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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 12:01:02 GMT -6
I agree that there is a line we shouldn't cross when it comes to personal freedoms. America has some difficulty sorting this out...some folks are loathe to give up one aspect of freedom but totally happy to concede another, depending on their ideology, sensitivities and experience. I'd argue that this administration is continuing a long standing practice, upheld by US courts since 1905 and accepted by over 90% of the population every year. This is not a new power grab. As I've pointed out multiple times, the government was actually much more forceful in previous eras. I'm not advocating a return to that approach, just pointing out that it's not true to say this is unprecedented. When it comes to deadly communicable diseases, society has already faced this question and come to an acceptable conclusion. Vaccinate the population. Limit access to certain spaces for those who choose to remain unvaccinated during a pandemic. We've done all of this before and have written it into state and federal laws and accepted it as a reasonable public health policy. Why do we need to re-learn this lesson? I don’t see anyone in this thread claiming that mandates are unprecedented. Maybe I missed it? Just not sure why you keep bringing it up. It doesn’t seem that anyone here is arguing that point. Several of us ARE arguing however, whether or not the mandates are good, bad, dangerous, beneficial etc. Another way to look at it is this, there have been horrible legal precedents in the past (like slavery, Jim Crow etc) but society changed, reconsidered what was considered “good” and overturned those. So saying “it’s already a precedent” doesn’t really speak to whether it was a “good precedent” or a precedent that should continue to hold weight. What may have been proper during the Spanish flu or small pox may not be acceptable now. The argument that the government did it before and nobody cared doesn’t really matter to someone like me…because we care now and our concerns are not being addressed by the higher ups. Fair question. I recall that being said but maybe I made an assumption that folks felt that they were unprecedented based on the comments made. If I'm wrong, I take it back and won't keep making that point. I'm all for questioning precedent...lots of examples of horrible practices. My comments are meant to address two questions: Is this administration going beyond previously accepted practices? No, it's not. Should we examine it? Sure, but not under false pretenses. Countless conservative figures are describing this as 'un-American' and 'unprecedented'. Maybe not you guys, but it's a widely shared sentiment and it's false. Is it beneficial to society? I say yes. I have no interest in returning to the pre-vaccine mandate era and I can't get my head around the idea that it might be a good idea to do so. If we have a simple and safe solution to rid ourselves of the personal and societal cost of communicable disease, I'm for it. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2021 12:04:08 GMT -6
Honest question: Why aren’t we mandating that people get their diabetes under control? I don’t know the numbers, but from my personal, anecdotal experience in the hospital, 90% of these people who are seriously ill have poorly controlled (or not controlled at all) diabetes.
It would not stop the spread of Covid, but it would greatly lesson the severity of it, which is to one extent or another is what vaccines do.
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 12:15:33 GMT -6
Honest question: Why aren’t we mandating that people get their diabetes under control? I don’t know the numbers, but from my personal, anecdotal experience in the hospital, 90% of these people who are seriously ill have poorly controlled (or not controlled at all) diabetes. It would not stop the spread of Covid, but it would greatly lesson the severity of it, which is to one extent or another is what vaccines do. I don't know the answer but my guess is that it's a much less efficient and reliable way to manage a pandemic. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 12:27:01 GMT -6
Honest question: Why aren’t we mandating that people get their diabetes under control? I don’t know the numbers, but from my personal, anecdotal experience in the hospital, 90% of these people who are seriously ill have poorly controlled (or not controlled at all) diabetes. It would not stop the spread of Covid, but it would greatly lesson the severity of it, which is to one extent or another is what vaccines do. I really like preventative care. No doubt there would be way less covid deaths if there were less obese people. |
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 14, 2021 14:14:24 GMT -6
Imagine if parents insisted in the name of liberty on sending their kids to preschool with peanut butter sandwiches, knowing there was an allergic child in the same classroom. Asking for natural immunity to be properly recognized is not being reckless like taking a peanut butter sandwich to school LOL...It's asking the powers that be to practice the science they claim to believe in. I haven't seen anyone here recommend or promote dangerous or reckless behavior. No one has said take your mask off...fweeeedom 🤣 You have to understand how foolish it sounds to most people that the narrative is now "we have to protect the vaccinated." There is a legitimate, data backed perspective for people with natural immunity to not get vaxxed or at most only get one shot. You're free to believe we're at a 300% higher case rate than a year ago solely due to the last stubborn 80 million that won't get vaccinated but would it not make sense that with cases being this high that there are quite a bit of vaccinated people still spreading this? A unifying approach would have said "hey guys we lifted mask mandates and other restrictions too soon, we're very sorry but we need to roll some of those back to protect us ALL." Instead of...it's all THEIR fault, get 'em! All emotions and politics aside, it isn't backed by science...that's the issue some of us are having. Seriously...what science says the people in the foreground are safe to go maskless but the dirty photogs and caterers in the background aren't:  HYPOCRISY like this...over and over again is a major problem for vaccine hesitancy. It's just so hard to take them seriously at this point. Except this is the red carpet photo op and once inside, guests had to be masked except while eating or drinking. This is more manufactured outrage...which is to be expected when aoc is involved. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 14:24:53 GMT -6
Asking for natural immunity to be properly recognized is not being reckless like taking a peanut butter sandwich to school LOL...It's asking the powers that be to practice the science they claim to believe in. I haven't seen anyone here recommend or promote dangerous or reckless behavior. No one has said take your mask off...fweeeedom 🤣 You have to understand how foolish it sounds to most people that the narrative is now "we have to protect the vaccinated." There is a legitimate, data backed perspective for people with natural immunity to not get vaxxed or at most only get one shot. You're free to believe we're at a 300% higher case rate than a year ago solely due to the last stubborn 80 million that won't get vaccinated but would it not make sense that with cases being this high that there are quite a bit of vaccinated people still spreading this? A unifying approach would have said "hey guys we lifted mask mandates and other restrictions too soon, we're very sorry but we need to roll some of those back to protect us ALL." Instead of...it's all THEIR fault, get 'em! All emotions and politics aside, it isn't backed by science...that's the issue some of us are having. Seriously...what science says the people in the foreground are safe to go maskless but the dirty photogs and caterers in the background aren't: HYPOCRISY like this...over and over again is a major problem for vaccine hesitancy. It's just so hard to take them seriously at this point. Except this is the red carpet photo op and once inside, guests had to be masked except while eating or drinking. This is more manufactured outrage...which is to be expected when aoc is involved. If you can’t put aside your political team long enough to understand how poor the optics are of this then I don’t know what to tell you… |
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Post by ericn on Sept 14, 2021 14:34:19 GMT -6
Insurance companies do everything they possibly can to avoid paying. If they have any legal ground for denying coverage for unvaccinated people they will do it in an instant. yes, they try all the time. But in this particular scenario I don’t see how they’d have any ground. You could literally cut your own arm off for fun and if you have insurance they’ll pay for it according to what your coverage is. It’s not rare, far from it. Most of healthcare is taking care of diseases directly caused by poor lifestyle choices. Not if you go in refuse service against dr’s Advice they don’t ! In most cases it’s hidden in the form they sign. Known a couple of people who were that stupid and found that they were suddenly on the hook when the collection letters showed up & know a couple of really good social workers who have explained to patients what will happen, they know enough to cover their assets and asses. |
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 14, 2021 16:55:52 GMT -6
Except this is the red carpet photo op and once inside, guests had to be masked except while eating or drinking. This is more manufactured outrage...which is to be expected when aoc is involved. If you can’t put aside your political team long enough to understand how poor the optics are of this then I don’t know what to tell you… It's a celebrity gala...the red carpet is part of the "thing", and it's being done safely. Getting in a huff about this is straight-up partisan baloney. I could just as easily say that if YOU can't put YOUR political team aside long enough to understand how this is cynical partisan ratfucking, I don't know what to tell you. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 17:33:24 GMT -6
If you can’t put aside your political team long enough to understand how poor the optics are of this then I don’t know what to tell you… It's a celebrity gala...the red carpet is part of the "thing", and it's being done safely. Getting in a huff about this is straight-up partisan baloney. I could just as easily say that if YOU can't put YOUR political team aside long enough to understand how this is cynical partisan ratfucking, I don't know what to tell you. If we're in the middle of a raging pandemic where we're having trouble with vaccine hesitancy and mask compliance is that a good time for a gala? Why would you not avoid even the slightest appearance of hypocrisy or mixed messaging? Walking around maskless(when the video started she was inside by the way) with a masked minion holding the train of your dress is not a good look. I had no idea AOC would be the trigger but that's making everything else make a lot more sense now. MY TEAM, by the way is the middle. My team is trying to filter through the b.s. and get to the actual truth. I will not defend someone even if I voted for them if they are a hypocrite or if they are doing a poor job. If it were just this event that would be one thing but it's not...it's a trend of hypocrisy and that is what's annoying. How about this performance for the cameras? There are people on the right doing dumb stuff and I have called them out when it has come up but at least I know where they stand! They are consistently saying dumb stuff they don't turn it on and off for the cameras LOL. P.S. This thread was actually doing a great job of avoiding politics until the tolerant left showed up 😜 |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 17:48:56 GMT -6
Except this is the red carpet photo op and once inside, guests had to be masked except while eating or drinking. This is more manufactured outrage...which is to be expected when aoc is involved. If you can’t put aside your political team long enough to understand how poor the optics are of this then I don’t know what to tell you… In my opinion Tim Pool is the perfect example of someone who has almost nothing to offer but division and outrage. More of the same from him. The actual situation was that the event required vaccination and masks to be worn indoors. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 17:59:45 GMT -6
It's a celebrity gala...the red carpet is part of the "thing", and it's being done safely. Getting in a huff about this is straight-up partisan baloney. I could just as easily say that if YOU can't put YOUR political team aside long enough to understand how this is cynical partisan ratfucking, I don't know what to tell you. If we're in the middle of a raging pandemic where we're having trouble with vaccine hesitancy and mask compliance is that a good time for a gala? Why would you not avoid even the slightest appearance of hypocrisy or mixed messaging? Walking around maskless(when the video started she was inside by the way) with a masked minion holding the train of your dress is not a good look. I had no idea AOC would be the trigger but that's making everything else make a lot more sense now. MY TEAM, by the way is the middle. My team is trying to filter through the b.s. and get to the actual truth. I will not defend someone even if I voted for them if they are a hypocrite or if they are doing a poor job. If it were just this event that would be one thing but it's not...it's a trend of hypocrisy and that is what's annoying. How about this performance for the cameras? There are people on the right doing dumb stuff and I have called them out when it has come up but at least I know where they stand! They are consistently saying dumb stuff they don't turn it on and off for the cameras LOL. P.S. This thread was actually doing a great job of avoiding politics until the tolerant left showed up 😜 If you see yourself as being in the center but you direct 99% of your frustration to your left, you're not in the center. The left has plenty of issues. AOC taking a mask off for a carefully planned photo shoot isn't one of them. |
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Post by Quint on Sept 14, 2021 18:07:35 GMT -6
If we're in the middle of a raging pandemic where we're having trouble with vaccine hesitancy and mask compliance is that a good time for a gala? Why would you not avoid even the slightest appearance of hypocrisy or mixed messaging? Walking around maskless(when the video started she was inside by the way) with a masked minion holding the train of your dress is not a good look. I had no idea AOC would be the trigger but that's making everything else make a lot more sense now. MY TEAM, by the way is the middle. My team is trying to filter through the b.s. and get to the actual truth. I will not defend someone even if I voted for them if they are a hypocrite or if they are doing a poor job. If it were just this event that would be one thing but it's not...it's a trend of hypocrisy and that is what's annoying. How about this performance for the cameras? There are people on the right doing dumb stuff and I have called them out when it has come up but at least I know where they stand! They are consistently saying dumb stuff they don't turn it on and off for the cameras LOL. P.S. This thread was actually doing a great job of avoiding politics until the tolerant left showed up 😜 If you see yourself as being in the center but you direct 99% of your frustration to your left, you're not in the center. The left has plenty of issues. AOC taking a mask off for a carefully planned photo shoot isn't one of them. I was about to say the same thing myself. I'm not really seeing anything centrist in any of Seawell's posts. It's all pretty much standard fare right wing stuff. Which is fine. We're all entitled to our political persuasions. But own it. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 18:23:56 GMT -6
If you see yourself as being in the center but you direct 99% of your frustration to your left, you're not in the center. The left has plenty of issues. AOC taking a mask off for a carefully planned photo shoot isn't one of them. I was about to say the same thing myself. I'm not really seeing anything centrist in any of Seawell's posts. It's all pretty much standard fare right wing stuff. Which is fine. We're all entitled to our political persuasions. But own it. In my view Josh seems quite reasonable and seems to aim for the middle of the road except when it comes to criticizing leadership. Red states are having a brutal time with covid and some of those leaders and media figures are literally telling people that covid is no big deal, don't wear masks, etc., but the problem is AOC taking a mask off for a photoshoot or Pelosi going to a private one on one hair appointment? Come on. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 18:24:18 GMT -6
Or maybe the left has moved so far away that the center looks like the right to them now? I can't control who's being hypocritical in regards to covid rules and regulations. I'll let someone who is better with words try and explain why it matters(he's another classic liberal by the way that got left by the left): greenwald.substack.com/p/the-masking-of-the-servant-class |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 18:47:22 GMT -6
Or maybe the left has moved so far away that the center looks like the right to them now? I can't control who's being hypocritical in regards to covid rules and regulations. I'll let someone who is better with words try and explain why it matters(he's another classic liberal by the way that got left by the left): greenwald.substack.com/p/the-masking-of-the-servant-classAOC didn't break any rules or regulations. This Greenwald article is classic. Take a reasonable question (Why isn't Newsom doing what he asked us to do?) and turn it into some crazy narrative about elites and their dehumanized servants. Somehow he forgets to criticize the optics of elite Princeton and Harvard alum Ted Cruz dashing off to Mexico while his state struggled through a severe crisis. Greenwald isn't a centrist, he's an opportunist. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 18:54:33 GMT -6
I was about to say the same thing myself. I'm not really seeing anything centrist in any of Seawell's posts. It's all pretty much standard fare right wing stuff. Which is fine. We're all entitled to our political persuasions. But own it. In my view Josh seems quite reasonable and seems to aim for the middle of the road except when it comes to criticizing leadership. Red states are having a brutal time with covid and some of those leaders and media figures are literally telling people that covid is no big deal, don't wear masks, etc., but the problem is AOC taking a mask off for a photoshoot or Pelosi going to a private one on one hair appointment? Come on. A hair appointment during a lock down when salons were ordered to be closed! That's an important detail. If you lived in San Francisco at that time you could not go to a hair appointment. It's not that she was some super spreader, it's that she's a hypocrite. Here's what I think you're not getting about my criticisms of leaders on the left... They are constantly doing things while others aren't allowed to do the same. That gives the impression that they either don't believe covid is serious or that they don't respect the people they are supposed to serve. If they left it at that I'd probably leave them alone but now that they've decided to demonize "the unvaccinated," that's where I have a problem. I mean look at this list, top 14 leaders breaking their own mandates and they are ALL dems: www.businessinsider.com/democratic-politicians-who-violated-covid-19-rules-guidance-list-2020-12#denver-mayor-michael-hancock-10I just said yesterday I don't like what the gov of Florida is doing overriding school mask mandates. I think it's the same thing he's criticizing the federal government of doing, just reversed. The difference is, he is consistent in what he believes and how he is trying to implement policy. He may be dead wrong but he isn't making rules and then breaking them when he thinks no one is looking. So yes, I don't like what I stated above but my particular gripe at the moment is hypocrisy. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2021 18:54:51 GMT -6
If you see yourself as being in the center but you direct 99% of your frustration to your left, you're not in the center. The left has plenty of issues. AOC taking a mask off for a carefully planned photo shoot isn't one of them. I was about to say the same thing myself. I'm not really seeing anything centrist in any of Seawell's posts. It's all pretty much standard fare right wing stuff. Which is fine. We're all entitled to our political persuasions. But own it. Seawells posts are “standard far right wing stuff”? Come on. He’s been very fare, holding a reasonable position in the middle, and recognizes the lunacy of both sides. Yeah he’s more critical of the leadership on the left, maybe that’s because the political leadership of this country is on the left. As for any criticisms of AOC…well she’s pretty outspoken and leans pretty hard left, so she’s kind of inviting the criticism don’t ya think? |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 18:56:46 GMT -6
Or maybe the left has moved so far away that the center looks like the right to them now? I can't control who's being hypocritical in regards to covid rules and regulations. I'll let someone who is better with words try and explain why it matters(he's another classic liberal by the way that got left by the left): greenwald.substack.com/p/the-masking-of-the-servant-classAOC didn't break any rules or regulations. This Greenwald article is classic. Take a reasonable question (Why isn't Newsom doing what he asked us to do?) and turn it into some crazy narrative about elites and their dehumanized servants. Somehow he forgets to criticize the optics of elite Princeton and Harvard alum Ted Cruz dashing off to Mexico while his state struggled through a severe crisis. Greenwald isn't a centrist, he's an opportunist. He's not a centrist, he's a liberal. He has fallen out of favor with some on the left because he has the balls to criticize his own party. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2021 18:57:46 GMT -6
If we're in the middle of a raging pandemic where we're having trouble with vaccine hesitancy and mask compliance is that a good time for a gala? Why would you not avoid even the slightest appearance of hypocrisy or mixed messaging? Walking around maskless(when the video started she was inside by the way) with a masked minion holding the train of your dress is not a good look. I had no idea AOC would be the trigger but that's making everything else make a lot more sense now. MY TEAM, by the way is the middle. My team is trying to filter through the b.s. and get to the actual truth. I will not defend someone even if I voted for them if they are a hypocrite or if they are doing a poor job. If it were just this event that would be one thing but it's not...it's a trend of hypocrisy and that is what's annoying. How about this performance for the cameras? There are people on the right doing dumb stuff and I have called them out when it has come up but at least I know where they stand! They are consistently saying dumb stuff they don't turn it on and off for the cameras LOL. P.S. This thread was actually doing a great job of avoiding politics until the tolerant left showed up 😜 If you see yourself as being in the center but you direct 99% of your frustration to your left, you're not in the center. The left has plenty of issues. AOC taking a mask off for a carefully planned photo shoot isn't one of them. So someone who is liberal can’t be critical of their own side? (Not saying seawell is liberal or not, he seems pretty moderate either way). I would hope that people would be critical of their political parties, it keeps things more honest that way. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 19:00:47 GMT -6
If you see yourself as being in the center but you direct 99% of your frustration to your left, you're not in the center. The left has plenty of issues. AOC taking a mask off for a carefully planned photo shoot isn't one of them. So someone who is liberal can’t be critical of their own side? (Not saying seawell is liberal or not, he seems pretty moderate either way). I would hope that people would be critical of their political parties, it keeps things more honest that way. No, I'm saying that if you think you're in the center but you think all of the problems are on the left, you're not in the center. I vote Dem but have lots to say about the left. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2021 19:04:49 GMT -6
So someone who is liberal can’t be critical of their own side? (Not saying seawell is liberal or not, he seems pretty moderate either way). I would hope that people would be critical of their political parties, it keeps things more honest that way. No, I'm saying that if you think you're in the center but you think all of the problems are on the left, you're not in the center. I vote Dem but have lots to say about the left. Well we’re talking about a fairly narrow set of things in this thread, Maybe in these issues Seawell has more gripes with the left than the right…but i personally wouldn’t presume to know what his feelings are across the political spectrum. If someone claims to be in the center I’ll take their word for it, unless there’s a preponderance of evidence that says otherwise. Which I don’t think you extrapolate from just this discussion. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 19:05:24 GMT -6
I will not allow you guys to mispoliticize me 🤣
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 19:10:35 GMT -6
No, I'm saying that if you think you're in the center but you think all of the problems are on the left, you're not in the center. I vote Dem but have lots to say about the left. Well we’re talking about a fairly narrow set of things in this thread, Maybe in these issues Seawell has more gripes with the left than the right…but i personally wouldn’t presume to know what his feelings are across the political spectrum. If someone claims to be in the center I’ll take their word for it, unless there’s a preponderance of evidence that says otherwise. Which I don’t think you extrapolate from just this discussion. This is exactly it ^ If we were allowed to discuss other issues here(and thank God we aren't!) you'd see it. It's pretty hilarious that anyone would say "own it" to me. My full name and mug is plastered all over the reviews section, I don't have the luxury of hiding behind an avatar and a username. Disagree with me all you want but not owning something or not being forthright is not something I'd think I'd be accused of. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 19:17:00 GMT -6
AOC didn't break any rules or regulations. This Greenwald article is classic. Take a reasonable question (Why isn't Newsom doing what he asked us to do?) and turn it into some crazy narrative about elites and their dehumanized servants. Somehow he forgets to criticize the optics of elite Princeton and Harvard alum Ted Cruz dashing off to Mexico while his state struggled through a severe crisis. Greenwald isn't a centrist, he's an opportunist. He's not a centrist, he's a liberal. He has fallen out of favor with some on the left because he has the balls to criticize his own party. Nah. People on the left criticize the left constantly. It's a great strength and weakness. Again, Glenn has an interesting point re: politicians not taking their own medicine but he's so blatantly one sided and completely overblown with his conclusions. As an aside, painting the left politicians as more 'elite' than the right is utterly and demonstrably ridiculous. Good example of hypocrisy right there. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 19:23:55 GMT -6
No, I'm saying that if you think you're in the center but you think all of the problems are on the left, you're not in the center. I vote Dem but have lots to say about the left. Well we’re talking about a fairly narrow set of things in this thread, Maybe in these issues Seawell has more gripes with the left than the right…but i personally wouldn’t presume to know what his feelings are across the political spectrum. If someone claims to be in the center I’ll take their word for it, unless there’s a preponderance of evidence that says otherwise. Which I don’t think you extrapolate from just this discussion. If you read back you'll see I said something very similar. Josh seems like he aims for the middle except when it comes to criticizing politicians and media responsibility through the covid crisis. In that regard, it's 99% the left's fault. Greenwald has lots to say about the cost and elitism of dem fundraising dinners, but he doesn't mention anything about Scalise offering a one on one coffee date for 100k. Nope, no hypocrisy there. |
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