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Post by superwack on Mar 7, 2021 21:39:41 GMT -6
I’m so annoyed at plugin subscriptions and the sad state of plugins in general that I decided to use what would have been my one-year $300 iZotope subscription fee to buy a audioscape V3a #ASAF 🤘🏻
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 7, 2021 21:47:34 GMT -6
Fuck me i just bought 2 RX8 Advanced upgrades last Oct and a RX standard last month.
We use RX a LOT. That is not cool.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 7, 2021 21:48:58 GMT -6
[Sorry, more negative energy to get out] : And seriously, "Ozone Pro"?? So does that mean the version of Ozone I use isn't actually a professional tool after all? Damn, wish I'd known that before I bought it. Or does it maybe mean that if I use Ozone Advanced instead of Ozone Pro, that I'm no longer allowed to call myself a Pro? Yikes, maybe it's time to just stop using iZotope altogether, then? Also, as an aside, I'm so tired of listening to podcasts or talk radio where the AE overused RX noise reduction or RX de-reverb. Maybe on the "Pro" versions of their apps, they could have a popup window that says: Or maybe even: All right, I feel a little better having said that. Honestly most podcasts are surviving by recording themselves on Zoom calls and such. That is more likely what you're hearing and Zoom is very very aggressive on the echo cancelation. You can't even fully turn it off. RX seems super cool but I wonder if most of it is just gates, expanders and compressers in spectral editing? Even if it’s not, manual mode Spectral editing might be very useful. It's WAY more than just Gates and such. It'll do a lot of really good stuff
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2021 21:53:58 GMT -6
In reading the FAQ that Guitar posted, it's still not entirely clear: Is iZotope going to release fully-paid-for versions in the future? Like will there eventually be an Ozone 10 that you can buy outright? Or an RX 9? Or will it all be subscription-only going forward? I can't find a clear answer to that question. www.izotope.com/en/membership-comparison.html "over time, the Pro [subscription] versions will start getting updates that will not be available in the non-subscription versions of the products." Doesn’t sound promising but maybe they are leaving themselves wiggle room to deal with customer revolt? Yeah, that's exactly it - does their statement above mean that RX Pro will just be automatically updated with new features to remain current with RX 9, then RX 10, then RX 11, etc.? Or does it mean there will be no further development of RX past the current RX 8 (apart from "RX Pro")? We need more competition in the particular software space that RX inhabits. And probably the space that Ozone inhabits, too. I'd forgotten Wave Arts has MR Noise, MR Hum, and MR Click. And there's also Crumplepop for AU plugin users - those are pretty good. I have their WindRemover AI and it works fairly well. But RX's spectral editing and standalone workflow is killer when you need it. Man, this blows. I use RX plugins all the time in Final Cut to fix dialogue problems.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2021 21:57:18 GMT -6
[Sorry, more negative energy to get out] : And seriously, "Ozone Pro"?? So does that mean the version of Ozone I use isn't actually a professional tool after all? Damn, wish I'd known that before I bought it. Or does it maybe mean that if I use Ozone Advanced instead of Ozone Pro, that I'm no longer allowed to call myself a Pro? Yikes, maybe it's time to just stop using iZotope altogether, then? Also, as an aside, I'm so tired of listening to podcasts or talk radio where the AE overused RX noise reduction or RX de-reverb. Maybe on the "Pro" versions of their apps, they could have a popup window that says: Or maybe even: All right, I feel a little better having said that. Honestly most podcasts are surviving by recording themselves on Zoom calls and such. That is more likely what you're hearing and Zoom is very very aggressive on the echo cancelation. You can't even fully turn it off. I'm talking even on NPR and large moneymaking podcasts. The overuse of these tools just sounds terrible to me.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 7, 2021 21:58:14 GMT -6
www.izotope.com/en/membership-comparison.html "over time, the Pro [subscription] versions will start getting updates that will not be available in the non-subscription versions of the products." Doesn’t sound promising but maybe they are leaving themselves wiggle room to deal with customer revolt? Yeah, that's exactly it - does their statement above mean that RX Pro will just be automatically updated with new features to remain current with RX 9, then RX 10, then RX 11, etc.? Or does it mean there will be no further development of RX past the current RX 8 (apart from "RX Pro")? We need more competition in the particular software space that RX inhabits. And probably the space that Ozone inhabits, too. I'd forgotten Wave Arts has MR Noise, MR Hum, and MR Click. And there's also Crumplepop for AU plugin users - those are pretty good. I have their WindRemover AI and it works fairly well. But RX's spectral editing and standalone workflow is killer when you need it. Man, this blows. I use RX plugins all the time in Final Cut to fix dialogue problems. According to the FAQ actually, RX pro is equivalent to RX standard? Not Advanced. Hm. Odd. Wonder if that means the Advanced version of that will still be something you can buy out right. It is like their most expensive plugin I think and probably one of the most popular given that basically every Post mixer of every kind and a lot of music mixers use the crap out of it.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2021 21:59:05 GMT -6
Fuck me i just bought 2 RX8 Advanced upgrades last Oct and a RX standard last month. We use RX a LOT. That is not cool. Man, that sucks big time. Like, insane. So sorry. I hope iZotope at least clarifies their position on the future ahead with non-subscription stuff.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2021 22:00:08 GMT -6
Yeah, that's exactly it - does their statement above mean that RX Pro will just be automatically updated with new features to remain current with RX 9, then RX 10, then RX 11, etc.? Or does it mean there will be no further development of RX past the current RX 8 (apart from "RX Pro")? We need more competition in the particular software space that RX inhabits. And probably the space that Ozone inhabits, too. I'd forgotten Wave Arts has MR Noise, MR Hum, and MR Click. And there's also Crumplepop for AU plugin users - those are pretty good. I have their WindRemover AI and it works fairly well. But RX's spectral editing and standalone workflow is killer when you need it. Man, this blows. I use RX plugins all the time in Final Cut to fix dialogue problems. According to the FAQ actually, RX pro is equivalent to RX standard? Not Advanced. Hm. Odd. Wonder if that means the Advanced version of that will still be something you can buy out right. It is like their most expensive plugin I think and probably one of the most popular given that basically every Post mixer of every kind and a lot of music mixers use the crap out of it. Right - I'd forgotten. They mention an "RX for Music" in the Pro bundle...
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 7, 2021 22:08:30 GMT -6
Honestly most podcasts are surviving by recording themselves on Zoom calls and such. That is more likely what you're hearing and Zoom is very very aggressive on the echo cancelation. You can't even fully turn it off. I'm talking even on NPR and large moneymaking podcasts. The overuse of these tools just sounds terrible to me. Yeah idk. Most of the producers do some of their own stuff depends on the gig. All radio is compressed to hell so whatever. Again though, most interviews these days are through Zoom or some other online thing which sounds bad to begin with. Doesn't help all podcasts are mp3s too. So it's a large additive effect.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 7, 2021 22:09:12 GMT -6
According to the FAQ actually, RX pro is equivalent to RX standard? Not Advanced. Hm. Odd. Wonder if that means the Advanced version of that will still be something you can buy out right. It is like their most expensive plugin I think and probably one of the most popular given that basically every Post mixer of every kind and a lot of music mixers use the crap out of it. Right - I'd forgotten. They mention an "RX for Music" in the Pro bundle... Yeah guess I'll find out. Funny enough I have RX 5, 6, 7, 8 Adv so..I'm probably good for a while. ha
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Post by donr on Mar 7, 2021 22:31:21 GMT -6
What price would be reasonable for a subscription model? I still have the Slate everything bundle at $149/year, I can afford it. But I’m using less Slate stuff these days, and I own most of what I do use. Slate does allow you to turn your subscription on and off. There are months when I don’t do any recording or mixing at all. I could economize that way.
Would $5/month be ok? $300/year for Ozone and RX sounds too high to me. I can see why software companies would like a steady somewhat reliable cash flow. My newest WAVES stuff co-exists with my older waves bundle. I haven’t WUP’ed in years.
I’d like to see all the DAW software players survive. Some great stuff in this golden age of plugins. I don’t want companies to do anything stupid and ultimately destructive. '
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Post by audioscape on Mar 8, 2021 0:00:22 GMT -6
I’m so annoyed at plugin subscriptions and the sad state of plugins in general that I decided to use what would have been my one-year $300 iZotope subscription fee to buy a audioscape V3a #ASAF 🤘🏻 F YEAH man!!!! That's AMAZING and #ASAF!! Thank you so much, you're going to LOVE it!! ;-)
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 8, 2021 1:12:25 GMT -6
www.izotope.com/en/membership-comparison.html "over time, the Pro [subscription] versions will start getting updates that will not be available in the non-subscription versions of the products." Doesn’t sound promising but maybe they are leaving themselves wiggle room to deal with customer revolt? Yeah, that's exactly it - does their statement above mean that RX Pro will just be automatically updated with new features to remain current with RX 9, then RX 10, then RX 11, etc.? Or does it mean there will be no further development of RX past the current RX 8 (apart from "RX Pro")? We need more competition in the particular software space that RX inhabits. And probably the space that Ozone inhabits, too. I'd forgotten Wave Arts has MR Noise, MR Hum, and MR Click. And there's also Crumplepop for AU plugin users - those are pretty good. I have their WindRemover AI and it works fairly well. But RX's spectral editing and standalone workflow is killer when you need it. Man, this blows. I use RX plugins all the time in Final Cut to fix dialogue problems. wiz mentioned Mr noise a while back and I've had it on every mix since. Love it.
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Post by javamad on Mar 8, 2021 2:16:25 GMT -6
I hate the idea of subscriptions for something like plugins ... once you have built up a few ... you don’t want to be paying regular cash to someone for nothing new.
Looking at a 5 year period, at $25/month ... thats $1,500! and you have to know you will want to use stuff from other software developers ... if they all used this model you’d be spending up to $5 grand in 5 years ... are they all going to be developing soooo much amazing new stuff that you are going to feel you are getting value?
So glad I got my Noise Reduction from Acon Digital... it works really well at getting rid of tube amp noise .... which is all I need. It has de-click, de-clip as well but I’ve never used them ... I just re-record the source if I made a mistake.
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Post by mike on Mar 8, 2021 6:21:31 GMT -6
My guess is, IF they do try to move to an all subscription based model at first, that after they feel they've reached the saturation point of subscription type consumers and its revenue stream numbers begin to fall at some point,...it would only be a matter of time before they then periodically offered sales again of buying individual stand alone products to the demographic of people who won't buy subscriptions,.. ...because after all , to ignore that group is ignoring another potential revenue stream,... so they could limit the timing of when individual perpetual license products are available on sale to motivate the non subscription buyers, while keeping those prices higher the rest of the year to otherwise motivate the subscription type buyer. Isn't that what PA has evolved too for this reason?
Izotope has already shown an aggressive marketing and pricing strategy to reach all types of buyers from different tier levels of their products from basic to advanced with prices that often change and sales that happen often wanting to leave no potential consumer untapped. Many more consumers have been around the block now with subscription type models in the audio world, and my guess is a growing number of them have walked away from subscriptions to find alternative products in general. I doubt Izotope ignores that demographic for too long after attempting to max out subscription revenue stream money. I think their plan will want both types of consumers like PA does. FWIW
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2021 9:22:31 GMT -6
Hey guys, Please allow a longtime developer (now fully retired) to weigh in on this. When I founded Exponential Audio, I built several years of support into my product pricing. I was able to fulfill that obligation, but it really became a chore. Lots of things would weigh into that burden--some peculiarity in Studio One, an incompatibility in WaveLab, control surface support in Pro tools, security work. The list is nearly endless. By the time I put the company into iZotope's hands, I had perhaps 10% of my time (usually 70 hour weeks) available for any creative or feature work. With the exception of a few contractors that did PR, etc, I did this all myself. In order to balance that load, I'd have had to bring in 2 or 3 more full-time people. That would have obliged me to deal with alll sorts of new regulations and to convert myself into a manager. I'd have lost myself as a developer for at least a few years anyway. And--this is the key thing--I'd have had to pay for that new structure in some way. I am quite sure that I'd have instituted a subscription model myself by now. This is true whether I'd continued as a one-man shop or had decided to follow a more traditional structure.
So don't consider this as a particular defense of iZotope. They don't really need any defending. Except for small startup developers (like I used to be) subscriptions will be the way most audio software companies keep the lights on and keep inventing new stuff. Unless you've made and supported a plugin over a period of years, you'd likely be surprised at the amount of work that has to happen to keep it working smoothly over Mac/Win, multiple generations of O/S and a couple dozen popular DAWs. I think the plugin 'industry' has been based on a growth model for a long time--new sales pay for support of old products. But as the industry has matured, most everyone faces the fact that growth is not infinite. So exactly how DO you pay for a healthy balance of innovation and product support?
We all face the choice of how current we need to stay in our computers, DAWs, plugins, operating systems and so on. I now must make many of those decisions myself. Getting as many years as possible out of an older computer and freezing all updates is certainly a legitimate choice. With some care, that solution can work for many years. Reducing the menagerie of plugins to your most important set is also a decent notion. But it's a hard truth that supporting DAWs, drivers, plugins is painstaking and expensive work. That's the basic reality of the matter.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2021 9:33:36 GMT -6
I don't know what the answer is...but I know I can't afford a Waves, UAD, Goodhertz, AVID, Steinberg, Fabfilter, Crave, Izotope, Plug Alliance, Logic (and the list goes on to about 30 more companies) subscriptions. If so, I'd have to narrow it down to about five. Or - just pay for hardware once and be done with it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2021 9:52:13 GMT -6
I don't know what the answer is...but I know I can't afford a Waves, UAD, Goodhertz, AVID, Steinberg, Fabfilter, Crave, Izotope, Plug Alliance, Logic (and the list goes on to about 30 more companies) subscriptions. If so, I'd have to narrow it down to about five. Or - just pay for hardware once and be done with it. Yeah it would add up to be over 1000 a year easily and all the non technical/utility plugs would be chucked out. The entire analog emulation market would pretty much be toast because that stuff really does seem to be a 30-50 dollar impulse purchase. Tokyo Dawn, PSP (waves but better and cleaner), and probably Waves (the utility plugs are really good) would make for me. Sonnox would be too expensive and already is too expensive without a sub. SSL Native finally had big sales because uh they got cracked and I guess needed the revenue because their plugs weren’t hype. Everything else would be thrown under a bus because they don’t offer the same clarity, utility, and ease of use. Why should I pay 15 a month for a 1073 emulation when I have slick eq? Why do I need another not as good as hardware 1176 or any other hardware FET clone when I have Molot GE? Something like Pulsar? Hell no. 50-150 is already too much for their 1178 when the Drawmer 1978 is only 1000 dollars and kicks it’s ass. That thing sounds as bad as Waves CLA 76 compared to hardware, Molot GE, and even the Kush Silika.
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Post by srb on Mar 8, 2021 9:55:04 GMT -6
I have enjoyed researching, demoing, and adding new plugins over the years; and like most here, from multiple companies.
That looks to be taking a pause (or outright abandonment), and a thorough re-evaluation could be required, if this subscription model trend continues in the direction it seems headed.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2021 9:57:44 GMT -6
You could say the same for cable/streaming media. When all these subscriptions cost more than a one-stop cable sub, then I'll just go back to cable.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2021 9:58:30 GMT -6
And I'm all for free-enterprise - I'm just saying this is going to make demand dry up.
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Post by superwack on Mar 8, 2021 10:16:02 GMT -6
Plugin subscriptions make no sense because plugins mostly provide an alternate choice of tools you already have (ok perhaps slightly better) and, sometimes, add or improve an existing feature or workflow. They are an ACCESSORY not the product and it makes no sense to spend $399 on a Pro Tools Ultimate Subscription then 75% of that AGAIN every year just to add the functionality of iZotope as but one example. Rinse and repeat for dozens of companies. I understand that corporate bean counters and shareholders want predictable monthly income but the subscriptions would only make sense if they cost so little that they probably wouldn’t be worth it for the company If I drove a pickup to a job site and was always getting mud in my truck I might invest $200 in laser cut floor mats but if I went to Autozone and found out the floor mats cost a five grand I’d pass
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Post by jmoose on Mar 8, 2021 13:51:25 GMT -6
I don't know what the answer is...but I know I can't afford a Waves, UAD, Goodhertz, AVID, Steinberg, Fabfilter, Crave, Izotope, Plug Alliance, Logic (and the list goes on to about 30 more companies) subscriptions. If so, I'd have to narrow it down to about five. Or - just pay for hardware once and be done with it. That's kind of where I ended up a couple years ago. Bought a new Mac rig in 2019 and decided early on that I wasn't going to flood it with plugins... Was a very conscious choice. I've seen & gotten plenty of sessions that are loaded up with more shit then I'd ever use and lots of things I've never even heard of. Even since joining here several weeks ago... Tokyo Dawn? Crave? No idea! Personally I don't need all that much to actually make a record. Goes to what I said in that other EQ post, do I really need 50 different equalizers? No. Not at all. I've got the stock Logic stuff which, most is plenty usable... my UAD is less then 3 dozen plugs and feel like I have all I really need. Sure there's more I'd like to have but nothing I actually need. Even Soundtoys... sure I have Echoboy. Needed that one! But I skipped the bundle and only bought what I actually used on sale. Have the full bundle on my Win7 rig but no matter how many times I've tried to use crystalizer someone says, what's that spaceship sound? Take that off. I still use my hardware too. All the time! About 20 years I bought a pair of Daking 52270's from a guy who was selling 4 of 'em to pay for Monkey Toolz upgrades... Toolz version what? 5 maybe? I easily got the better end of that deal. Chances that his 1999 era Toolz rig is actually still running are slim and none. Yet, those Dakings have survived the changes of 4 analog consoles... the 2" tape era... and at least 4 or 5 generations of DAW platforms. My only regret with the Dakings was not having the money to buy all 4. I should've borrowed it. Best example of the hardware saving the day was in the great Pace iLok crash of several years ago. When everyone on the planet was locked out of their rigs I kept trucking along. Yeah it sucked, I lost a few things for a while but it never actually stopped work. Didn't get quite what I expected opening this... Frankly I've never really found Ozone anything to be all that great or useful for me. Thought maybe "pro" meant that they crossed a line and came up with something new and awesome! Well, I guess they sorta did. I don't need any of this stuff... not anything... except this ashtray. And maybe this lamp. That's all I need... the ashtray, this lamp and maybe the remote control... that's all I need...
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Post by mcirish on Mar 8, 2021 14:01:31 GMT -6
I'm not going to go to a subscription on any software. I used to use a lot of Adobe products but have moved away from them when it went all subscription. The PA licenses I have are safe for now but I will drop them if I'm ever forced in to a subscription. I can stay with the Izotope stuff I have now and can find other tools to do the job if they force a subscription. I fully understand why companies do this. it gives them a predictable income. They need to understand that music creators do not want this. If I drop a subscription and then need to open a session from a few years ago, I'm forced to buy the subscription. That does not work for me and I will find alternative software to prevent it in the future.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 8, 2021 18:32:48 GMT -6
I've never met anybody who got rich from developing audio software. Like it or not, subscription is the only business model that makes any financial sense. There's no reason for people to buy new computers or upgrade software because it no longer makes the kind of a dramatic difference that it did twenty years ago.
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