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Post by Ward on Jan 24, 2021 7:11:15 GMT -6
Overall, the Serrano sounds a little choked on your voice, and I would not have had Carlos cserrano darken the circuit. JMHO. But the guitars LOVED it!! The Soyuz definitely had the most presence but only by a 0.1 to 0.2 db margin. And at first is captivating but then gets really fatiguing. The Stam is beautiful but NEEDS A BETTER TUBE! Get an Amperex EF86 for it. Then it will be should winner for your voice. Right now, the bit of lower mud/mid overload that is happening (granted, it's very minute) bugs me a bit too much. It doesn't work on the acouctic guitars for me. And Guitar from what I understand, Stam's 67 has either a Heiserman or Campbell K67 capsule in it, I think it will be a long time before assembly line Asian K67 knockoff capsules match either of them, but I could be wrong! Maybe I'm just being an old curmudgeon. (It's sometimes hard to listen acutely when your voice has shades of Dewey Bunnell and Gerry Beckley in it - both of whose singing captivates me...and other folk-rock greats from the 1970s) What did I pick? Serrano on guitars (hands down), Serrano on vocals (until the tube in the Stam is changed) for now... (EDIT: for a typo, all along I meant to pick the Serrano for the guitars)
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Post by Guitar on Jan 24, 2021 7:24:40 GMT -6
That's the engineering vs artist side in a nutshell. One is all about subtle audio quality, the other one just about emotion and expression. If you do good enough at the second one like Mark did, the first one becomes less of a focus. But it's what we do, we are "the sound quality people." Gosh that sounds like some kind of trolls that live under expensive bridges.
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Post by Ward on Jan 24, 2021 9:28:34 GMT -6
That's the engineering vs artist side in a nutshell. One is all about subtle audio quality, the other one just about emotion and expression. If you do good enough at the second one like Mark did, the first one becomes less of a focus. But it's what we do, we are "the sound quality people." Gosh that sounds like some kind of trolls that live under expensive bridges. Nahhh . . . The internet trolls raised the bar long ago. That's just mildly cheeky, not even close to Trollish. LOL "Trolls that live under expensive bridges" - I'm using that one! HAHAHAHAHAHA
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Post by drumsound on Jan 24, 2021 15:57:07 GMT -6
OK, everybody. I'm going to be posting various comparisons in this thread as I have a chance to mix them down over the next couple days. In all of these comparisons, all three mics were simultaneously put up with diaphragms as closely aligned as possible. Each part in the song was performed once, with all three mics capturing the performance simultaneously. In this first comparison, all three mics went through my Metric Halo ULN-8 preamps, because they are the only preamps that I currently have more than two of. I wanted to compare mics, not preamps. This features my Serrano 87 after Carlos had darkened the circuit to be slightly darker than a typical vintage U87. Tracked at 24/96. No EQ or compression added. A little kiss of reverb and delay added for a sense of space. The mic in question was used to record both of the acoustic guitars and the vocal. (The drums/perc are Superior Drummer.) https%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/each-grit-of-beach-serrano-87https%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/each-grit-of-beach-soyuz-019https%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/each-grit-of-beach-stam-67EDIT: Good lord - in listening back to these directly from SoundCloud, I am really disappointed by whatever algorithm they are using to compress these for web use. If anyone wants the original .wav files, just let me know. I saw this yesterday but needed to get to the studio. I'm going to just listen and write some comments, before reading the rest of the thread. Even on SC I'm hearing differences. Serrano sounds beautiful, very finished. The guitars really pop, and the voicing works well for you voice. The Soyuz makes the guitars sound very 2d compared to the Serrano. I do REALLY like it on your voice. It really draws me to your voice. The Stam feels more similar to the Soyuz than it does to the Serrano to me, though not as 'inviting' on your voice. I also think it changes tone as you move around more than the other two mics. Maybe its pattern is tighter than the others? ETA, if I were producing you on an acoustic project at your home studio, I'd put the Serrano on guitar, but use the Soyuz on the vocal. I'm also curious how much louder/harder/more-belted singing you do. I'm sure all three of these mics would take on a different character with different singing, even from the same (quite talented) singer.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 24, 2021 19:09:45 GMT -6
So many wonderful comments - thank you so much to everyone. I'm really grateful. I should perhaps have said at the beginning that I do have my own opinions about the three mics in comparison to each other, having heard them more than anyone else on my voice and guitar. I don't like sharing those opinions up front, because I don't want to shape people's responses. But I'll share a bit, and then I've got the next track to drop here. I'm so, so glad that people are liking the Serrano 87. I think cserrano has done a marvelous job with it. I hope some of you are considering buying one. I think you'll like it a lot if you do. I have to say I've been a bit surprised by how many folks have put it as their #1 in this first song. While I certainly like it A LOT, I do miss the low mids and low end of the Stam 67 and the Soyuz 019 (which is now called the 017FET, of course) when hearing it. I haven't tried the "retuned" Serrano with my 1073MPA pres or with anything besides the Metric Halo pres, which are pretty flat. I'll be interested to see how the Serrano performs with a pre that has a bigger bottom and more rounded off transients. These tests are the first time I'd ever paired the Soyuz with the Metric Halo pres, and I'm super impressed, personally. The Soyuz with the 1073MPA pres (Sowter) are just too much of a good thing in the low mids a lot of the time. And re: the Stam 67, of course keep in mind that in a real mix, I would EQ it, gently carving out some mids and giving it a high shelf. It takes EQ wonderfully. Though as someone has said here in the thread, the Serrano doesn't really need any EQ here. EDIT: drumsound Tony, that's a great point about wanting to hear it with louder, more pushed vocals. I'll see what I can come up with. OK - get ready for the next song. Coming up in 3...2...1...
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 24, 2021 19:14:19 GMT -6
OK, this next one is for Martin John Butler . This features the Serrano 87 before Carlos tuned the circuit to darken it up a bit. For my ear, it's a little too bright, which is why I had him "retune" the circuit. But some of you may love that brightness. Maybe that's what you're personally looking for in a U87? https%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/the-path-to-popotla-serrano-87%3Fin%3Dmarkwilliams/sets/serrano-87-cf-soyuz-019-cf-stam-67-part-iihttps%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/the-path-to-popotla-soyuz-019%3Fin%3Dmarkwilliams/sets/serrano-87-cf-soyuz-019-cf-stam-67-part-iihttps%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/the-path-to-popotla-stam-67%3Fin%3Dmarkwilliams/sets/serrano-87-cf-soyuz-019-cf-stam-67-part-iiYou guys all know that these aren't the real song titles, right? Obviously the first song was Dylan's "Every Grain of Sand," and this one is Lyle Lovett's "The Road to Ensenada."
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Post by drbill on Jan 24, 2021 21:36:37 GMT -6
All these thoughts are on the second song Mark - Road TE. Have you got the same mic placement? Things are sounding different to me. EDIT : Doh!! I mis-read which was which. But I'm still getting a different feel out of them.
Still not wild about the Soyouz on you. Sounds kinda lifeless compared to the other two. There's things I like about both the Serrano and the Stam, but I'd still probably put the Serrano up first if we were tracking - BUT - into a Coil CA70, and it would make all the difference IMO. Would also be interested in hearing the HF-toned down Serrano as that might be just perfect.
The stam is bigger, def more vintage sounding and has more size to it, but I'm not sure if it's helping or hurting to be honest. The Serrano has a more modern presentation. Again, I'd love to hear the rolled off version. If it's subtle it might be the perfect option.
Although the Stam probably leans more towards my natural wheelhouse, there's something on the Stam that I don't care for that I can't quite put my finger on. Kinda boxy / wooly. Might be the room coming into play - the cardio pattern might be wider opening it up to some room reflections and phasiness? Not sure. I know, EQ, eq.... but still. It does have good life, but with any more in the arrangement, I think I'd be fighting it a lot. (Speaking of the vocal)
For the acoustic it's the Serrano all the way!
Side note - you've got an amazing voice dude!!! <thumbsup>
PS - with just a tad more HF rolled out of it, I think the Serrano is dead nuts on for an 87 vibe. Of course, they are all over the map these days after 40 years of use/abuse, but it's right in there for what I'd expect. The Stam is in the 67 camp. Both of those mics have a "life" to their presentation that the Soyuz lacked for me. Both have some issues that I would try to mitigate.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jan 24, 2021 22:17:07 GMT -6
This one is actually pretty interesting.
Based on previous clips, I'm definitely biased toward the Stam on your voice, but in this example, the Serrano really does sound more "finished." I feel like it's good enough to be a flat transfer. Pretty impressive, IMO.
Still, the Stam has a distinct midrange that I really like. I'd be curious to hear the Stam EQ'd to be closer to the Serrano.
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Post by ragan on Jan 24, 2021 23:50:41 GMT -6
That's a dang nice song. I know MJB talks about it a lot as a benchmark production for him but somehow I'd never actually heard the song. At first I forgot to think about the mics and just started thinking about a month long roadtrip my best friend and I took down the Baja when we were about 21. We bought a Subaru hatchback (with no windows) for $300 just for the trip and...ANYWAY this is a (lovely) thread about mics, not roadtrips. The power of a great song and performance.
For me on this one, it's still the Stam out front. It's just so comfortable and inviting. That quality of getting lost in the song and going through your own memories and forgetting about gear is there the strongest with the 67 for me. Next I place the Soyuz here. It doesn't quite have the rich mids, or rather I should maybe just say the prominent, warm mids. It's got nice mids, they're just pushed back a bit. As someone else noted, a little C12-ish. The Serrano here is just too crispy for me and lacking meat. It's not harsh, which a lot of mics if they were tuned this bright would be. But it's just too hot for me up top. But I really like it with the less-bright tuning (from the first clips).
If I were taking these tracks I'd have the Stam on lead vox and it's kind of a tossup between the Stam and Soyuz for guitars. Just for width and space interest, I'd probably have one side guitar be Stam and the other Soyuz.
Great singing and playing as usual and thanks for sharing. Super fun to listen along.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 25, 2021 0:04:29 GMT -6
That's a dang nice song. I know MJB talks about it a lot as a benchmark production for him but somehow I'd never actually heard the song. At first I forgot to think about the mics and just started thinking about a month long roadtrip my best friend and I took down the Baja when we were about 21. We bought a Subaru hatchback (with no windows) for $300 just for the trip and...ANYWAY this is a (lovely) thread about mics, not roadtrips. The power of a great song and performance. For me on this one, it's still the Stam out front. It's just so comfortable and inviting. That quality of getting lost in the song and going through your own memories and forgetting about gear is there the strongest with the 67 for me. Next I place the Soyuz here. It doesn't quite have the rich mids, or rather I should maybe just say the prominent, warm mids. It's got nice mids, they're just pushed back a bit. As someone else noted, a little C12-ish. The Serrano here is just too crispy for me and lacking meat. It's not harsh, which a lot of mics if they were tuned this bright would be. But it's just too hot for me up top. But I really like it with the less-bright tuning (from the first clips). If I were taking these tracks I'd have the Stam on lead vox and it's kind of a tossup between the Stam and Soyuz for guitars. Just for width and space interest, I'd probably have one side guitar be Stam and the other Soyuz. Great singing and playing as usual and thanks for sharing. Super fun to listen along. I hear this basically exactly like you do, ragan . Minus the windowless Subaru hatchback. I like the Serrano better when it has the darker tuning (as in Every Grain of Sand) as opposed to the brighter tuning (as in Road to Ensenada), but I still gravitate to the Stam 67 overall. I need to plug the Serrano into my Weight Tank WT-72, though. That would be interesting to hear.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 25, 2021 0:56:02 GMT -6
Serrano for sure. Fits your voice and the track perfect.
Stam 2nd, would probably be best choice once you put some EQ on it.
Soyuz didn't work well here I think.
Edit: for the first shoot out. Will have to check the 2nd one..
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Post by Guitar on Jan 25, 2021 5:52:40 GMT -6
This time around I favored the Stam and the Soyuz over the Serrano, a reversal of what I thought on the first demo. Soyuz sounds a little more sculpted and "ready to go," I like that lean sort of tone. In a fat, stacked mix it would likely hold the center. The Stam is warm and velvety sounding here, really lovely. I'm sure you could shape it with EQ. Serrano ends up sounding a little too fizzly on this track, too much energy in the highs compared to the other two. For your voice, yeah, I think it was wise to taper down that high end with him. Shows how sensitive these tiny EQ moves are on a lead vocal mic, for it to sound "finished." In my opinion, going from first to last with the two profiles.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 25, 2021 6:47:55 GMT -6
So many wonderful comments - thank you so much to everyone. I'm really grateful. I should perhaps have said at the beginning that I do have my own opinions about the three mics in comparison to each other, having heard them more than anyone else on my voice and guitar. I don't like sharing those opinions up front, because I don't want to shape people's responses. But I'll share a bit, and then I've got the next track to drop here. I'm so, so glad that people are liking the Serrano 87. I think cserrano has done a marvelous job with it. I hope some of you are considering buying one. I think you'll like it a lot if you do. I have to say I've been a bit surprised by how many folks have put it as their #1 in this first song. While I certainly like it A LOT, I do miss the low mids and low end of the Stam 67 and the Soyuz 019 (which is now called the 017FET, of course) when hearing it. I haven't tried the "retuned" Serrano with my 1073MPA pres or with anything besides the Metric Halo pres, which are pretty flat. I'll be interested to see how the Serrano performs with a pre that has a bigger bottom and more rounded off transients. These tests are the first time I'd ever paired the Soyuz with the Metric Halo pres, and I'm super impressed, personally. The Soyuz with the 1073MPA pres (Sowter) are just too much of a good thing in the low mids a lot of the time. And re: the Stam 67, of course keep in mind that in a real mix, I would EQ it, gently carving out some mids and giving it a high shelf. It takes EQ wonderfully. Though as someone has said here in the thread, the Serrano doesn't really need any EQ here. EDIT: drumsound Tony, that's a great point about wanting to hear it with louder, more pushed vocals. I'll see what I can come up with. OK - get ready for the next song. Coming up in 3...2...1... I'd bet my life that the results would be different if you posted it blind.
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Post by ragan on Jan 25, 2021 9:40:28 GMT -6
So many wonderful comments - thank you so much to everyone. I'm really grateful. I should perhaps have said at the beginning that I do have my own opinions about the three mics in comparison to each other, having heard them more than anyone else on my voice and guitar. I don't like sharing those opinions up front, because I don't want to shape people's responses. But I'll share a bit, and then I've got the next track to drop here. I'm so, so glad that people are liking the Serrano 87. I think cserrano has done a marvelous job with it. I hope some of you are considering buying one. I think you'll like it a lot if you do. I have to say I've been a bit surprised by how many folks have put it as their #1 in this first song. While I certainly like it A LOT, I do miss the low mids and low end of the Stam 67 and the Soyuz 019 (which is now called the 017FET, of course) when hearing it. I haven't tried the "retuned" Serrano with my 1073MPA pres or with anything besides the Metric Halo pres, which are pretty flat. I'll be interested to see how the Serrano performs with a pre that has a bigger bottom and more rounded off transients. These tests are the first time I'd ever paired the Soyuz with the Metric Halo pres, and I'm super impressed, personally. The Soyuz with the 1073MPA pres (Sowter) are just too much of a good thing in the low mids a lot of the time. And re: the Stam 67, of course keep in mind that in a real mix, I would EQ it, gently carving out some mids and giving it a high shelf. It takes EQ wonderfully. Though as someone has said here in the thread, the Serrano doesn't really need any EQ here. EDIT: drumsound Tony, that's a great point about wanting to hear it with louder, more pushed vocals. I'll see what I can come up with. OK - get ready for the next song. Coming up in 3...2...1... I'd bet my life that the results would be different if you posted it blind. How so? I don’t get the sense that anyone has much of a dog in this fight. I feel like I’m pretty much purely going on sonics on this one, even knowing which is which.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 25, 2021 10:13:44 GMT -6
We should all have those Red spinning chairs, from The Voice. Chris
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Post by Ward on Jan 25, 2021 11:13:55 GMT -6
I'd bet my life that the results would be different if you posted it blind. You're probably correct. I listened to these files 3 more times, on my studio office iMac, my nearfields (Neumann 120s) and mains (Tannoy 215DMT mark IIs) and haven't wavered from my original thoughts. I still strongly believe that if you swapped out the tube in the SA67 with a 1967 Amperex EF86, all the low mud distortion would be corrected and it would be the clear winner on Mark's voice. The underscoring point for me in all this is the truth of a vintage 87 (and cserrano seems to have nailed it) - even when it's not the best mic for any source, a U87 will never let you down and will always sound good. Making it the best overall utility LDC ever made. JMHO YMMV TETO
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 25, 2021 11:29:50 GMT -6
I'd bet my life that the results would be different if you posted it blind. You're probably correct. I listened to these files 3 more times, on my studio office iMac, my nearfields (Neumann 120s) and mains (Tannoy 215DMT mark IIs) and haven't wavered from my original thoughts. I still strongly believe that if you swapped out the tube in the SA67 with a 1967 Amperex EF86, all the low mud distortion would be corrected and it would be the clear winner on Mark's voice. The underscoring point for me in all this is the truth of a vintage 87 (and cserrano seems to have nailed it) - even when it's not the best mic for any source, a U87 will never let you down and will always sound good. Making it the best overall utility LDC ever made. JMHO YMMV TETO Good points, Ward. Also, the fact that the Serrano is hanging with these other mics (and in some people's opinions here, besting them) is a major feat. Congrats to cserrano for a job very, very well done.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 25, 2021 11:33:50 GMT -6
I'd bet my life that the results would be different if you posted it blind. You're probably correct. I listened to these files 3 more times, on my studio office iMac, my nearfields (Neumann 120s) and mains (Tannoy 215DMT mark IIs) and haven't wavered from my original thoughts. I still strongly believe that if you swapped out the tube in the SA67 with a 1967 Amperex EF86, all the low mud distortion would be corrected and it would be the clear winner on Mark's voice. The underscoring point for me in all this is the truth of a vintage 87 (and cserrano seems to have nailed it) - even when it's not the best mic for any source, a U87 will never let you down and will always sound good. Making it the best overall utility LDC ever made. JMHO YMMV TETO I think it’s kind of funny, that the main members of the 87 is good but seldom great club, you DrBill and myself all think the 87 is best here! Mark it just works on your voice and the guitar, sure I would like a little more weight on the vocals but some EQ and compression maybe a Neveish pre for a bit of dimension. That’s all personal taste though the thing is it just works, factor in the price and it’s a no brainer. A nice used UM70 is always my sub $2k benchmark the fact that you could grab 2 of these, and with the specials he runs a pair of Rycotes and a nice Seahorse case it’s a no brainer. The fact that we have Carlos and the guys at United giving us affordable decent sounding FET clones and the likes of Hiesermann building brilliant clones and original mics means we are truly in a golden age. Now Carlos build us a KM 84 that sounds this good!
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Post by Ward on Jan 25, 2021 11:37:44 GMT -6
Now Carlos build us a KM 84 that sounds this good! If there's one post cserrano reads, I hope it's this one!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 25, 2021 11:43:36 GMT -6
Now Carlos build us a KM 84 that sounds this good! If there's one post cserrano reads, I hope it's this one! I think somebody new like Carlos would be perfect for it. Plus from a marketing stand point being the affordable FET clone source would be a nice niche. If we could then get a C38b out of him we would be golden. Now my gut says he will probably go after a 67, but that’s getting to be a crowded space.
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Post by Ward on Jan 25, 2021 11:55:26 GMT -6
If there's one post cserrano reads, I hope it's this one! I think somebody new like Carlos would be perfect for it. Plus from a marketing stand point being the affordable FET clone source would be a nice niche. If we could then get a C38b out of him we would be golden. Now my gut says he will probably go after a 67, but that’s getting to be a crowded space. Very true, and nice sneaky roundabout way of asking Heiserman tskguy mdmitch2 and wave to build a C37 clone after the ELA H251 product has sold a few hundred units! But yes, cserrano . . . the Warm 84 isn't close to nailing it, THUS we could definitely find a market for such CS84 and CS86 microphones! Edit: Fixed a bunch of typos
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Post by stam on Jan 25, 2021 12:40:27 GMT -6
I'd bet my life that the results would be different if you posted it blind. You're probably correct. I listened to these files 3 more times, on my studio office iMac, my nearfields (Neumann 120s) and mains (Tannoy 215DMT mark IIs) and haven't wavered from my original thoughts. I still strongly believe that if you swapped out the tube in the SA67 with a 1967 Amperex EF86, all the low mud distortion would be corrected and it would be the clear winner on Mark's voice. The underscoring point for me in all this is the truth of a vintage 87 (and cserrano seems to have nailed it) - even when it's not the best mic for any source, a U87 will never let you down and will always sound good. Making it the best overall utility LDC ever made. JMHO YMMV TETO He does not need to change the tube. Much less for an Amperex. I really hope Mark doesn't. His 67 was matched against my 3 vintage 67's within 0.1dB with a NOS EF86 tube. They sound identical with each other. The entire point of cloning a vintage 67 is that they sound round and darker than modern microphones. For a modern/bright application you would not use a 67. A C12 or Elam 251 would get that job done. None of these take EQ has beautifully as a U67. If you would post these same tracks with a 2db boost at 12k you would get immense joy how it never gets painful. I believe the U67 and accurate replicas are the best microphones ever made for female vocals. I would go with a 47 for males as a personal preference but again, with a little EQ it works. Here are 3 67's with a female friend singing into them. No EQ or processing, one of them is mine:
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Post by Ward on Jan 25, 2021 13:28:04 GMT -6
stam, Here's a copy and paste of my answer to a customer of yours about his SA67 microphone. Verbatim. "I have 15 EF86 variant tubes for my Neumann U67. Up until I got the matched pair of Amperex EF86s, the 1960 Telefunken EF806s (small-s) was my favorite cos it had the least amount of low-mid/mud distortion in the sound. But not only did the Amperex clean that up, it also opened up the top-end as if I had clipped one of the resisters in the amp that Klaus Heine suggests to do. It is far and away the best tube in mine... against Philips (the AMperex were originally Philips by the way), Telefunken 806S 806s and 86, the Stock T-Funk tube, EH and others I don't even remember what brand now. But I've gone through them and have it down now. A barky voice gets the 1959 TF 806S, a thinner voice gets the 1960 TF 806s and a polished full voice gets the 1967 Amperex." Once, in another thread, I remarked that the 67 type gets more of its tone from the chosen tube than any other Neumann I've had and/or used. And you agreed. Trying a different tube will not lessen your microphone It will only show how much like a real 67 it actually is.
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Post by seawell on Jan 25, 2021 13:41:34 GMT -6
Got a chance to listen in the studio and I really like the darker tuning of the Serrano the best. For me, I feel like it drew out the most intimate vocal performance from you. I'm not sure if you felt a noticeable difference while singing through the mics but that's the impression I get from listening. The Soyuz just isn't my cup of tea. The Stam again sounds like a fantastic mic but I agree with what some others have mentioned here, there's a bit of low mid mud going on that didn't quite sit as well in these examples. Thanks for doing this Mark!
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 25, 2021 14:14:51 GMT -6
stam , Here's a copy and paste of my answer to a customer of yours about his SA67 microphone. Verbatim. "I have 15 EF86 variant tubes for my Neumann U67. Up until I got the matched pair of Amperex EF86s, the 1960 Telefunken EF806s (small-s) was my favorite cos it had the least amount of low-mid/mud distortion in the sound. But not only did the Amperex clean that up, it also opened up the top-end as if I had clipped one of the resisters in the amp that Klaus Heine suggests to do. It is far and away the best tube in mine... against Philips (the AMperex were originally Philips by the way), Telefunken 806S 806s and 86, the Stock T-Funk tube, EH and others I don't even remember what brand now. But I've gone through them and have it down now. A barky voice gets the 1959 TF 806S, a thinner voice gets the 1960 TF 806s and a polished full voice gets the 1967 Amperex." Once, in another thread, I remarked that the 67 type gets more of its tone from the chosen tube than any other Neumann I've had and/or used. And you agreed. Trying a different tube will not lessen your microphone It will only show how much like a real 67 it actually is. +1 Amperex. Going to simply agree and say that my 1958 Amperex just lives in my Neumann modded MK U67. It was the right tube from the moment I tried it. Bought another to have in the shoot, which I put in the mic to test and never bothered to switch back as they sounded so similar it didn't matter.
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