, but that wasn't the point; nor did I care. They were fine mics and I liked their sound very much. It's possible that saying the 184 isn't as good as an 84 isn't entirely fair. Would it be more accurate to say that the 184 doesn't sound like an 84, but is still a fine mic in its own right? I wonder if folks are expecting an exact copy due to the 84 in the 184's nomenclature. Just a thought. YMMV. Flame suit. Etc. -09 The biggest difference is the off axis performance I know broadcast guys who love the 84 and hate the 184 for that alone. One guy who does orchestral one offs said the thing with the 84 is you put it up on a stand and never worry about where it’s pointed it’s just going to sound good.
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Post by Ward on Mar 12, 2021 11:05:50 GMT -6
The biggest difference is the off axis performance I know broadcast guys who love the 84 and hate the 184 for that alone. One guy who does orchestral one offs said the thing with the 84 is you put it up on a stand and never worry about where it’s pointed it’s just going to sound good. The biggest plus for the 184? Lower self-noise. And reciprocally, that's a minus for the 84.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 12, 2021 12:11:04 GMT -6
The biggest difference is the off axis performance I know broadcast guys who love the 84 and hate the 184 for that alone. One guy who does orchestral one offs said the thing with the 84 is you put it up on a stand and never worry about where it’s pointed it’s just going to sound good. The biggest plus for the 184? Lower self-noise. And reciprocally, that's a minus for the 84. Yeah your absolutely right, but if I’m doing a orchestral one off the time saved by just being able to put up say 20-30 mics out weights the noise. Besides we don’t call it noise anymore it’s dither built into the mic😁
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 14, 2021 7:33:29 GMT -6
The biggest difference is the off axis performance I know broadcast guys who love the 84 and hate the 184 for that alone. One guy who does orchestral one offs said the thing with the 84 is you put it up on a stand and never worry about where it’s pointed it’s just going to sound good. That is absolutely true! Before I got KM84s I was using Joly-modded Oktavas. They were fine, but only because I spent ages fine-tuning the distance and position to record acoustic guitars with them. And I didn't like them for overheads at all, even a X/Y pair sounded phasey. With the KM84 I just eyeball a position and record away. Instant "sounds like the records you own" acoustic guitar sound. Also I know it's going to work 99% of the time on any given instrument. Sure, I can try to fine tune the mic position, and I do sometimes, but it's a whole different game.
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Post by srb on Mar 14, 2021 11:11:24 GMT -6
It is not my first choice for an accordion, banjo and cowbell trio. I have (secretly, until now) harbored a desire to produce a Slayer cover tunes album with banjo, accordion, bagpipes, and steel drums.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 14, 2021 11:15:55 GMT -6
Kind of funny that the thread title is "... Another KM84 clone" you can read that a few different ways.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 14, 2021 14:51:37 GMT -6
If off axis pattern control was the winning thing, that would negate any clone or tribute from making the grade, since it’s perceived to be an “impossible” thing to replicate.
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Post by ab101 on Mar 14, 2021 15:12:04 GMT -6
Will a Schoeps with an mk22 (little wider cardioid) capsule accomplish this easy positioning advantage of the KM84? It is hard for me to believe that there is not one mic made today that can compete. And if there is not, then we need a petitioning campaign to Neumann!
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 14, 2021 15:16:36 GMT -6
I have to work pretty hard to put my Gefell M295s in a BAD spot. I can’t say if they can match the Km84 but they are great mics.
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Post by woofhead on Mar 14, 2021 23:39:53 GMT -6
I feel the same way about my gefell m930 pair- off axis is great like the km84.Ive never compared these mics directly I want to try that
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Post by svart on Mar 15, 2021 11:11:48 GMT -6
If off axis pattern control was the winning thing, that would negate any clone or tribute from making the grade, since it’s perceived to be an “impossible” thing to replicate. Some would argue that none do make the grade. Anyway, the thing that makes the off-axis pickup so good in the KM84 is the cross-cut backplate, which is shared with the KM184 and the KM100 series so in theory either one of those should be as good off-axis. Makes me wonder if a small bleed capacitance at the FET interface on a KM184 would soften the top end a little and make it more 84-like.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 15, 2021 11:38:31 GMT -6
Anyway, the thing that makes the off-axis pickup so good in the KM84 is the cross-cut backplate, which is shared with the KM184 and the KM100 series so in theory either one of those should be as good off-axis. Bingo!
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Post by stratboy on Mar 15, 2021 12:18:28 GMT -6
Kind of funny that the thread title is "... Another KM84 clone" you can read that a few different ways. I didn’t have anything particular in mind when I titled the thread. I had just come across the micparts kit and wanted to know what others thought of it. I like that the thread has gone in several directions since then; I’ve learned a lot. I love my KM84; it’s worth the money I paid for it, IMO. I can easily capture a good acoustic guitar sound, which is my main use for it. I imagine that when other musicians can come into my space again, I will get satisfying results on dobro, mandolin and other acoustic instruments as well. Mine came originally with a KM85 cap which rolls off in the bass and I’m told is good for vocals. I haven’t tried that application yet. I got my KM84 cap from B&H last fall.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 15, 2021 12:43:15 GMT -6
Kind of funny that the thread title is "... Another KM84 clone" you can read that a few different ways. I didn’t have anything particular in mind when I titled the thread. I had just come across the micparts kit and wanted to know what others thought of it. I like that the thread has gone in several directions since then; I’ve learned a lot. I love my KM84; it’s worth the money I paid for it, IMO. I can easily capture a good acoustic guitar sound, which is my main use for it. I imagine that when other musicians can come into my space again, I will get satisfying results on dobro, mandolin and other acoustic instruments as well. Mine came originally with a KM85 cap which rolls off in the bass and I’m told is good for vocals. I haven’t tried that application yet. I got my KM84 cap from B&H last fall. Have you tried them on drum overheads? Anyone with KM84? For me that's kind of a dream fantasy, something I have to put on my bucket's list.
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Post by brenta on Mar 15, 2021 12:48:49 GMT -6
I didn’t have anything particular in mind when I titled the thread. I had just come across the micparts kit and wanted to know what others thought of it. I like that the thread has gone in several directions since then; I’ve learned a lot. I love my KM84; it’s worth the money I paid for it, IMO. I can easily capture a good acoustic guitar sound, which is my main use for it. I imagine that when other musicians can come into my space again, I will get satisfying results on dobro, mandolin and other acoustic instruments as well. Mine came originally with a KM85 cap which rolls off in the bass and I’m told is good for vocals. I haven’t tried that application yet. I got my KM84 cap from B&H last fall. Have you tried them on drum overheads? Anyone with KM84? For me that's kind of a dream fantasy, something I have to put on my bucket's list. Yes, I've used them extensively on overheads, and they are by far my favorite SDC to use there. My favorite LDCs on overheads are 414EBs. My advice is to not try either of those because it will leave you unsatisfied with the sounds you get on overheads for the rest of your life or until you spend thousands on those mics.
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