|
Post by jmoose on Mar 8, 2021 19:25:55 GMT -6
Another factor in pricing is the 800 pound gorilla nobodies metioned... the P word.
Pirate.
Obviously some people don't want to deal with cracked goods but thinking of software pricing over the years... I remember when Waves SSL pack was new and $700.
Now that's a $29 plug which, you gotta wonder how & why it ended up there.
Add to that is legacy systems. How many have said, well version 7 still does what I need why do I need to spend $500 on v9? I've had that debate with myself countless times over the years.
|
|
|
Post by sopwith on Mar 8, 2021 19:57:18 GMT -6
My business is subscription enterprise software, so I sympathise with Izotope here - having everyone on the same product release version greatly alleviates the support desk burden. Plus the dependable recurring subscription revenue is great (for the company, not necessarily for their users).
That said - I will probably jump on this upgrade offer to the latest perpetual license Ozone, Neutron, RX, Nectar, and then call it a day with Izotope upgrades for good.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2021 21:00:14 GMT -6
Another factor in pricing is the 800 pound gorilla nobodies metioned... the P word. Pirate. Obviously some people don't want to deal with cracked goods but thinking of software pricing over the years... I remember when Waves SSL pack was new and $700. Now that's a $29 plug which, you gotta wonder how & why it ended up there. Add to that is legacy systems. How many have said, well version 7 still does what I need why do I need to spend $500 on v9? I've had that debate with myself countless times over the years. The problem is people who’ve always stolen music steal plugins. Electronic music requires no gear purchases so many producers are not even in the mental mindset of paying. Sonnox, Uhe, and Tokyo Dawn GE versions are still pretty much unpirateable thus rare sales. Uhe has time bombs in the plugins while Sonnox hasn’t been messed with since the 32-bit days. SSL, Relab, and LiquidSonics just had massive sales after being cracked last year. The only ways are timebombs and dongles. UAD cards are glorified dongles. I guess developers could write something ironclad and harsh in the click through to use the plugin and sue people who made money using pirated plugs.
|
|
|
Post by srb on Mar 8, 2021 21:15:15 GMT -6
I read just today that Steinberg is dropping the dongle. New coding for anti-piracy, I'd imagine?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2021 21:33:16 GMT -6
I read just today that Steinberg is dropping the dongle. New coding for anti-piracy, I'd imagine? Steinberg stuck mouse routines on the e-licenser. The ultimate anti-piracy.
|
|
|
Post by srb on Mar 8, 2021 21:40:27 GMT -6
I read just today that Steinberg is dropping the dongle. New coding for anti-piracy, I'd imagine? Steinberg stuck mouse routines on the e-licenser. The ultimate anti-piracy. 😃 I know that one!
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Mar 9, 2021 10:02:44 GMT -6
I fully understand WHY they need to go to subscription but I don't have to like it or support it. I'd prefer it to be a maintenance agreement like they do in the IT world. You buy the product and you pay for a maintenance contract each year. That gives you all the latest versions and also allows you to contact support. But, if you decide not to renew the agreement, the product continues to work. You just can't get updates or support. Even then, I have a hard time with it, but at least it's better than Adobe, where when you stop paying, you can't use the products anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Mar 9, 2021 10:13:05 GMT -6
I think even a Waves WUP style plan would be better than a subscription, even though people would hate that too. At least it wouldn't be a subscription.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 9, 2021 10:46:01 GMT -6
"Streaming" is just sillyConMan vallee newspeak for subscription. The RIAA failed to jump on copy protection because it wasn't "kewl" so here we are.
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Mar 9, 2021 11:12:17 GMT -6
I don't know what the answer is...but I know I can't afford a Waves, UAD, Goodhertz, AVID, Steinberg, Fabfilter, Crave, Izotope, Plug Alliance, Logic (and the list goes on to about 30 more companies) subscriptions. If so, I'd have to narrow it down to about five. Or - just pay for hardware once and be done with it. This is the crux of the matter. If and when I'm ever forced to go subscription, because that's the way everyone has gone, I too would limit it to just UAD and a few others. I've purposefully been limiting myself on new plugin purchases in recent years. How many plugins does one really need? Improvements from one year to the next seem to be incremental these days, plus I have a lot of hardware now. So maybe limitations on the number of plugins available to me, due to subscription-incurred selectivity, wouldn't be all bad. Just pick from plugins available from two or three subscriptions and get on with it. But I still don't like subscriptions...
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Mar 9, 2021 11:16:04 GMT -6
I read just today that Steinberg is dropping the dongle. New coding for anti-piracy, I'd imagine? Steinberg stuck mouse routines on the e-licenser. The ultimate anti-piracy. Is this like the old days of Nintendo? I remember where you could get 100 extra lives or something like that if you used the controller to press up, up, A, B, A, B, select, start, down, down, left, right. Or something like that.
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Mar 9, 2021 11:18:39 GMT -6
Another factor in pricing is the 800 pound gorilla nobodies metioned... the P word. Pirate. Obviously some people don't want to deal with cracked goods but thinking of software pricing over the years... I remember when Waves SSL pack was new and $700. Now that's a $29 plug which, you gotta wonder how & why it ended up there. Add to that is legacy systems. How many have said, well version 7 still does what I need why do I need to spend $500 on v9? I've had that debate with myself countless times over the years. The problem is people who’ve always stolen music steal plugins. Electronic music requires no gear purchases so many producers are not even in the mental mindset of paying. Sonnox, Uhe, and Tokyo Dawn GE versions are still pretty much unpirateable thus rare sales. Uhe has time bombs in the plugins while Sonnox hasn’t been messed with since the 32-bit days. SSL, Relab, and LiquidSonics just had massive sales after being cracked last year. The only ways are timebombs and dongles. UAD cards are glorified dongles. I guess developers could write something ironclad and harsh in the click through to use the plugin and sue people who made money using pirated plugs. Which brings up an interesting thought. Which is better? Dongles or subscriptions? UAD hardware requirements (dongle) might be what helps to keep UAD from ever going subscription.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2021 11:55:16 GMT -6
I read just today that Steinberg is dropping the dongle. New coding for anti-piracy, I'd imagine? Steinberg stuck mouse routines on the e-licenser. The ultimate anti-piracy. What does that mean?
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
|
Post by ericn on Mar 9, 2021 12:56:30 GMT -6
Hey guys, Please allow a longtime developer (now fully retired) to weigh in on this. When I founded Exponential Audio, I built several years of support into my product pricing. I was able to fulfill that obligation, but it really became a chore. Lots of things would weigh into that burden--some peculiarity in Studio One, an incompatibility in WaveLab, control surface support in Pro tools, security work. The list is nearly endless. By the time I put the company into iZotope's hands, I had perhaps 10% of my time (usually 70 hour weeks) available for any creative or feature work. With the exception of a few contractors that did PR, etc, I did this all myself. In order to balance that load, I'd have had to bring in 2 or 3 more full-time people. That would have obliged me to deal with alll sorts of new regulations and to convert myself into a manager. I'd have lost myself as a developer for at least a few years anyway. And--this is the key thing--I'd have had to pay for that new structure in some way. I am quite sure that I'd have instituted a subscription model myself by now. This is true whether I'd continued as a one-man shop or had decided to follow a more traditional structure. So don't consider this as a particular defense of iZotope. They don't really need any defending. Except for small startup developers (like I used to be) subscriptions will be the way most audio software companies keep the lights on and keep inventing new stuff. Unless you've made and supported a plugin over a period of years, you'd likely be surprised at the amount of work that has to happen to keep it working smoothly over Mac/Win, multiple generations of O/S and a couple dozen popular DAWs. I think the plugin 'industry' has been based on a growth model for a long time--new sales pay for support of old products. But as the industry has matured, most everyone faces the fact that growth is not infinite. So exactly how DO you pay for a healthy balance of innovation and product support? We all face the choice of how current we need to stay in our computers, DAWs, plugins, operating systems and so on. I now must make many of those decisions myself. Getting as many years as possible out of an older computer and freezing all updates is certainly a legitimate choice. With some care, that solution can work for many years. Reducing the menagerie of plugins to your most important set is also a decent notion. But it's a hard truth that supporting DAWs, drivers, plugins is painstaking and expensive work. That's the basic reality of the matter. Michael thanks for your perspective, most people have no idea the costs involved in building a company.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
|
Post by ericn on Mar 9, 2021 13:17:10 GMT -6
You could say the same for cable/streaming media. When all these subscriptions cost more than a one-stop cable sub, then I'll just go back to cable. The thing is, and this goes back to the original Waves bundles, every major plugin developer wants to be your primary plugin vendor. It’s not about the individual plugin, it’s about selling you their eco system. The subscription model is a great source of steady cash flow for the developers, but they have to deliver the goods in both quality and quantity. In a subscription world it makes no sense to just buy a script for someone’s Neve 1084 because it’s the best recreation, you have to be able to justify the cost of buying in whole hog. Imagine all the subscriptions a modern mix room would need to have? One of the original selling points of going ITB was the cost savings, not anymore. The developers are going to find a lot more pressure to keep everything up to date, bug free and continue to develop new product. Every time someone’s renewal window comes around they are going to examine the costs of that subscription, a major bug or problem that isn’t fixed quickly enough could very easily kill a company. We will probably see a round of consolidation ( it’s cheaper and quicker to buy rather than build) then all sorts of indie developers setting up shop then more consolidation.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
|
Post by ericn on Mar 9, 2021 13:18:27 GMT -6
The problem is people who’ve always stolen music steal plugins. Electronic music requires no gear purchases so many producers are not even in the mental mindset of paying. Sonnox, Uhe, and Tokyo Dawn GE versions are still pretty much unpirateable thus rare sales. Uhe has time bombs in the plugins while Sonnox hasn’t been messed with since the 32-bit days. SSL, Relab, and LiquidSonics just had massive sales after being cracked last year. The only ways are timebombs and dongles. UAD cards are glorified dongles. I guess developers could write something ironclad and harsh in the click through to use the plugin and sue people who made money using pirated plugs. Which brings up an interesting thought. Which is better? Dongles or subscriptions? UAD hardware requirements (dongle) might be what helps to keep UAD from ever going subscription. Your probably going to see a world of both.
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Mar 9, 2021 13:47:27 GMT -6
You could say the same for cable/streaming media. When all these subscriptions cost more than a one-stop cable sub, then I'll just go back to cable. The thing is, and this goes back to the original Waves bundles, every major plugin developer wants to be your primary plugin vendor. It’s not about the individual plugin, it’s about selling you their eco system. The subscription model is a great source of steady cash flow for the developers, but they have to deliver the goods in both quality and quantity. In a subscription world it makes no sense to just buy a script for someone’s Neve 1084 because it’s the best recreation, you have to be able to justify the cost of buying in whole hog. Imagine all the subscriptions a modern mix room would need to have? One of the original selling points of going ITB was the cost savings, not anymore. The developers are going to find a lot more pressure to keep everything up to date, bug free and continue to develop new product. Every time someone’s renewal window comes around they are going to examine the costs of that subscription, a major bug or problem that isn’t fixed quickly enough could very easily kill a company. We will probably see a round of consolidation ( it’s cheaper and quicker to buy rather than build) then all sorts of indie developers setting up shop then more consolidation. I'm with you on the consolidation thing. Plugin Alliance, as an example. If/when things go subscription across the board, it's easy to imagine companies combining or being acquired so that turnkey sorts of solutions can be offered. Subscribe to "X" and we can provide for ALL of your plugin needs. Other than stuff on the utility side of things, ala Izotope, UAD sort of already does that. So does PA as well.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2021 14:06:16 GMT -6
But the consumer loses. Higher cost, less choice.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
|
Post by ericn on Mar 9, 2021 14:15:29 GMT -6
But the consumer loses. Higher cost, less choice. I wonder what the cost is going to be for everybody porting over to the new Apple chips while still supporting Intel Mac, I’m betting the consumer wins on this one over time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2021 14:28:45 GMT -6
Quint @johnkenn Steinberg put mouse movement routines on the elicenser. Cubase pirates can’t get the mouse movement to work right. It’s also why the movement can weird out. It’s more cumbersome but more secure than simply decrypting with ilok. some dongle only plugs got cracked like Seventh Heaven.
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Mar 9, 2021 15:20:14 GMT -6
But the consumer loses. Higher cost, less choice. For sure. I don't like it either. But I fear it's where things are headed. And I do, at least a little, sympathize with the plugin companies. I'm just trying to look at this as lemonade out of lemons situation.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Mar 9, 2021 15:40:21 GMT -6
Its a weird world. Cubase and VSL are dropping elicenser for ilok....waves no longer ALLOWS ilok...
Number of internet connected licenses i will pay for? Zero. Do you how many times my Addictive Drums hasn't opened? That was cheap as chips....cool demo drums for $35x2....i knew that was a PIA way to do it. I wouldnt buy it again. Machine auths have always been functionally inferior to dongles. Someone asks which is worse? Are you KIDDING me? Ive used the two dongles for 20 years with a single issue i helped slate track down...every machine auth, i feel like has at LEAST been a PIA, if not causing work stoppage. I say “feel” because its probably not 100%....still, my wallet says its 100%.
I can use whatever is around. That IS a threat.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Mar 9, 2021 16:22:08 GMT -6
I think very very soon, the stock plugins in every major DAW will be good enough, and of large enough variety, that many of us will have to seriously question whether we need any subscriptions at all. And if we do it'll be "whats the ONE subscription plan I have to have?"
We might already be at that point...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2021 18:16:05 GMT -6
I think very very soon, the stock plugins in every major DAW will be good enough, and of large enough variety, that many of us will have to seriously question whether we need any subscriptions at all. And if we do it'll be "whats the ONE subscription plan I have to have?" We might already be at that point... I doubt it. No daw gets the basics all right and several major daws (Logic, Ableton, Digital Perfomer) need audio engine and mixer rewrites that Cubase, Reaper, and Pro Tools did years ago. No way they will build a functional fast attack compressor anytime soon. Ableton licensed The Glue but only has up to 2x oversampling in it so the attack settings under 10ms behave weirdly. Cubase and Nuendo get the furthest but tie automation to the buffer. Reaper has unusable takes system (its slower than comping manually) and only does delay compensation in increments of the buffer.
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Mar 9, 2021 18:42:42 GMT -6
Which brings up an interesting thought. Which is better? Dongles or subscriptions? UAD hardware requirements (dongle) might be what helps to keep UAD from ever going subscription. To me UAD is & isn't a dongle. I'm sure some will debate it endlessly but I still see advantages to the "outboard DSP" platform, being able to shove things away from the main CPU. Other companies have tried that but couldn't make it work long term... TC Powercore? The reason I went with UA was two fold. One is that IMO they sound great. Two? They're really super easy to deal with. If I want to demo and then buy a plug its a quick, painless process. Authorized in a minute. On the flip side, without naming companies some iLok stuff is a complete drag. Had a project come in for mix last year, took the Logic session as-is. There were a handful of plugs I didn't have & easy to substitute, but there was also a specific one that was a special effect and I figured, well I should have that anyway and oh look its on sale! Gimmie! And then the pain started. What should've been a quick process, and I have other plugs from the same company installed and working... the process of buying, downloading and then trying to install that thing dragged for over 2 hours. Totally stopped work. After 2 hours with the plug not installed and opening a support ticket, taken completely out of my head space it was time to shut down the room, take the dog for a walk and crack a beer. That's why for me UAD wins. Couple 3 clicks of the mouse and I'm sailing on.
|
|