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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 9:18:41 GMT -6
Slightly off-topic, but I wonder if anyone's had direct experience comparing the 84 to the KM140. I've never had hands on an 84 (did have a few Octava loaners many years ago). But I've had a matched set of 140s for about 30 years. I suspect the sonics are related, but I do wonder exactly how. The KM100 series was discontinued quite a while back. They were modular, with 3-4 different capsules. I know that friends complained the threads were easily stripped when swapping capsules, but the cardioids are all I've ever had for these mics. I've mainly used them in ORTF configuration, and the off-axis response is superb.
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Post by svart on Mar 11, 2021 10:04:29 GMT -6
Slightly off-topic, but I wonder if anyone's had direct experience comparing the 84 to the KM140. I've never had hands on an 84 (did have a few Octava loaners many years ago). But I've had a matched set of 140s for about 30 years. I suspect the sonics are related, but I do wonder exactly how. The KM100 series was discontinued quite a while back. They were modular, with 3-4 different capsules. I know that friends complained the threads were easily stripped when swapping capsules, but the cardioids are all I've ever had for these mics. I've mainly used them in ORTF configuration, and the off-axis response is superb. I haven't, but I did look at the 100 series a while back when I came across a set for decent price but never bought into them after some deliberation. Seems the internet opinion is similar to the KM184/km84 comparisons. Some people think they're clearly better. Some people think the opposite. Some can't tell the difference. Based on that distribution, I don't think there's any reason to worry that you're missing out on anything.
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Post by Mister Chase on Mar 11, 2021 10:44:38 GMT -6
Why not just buy a Soyuz 0-13 FET? It's like a KM84 completely modernized. More gain, less noise, but it really has a similar mojo. It's not trying to be a clone, it's more like an upgraded KM84 and stands on its own merits. When tracking something important, I borrow my friend's KM84's. If they weren't available, the Soyuz is my next choice. Occasionally I'd choose it first. It's all hand made, no Chinese parts nonsense. Another friend just did some tracks with it. I didn't know he'd bought it and commented that it was the best acoustic guitar sound he's ever gotten. He's done 7 albums. I have a pair and while they certainly aren't the same sound they are incredible in their own right. Sweet sounding, detailed and just lovely in the midrange. That and my Bomblet knock me out. Great mics. I can't wait to get a tube pair.
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Post by drumsound on Mar 11, 2021 10:58:38 GMT -6
I’m sick of both hardware AND software clones that always say something along the lines of “It’s an EXACT copy of the legendary XYZ except we’ve added (or removed) a transformer and there is a sligh HF bump the original didn’t have AND instead of A it does B... it’s LITERALLY a legend reborn” 🙄 I much prefer for manufactures to say (and operate) in the vane of "inspired by the legendary..."
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Post by ab101 on Mar 11, 2021 11:23:52 GMT -6
I see a trend in forums that is something along the lines of: The grass is greener on the other side." It is usually about some mic, pre, whatever, that is no longer made, and is incredibly awesome. Then there are a number of posts as to whether this or that sounds as good as the item no longer made. Then there is a search for that equivalency.
Meanwhile, earthly life has its limits, including time. And there are a ton of mics, pres, etc. out there. Maybe the most awesome piece of gear that everyone will be writing about 30 years from now because it is no longer produced, is something that is available today.
What is the clone for my audio-scape opto? The D-comp? What is the clone for my Upton 251? My Undertone 4 ch pre? My Schoeps? Who cares? I have them and people can get them today. But 30 years from now, someone may care.
A lot of time should be invested, in my humble opinion, on what is out there today, which provides critical support to manufacturers and dealers today who are at financial risk trying to serve the pro audio community, take the time to assist customers with questions so they can make the best purchase choices and the best ways to use the gear, and stand by for warranty services, etc., when they would be better off in stable financial careers.
Cheers!
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Post by Guitar on Mar 11, 2021 11:23:53 GMT -6
I think all of the Mic Parts stuff is overpriced, that's my main niggle with the brand. For that money, you're just shy of a used KM184, which I would place a wild guess is a superior microphone, due to the REAL Neumann capsule. Do you mean a stock Oktava MC012 or a Jolly mod one compares close to a km 84 in that type of placement scenario ?
Joly modded. But from what I've heard, the NEWER stock 012's implemented a lot of the Joly mods. Can't confirm that for myself though. Mine are older, and Joly modded. The Oktava mics from the past 5-10 years or so have all of the Scott Dorsey mods in them, coming from the factory this way. These mods were published for free in the Tape Op magazine I believe. Not sure how Michael Joly or Bill Sitler's electronics mods differ from the classic Scott Dorsey mods, although there are bound to be some minor differences.
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Post by superwack on Mar 11, 2021 11:40:58 GMT -6
I’m sick of both hardware AND software clones that always say something along the lines of “It’s an EXACT copy of the legendary XYZ except we’ve added (or removed) a transformer and there is a sligh HF bump the original didn’t have AND instead of A it does B... it’s LITERALLY a legend reborn” 🙄 I much prefer for manufactures to say (and operate) in the vane of "inspired by the legendary..." Agreed or even better just make an awesome mic and if the unwashed masses want to anoint it as "the closest mic to the KM84 on this or any planet" so be it! Also It drives me extra bananas when manufacturers name something with a "classic" number 87/73/84/76/800G etc. then pop their monocles over the outrageous suggestion people assume it was meant to be anything even similar to an 87/73/84/76/800G!
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Post by mcirish on Mar 11, 2021 11:47:56 GMT -6
Just to clarify, I did the mods to the Oktava mics I have. Based the changes on the Dorsey mods. The change is not night and day but did improve them. A bit clearer. I got mine in 1999 or 2000. I bought 10 and kept the best pair. It's good to hear that the new ones already have the changes. Honestly, I think they should be more popular than they are. I know some look down on them as the builds were a bit messy early on, but there is no denying the capsules sound good. For my uses, they work in the places I use a KM84; close mic acoustic instruments.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 11, 2021 12:10:21 GMT -6
I find the whole km84 worship thing amusing... they've been discontinued for a couple decades now. It's like romancing the dead. Oddly strange. I'd like to think as a world that we've moved on from there but apparently not.
At the same time I'm not sure a $400 DIY mic kit is progress. The generic China body doesn't exactly inspire confidence...
There's nothing really wrong with China capsules except that there's zero consistency.
Quite a few hi fi mic builders use China capsules, but they get a batch of 500 and pick 50. When Oliver did the TAB km84 for Mercenary those had China capsules and I think he went through 1000 to find 250 that met spec..?
Which makes you stop and wonder, where do all those rejected capsules end up? They're not going back to the wholesalers in China that's for sure.
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Post by Mister Chase on Mar 11, 2021 13:25:30 GMT -6
I see a trend in forums that is something along the lines of: The grass is greener on the other side." It is usually about some mic, pre, whatever, that is no longer made, and is incredibly awesome. Then there are a number of posts as to whether this or that sounds as good as the item no longer made. Then there is a search for that equivalency. Meanwhile, earthly life has its limits, including time. And there are a ton of mics, pres, etc. out there. Maybe the most awesome piece of gear that everyone will be writing about 30 years from now because it is no longer produced, is something that is available today. What is the clone for my audio-scape opto? The D-comp? What is the clone for my Upton 251? My Undertone 4 ch pre? My Schoeps? Who cares? I have them and people can get them today. But 30 years from now, someone may care. A lot of time should be invested, in my humble opinion, on what is out there today, which provides critical support to manufacturers and dealers today who are at financial risk trying to serve the pro audio community, take the time to assist customers with questions so they can make the best purchase choices and the best ways to use the gear, and stand by for warranty services, etc., when they would be better off in stable financial careers. Cheers! I tend to agree with this and have pondered this very thing. There are great tools right now. And lets be honest, what many of us love about recordings we've heard with this gear we lust after is the rooms, playing, arrangements etc. I pull up sounds I get with my Soyuz mics and TLM170s and really can't imagine liking anything more. However, budget condensers? Usually yes. But the mics I really enjoy, Beyer m160s, AEA r84, Soyuz... they aren't crazy expensive and they are readily available. Placed right in a good room, it's really all up to the instruments and playing.
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Post by ragan on Mar 11, 2021 13:41:42 GMT -6
I think a lot of the gear fetishism comes from people needing to believe that if they only had certain magical, celebrated tools, their music/productions would sound like the records they idolize. It's a simpler, more exciting narrative than the difficult, fundamental truth: you're not as talented or experienced as the musicians and engineers who made those records.
From my experience, accepting those truths, getting some quality, workable tools and getting the hell to work learning how better to use them yields immensely better results than endless cycles of gearlust tail-chasing.
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Post by svart on Mar 11, 2021 13:48:39 GMT -6
I think a lot of the gear fetishism comes from people needing to believe that if they only had certain magical, celebrated tools, their music/productions would sound like the records they idolize. It's a simpler, more exciting narrative than the difficult, fundamental truth: you're not as talented or experienced as the musicians and engineers who made those records. From my experience, accepting those truths, getting some quality, workable tools and getting the hell to work learning how better to use them yields immensely better results than endless cycles of gearlust tail-chasing. If you need a ton of A/B tests, frequency charts and online opinions to tell the difference between two mics, then the difference isn't enough to warrant any worry. It's either a clear difference to everyone, or you're probably just grasping for magic wands.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 14:28:47 GMT -6
I find the whole km84 worship thing amusing... they've been discontinued for a couple decades now. It's like romancing the dead. Oddly strange. I'd like to think as a world that we've moved on from there but apparently not. At the same time I'm not sure a $400 DIY mic kit is progress. The generic China body doesn't exactly inspire confidence... There's nothing really wrong with China capsules except that there's zero consistency. Quite a few hi fi mic builders use China capsules, but they get a batch of 500 and pick 50. When Oliver did the TAB km84 for Mercenary those had China capsules and I think he went through 1000 to find 250 that met spec..? Which makes you stop and wonder, where do all those rejected capsules end up? They're not going back to the wholesalers in China that's for sure. I don’t get the Chinese capsule apologizing and current Neumann worship either. They’re riding on past laurels. If you judged Neumann’s current mic offerings on their real quality and value, then Neumann would be almost as toast as Sennheiser’s consumer headphones division. The Shure KSM 137 and 141 and the Beyerdynamic MC930 are cheaper, sound better, and more useful in the real world than Neumann’s current SDCs and any SDC that uses a Chinese capsule.
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Post by Mister Chase on Mar 11, 2021 14:41:55 GMT -6
I think a lot of the gear fetishism comes from people needing to believe that if they only had certain magical, celebrated tools, their music/productions would sound like the records they idolize. It's a simpler, more exciting narrative than the difficult, fundamental truth: you're not as talented or experienced as the musicians and engineers who made those records. From my experience, accepting those truths, getting some quality, workable tools and getting the hell to work learning how better to use them yields immensely better results than endless cycles of gearlust tail-chasing. and I might add, "not as hard working". A lot of these people are extremely vigilant in their daily routine and hours in.
Totally right. I am very lucky to have had a mentor in my very first years of recording with just a Shure PG57 and Behringer mixer into my sound card. He made sure to emphasize that the things that mattered most are the performance and arrangement. It set me on the path of being a better musician and writer as well as gauging more accurately how gear affects the outcome. It matters, but you have to try and quantify how much within your own narrative.
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Post by brenta on Mar 11, 2021 15:29:26 GMT -6
The Shure KSM 137 and 141 and the Beyerdynamic MC930 are cheaper, sound better, and more useful in the real world than Neumann’s current SDCs and any SDC that uses a Chinese capsule. It's all subjective of course, but I strongly disagree that those mics sound better than a KM184. And are you claiming that KM184s use Chinese capsules?
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Post by brenta on Mar 11, 2021 15:40:54 GMT -6
Of course it's the skills that really matter when engineering great sounding records, but this is a gear forum, and we're here to nitpick the sounds of gear. I don't think KM84s are over-rated one bit. I think they're rated just right. I'd say the 184s are way underrated, probably just because they are Neumanns with the number "84" in the model.
I remember when I was starting out, I was in a control room while an acoustic guitar was being recorded, and as soon as I heard the sound come out of the speakers, I said, "Holy shit what mic is that?!" KM84 was the answer. I hadn't heard of it yet, but it sounded so much better than any other mic I had used or heard on acoustic to that point. As the years went on, I'v had a chance to try 84s on a bunch of other instruments in a bunch of other scenarios and they've always sounded glorious.
I bought a pair of KM184s about 15 years ago. They didn't sound as good as 84s but they sounded awesome and I made a ton of awesome recordings with them. I ended up selling them eventually for non-gear/music related reasons.
I've gone through other pairs of SDCs. Right now I've got a pair of the much RGO-loved Soyuz FETs. They're okay I guess, but they ain't as good as 84s. I actually blind picked the 184 in the SDC someone posted here on RGO recently, even picked it over the Soyuz. I'd love to own a pair of 84s but the price has always been prohibitive for me and the used gear market is completely irrational right now. I might circle back to the 184s, which are still the second-best SDCs I've ever used.
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 11, 2021 16:01:42 GMT -6
I think a lot of the gear fetishism comes from people needing to believe that if they only had certain magical, celebrated tools, their music/productions would sound like the records they idolize. It's a simpler, more exciting narrative than the difficult, fundamental truth: you're not as talented or experienced as the musicians and engineers who made those records. Hey! I resemble that remark!
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Post by ragan on Mar 11, 2021 16:02:23 GMT -6
I think a lot of the gear fetishism comes from people needing to believe that if they only had certain magical, celebrated tools, their music/productions would sound like the records they idolize. It's a simpler, more exciting narrative than the difficult, fundamental truth: you're not as talented or experienced as the musicians and engineers who made those records. Hey! I resemble that remark! So do I
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 11, 2021 17:34:53 GMT -6
Why the KM84 worship? Well other than a kick drum what would it suck at? Think about it we valued mics just on usefulness it would be worth more than U47 or C12. You can still get parts from Neumann and here is the biggie it’s the affordable holy grail. Unless you go Omni you can’t get the off axis consistentcy of an 84.
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Post by svart on Mar 11, 2021 17:54:53 GMT -6
Why the KM84 worship? Well other than a kick drum what would it suck at? Think about it we valued mics just on usefulness it would be worth more than U47 or C12. You can still get parts from Neumann and here is the biggie it’s the affordable holy grail. Unless you go Omni you can’t get the off axis consistentcy of an 84. I know someone who used one on kick. Sounded great, lol.
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Post by ab101 on Mar 11, 2021 18:00:25 GMT -6
It is not my first choice for an accordion, banjo and cowbell trio.
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 11, 2021 18:03:49 GMT -6
I much prefer for manufactures to say (and operate) in the vane of "inspired by the legendary..." Agreed or even better just make an awesome mic and if the unwashed masses want to anoint it as "the closest mic to the KM84 on this or any planet" so be it! Also It drives me extra bananas when manufacturers name something with a "classic" number 87/73/84/76/800G etc. then pop their monocles over the outrageous suggestion people assume it was meant to be anything even similar to an 87/73/84/76/800G! Quoted just because I imagined Colonel Klink from Hogans Heroes and it made me literally snort.
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Post by superwack on Mar 11, 2021 18:15:25 GMT -6
NEUMANN!!!
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2021 21:53:09 GMT -6
NEUMANN!!!
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 12, 2021 1:16:14 GMT -6
It is not my first choice for an accordion, banjo and cowbell trio. I’ve used it on two out of those three with great results
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