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Post by LesC on Sept 13, 2021 22:13:47 GMT -6
OK, a serious answer, all my opinion only.
I've gotten two shots and I keep masking in public to protect other people. Maybe I've had it and I have natural immunity. I don't really care. If I eventually need a third shot, I'll get that too. I think because of the people who have not had covid and refuse to be vaccinated, this will probably become similar to the flu, with a shot for the latest variants every year. Maybe even combined with an annual flu shot. I'm quite prepared for that. The two colleges I work at have mandated vaccination for students and professors, no exceptions. I'm quite happy about that, though I'm still teaching remotely and probably will be for quite a while.
I particularly feel sorry for children going to school without the ability to get vaccinated. And I'm particulary upset by the governors who will do whatever they can to ensure that there are no mask mandates, no protection. I appreciate your perspective and I can certainly respect and understand almost any point of view on this because it has been difficult on us all in one way or another. I'm just curious, if the students and professors are all vaccinated then are you still teaching remotely because you're concerned about the vaccine's effectiveness? You don't have to answer of course, I'm just genuinely curious how other people are thinking/feeling about everything. Thank God the children haven't been the main target of this virus. Just for the record, I'm not a fan of a governor not allowing individual cities/school boards to decide what is best for them. In the same way the states have certain abilities to protect them from the federal government, I think that should flow down to individual cities/towns. I just citicized the Florida Governor ehrenebbage ! High five š The reason I'm continuing to teach online is because both my colleges have decided that at least till the end of 2021, the only courses that will be taught in classrooms are the ones that require special facilities, such as lab equipment.
I currently teach Unix/Linux and shell scripting, so there's absolutely no reason to be on-campus. The wonderful thing about this is I now have students attending from all around the world. I love teaching remotely, it saves me about 15 hours of driving weekly, and my students love it. The students in other parts of the world attend at strange hours, of course, though they have the choice of viewing my recorded lectures instead. The testing is great, because I can make the tests available at any time for a particular student if she can't attend because of sickness or having to go to work or whatever. I couldn't do that if I was teaching in a classroom. Of course, I've had to do a bunch of stuff to limit cheating, and I've found no more cheating than my previous 20+ years of classroom testing, and the distribution of marks is similar. I also find attendance is almost 100%, higher than classroom, because students don't have to drive or bus to school. Nothing but positives. I hope there will be an online teaching option ongoing, even if covid gets resolved. Sorry for the off-topic.
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Post by LesC on Sept 13, 2021 22:17:35 GMT -6
Oh, and I meant that vaccination is mandatory for anyone who has to go on-campus.
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Post by teejay on Sept 13, 2021 22:47:55 GMT -6
All states require proof of vaccination for children to attend school, but all states have at least one type of exemption. Schools cannot refuse admission to unvaccinated children/students who qualify under that state's exemption(s). 44 states plus D.C. allow religious exemptions. 15 states allow both religious exemptions and personal exemptions. 1 state allows personal exemptions that do not mention religion. 5 states allow only medical exemptions (CA, NY, ME, MS, WV). www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/28/nearly-all-states-allow-religious-exemptions-for-vaccinations/My wife is the Preschool Director for her school. The state requires all students to submit proof of vaccination upon enrollment, or to supply a properly completed religious or medical exemption form. The school is bound by state law to accept unvaccinated students with qualifying exemptions and cannot refuse their admission nor challenge their exemption. Vaccination status is confidential, and unvaccinated students are treated no differently from the vaccinated. She has several students each year whose parents utilize exemptions as is their lawful right to do. According to the CDC, there was something like a 97% vaccination rate for kindergarteners in 2019. Here's a summary of state requirements. Note that most states specify that exempted students can be excluded from school during outbreaks. www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/school-vaccinations.pdfMy point was, kids cannot be refused admission if they are either vaccinated or qualify under one or more of the exemptions. Obviously outbreaks are the rare exception, but that is an attendance issue not an admission issue. They will simply not be allowed to attend while the illness is apparent. And I can tell you that in my wife's classes there are always more than 3% unvaccinated...more like 10-25 percent. And in her 20 years of teaching she's never had one unvaccinated child be diagnosed with an associated illness. Food allergies and having EpiPen's on hand are the more common and larger issue.
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Post by dmo on Sept 13, 2021 23:22:41 GMT -6
"And in her 20 years of teaching she's never had one unvaccinated child be diagnosed with an associated illness. Food allergies and having EpiPen's on hand are the more common and larger issue."
The issue here is that the illnesses we require vaccination for have essentially been controlled in the US (ie - we reached local herd immuniity), and with the exception of rare occasional outbreaks, the risk of exposure to any individual unvaccinated child is extremely small. You can't extrapolate that to imply that having 10-25% unvaccinated in a class for an active highly contagious pandemic viral process is low risk. The situations are not comparable. The decrease in overall vaccination status for measles and other common childhood illnesses is why we are seeing a resurgence of these diseases in the US.
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Post by rowmat on Sept 14, 2021 0:10:10 GMT -6
I think the point is not whether there is legal precedent for vax mandates, or if itās been done in the past or whether itās novel or just business as usual, it is āis it good or bad for societyā? I venture to say that most people say the mandates are good, but that depends on what type of āgoodā youāre looking at. Is it good for public health? Yeah probably. Is it good public policy? Probably not, itās a bureaucratic nightmare, and incredibly divisive. Is it a good or worthwhile encroachment on personal liberty? Maybe yes, maybe no, depends on your world view. From my perspective, Iāve watched from the front row as decisions have been made, over and over, based on fear, public policy, and for political gain. Iāve seen almost 100% of the attention being centered on the harms of Covid, and almost no attention being paid to harm the lockdowns caused. No one paying attention to the suicide rate, to the rate of depression, child abuse, spousal abuse, drug addiction, over doses, the crime rate etc. not to mention peoples livelihoods destroyed. So Iām more than a little worried and skeptical of a government that grants itself another extended power that it will never give up. We have the patriot act, the national defense authorization act, domestic spying, corporate censorship and deplatforming of unorthodox views. It just gets worse and worse. And at every step of the way these things have been done āfor our own goodā. If that doesnāt concern people I donāt know what will. I know full well the dangers and damage of this virus, but for me, weāll I guess Covid doesnāt scare me more than tonados, earthquakes, brush fires, flash floods, hurricanes, aneurysms, heart attacks etc. itās a force of nature, and while any one of these things may kill me, my world view is such that Iām far more concerned about how I live rather than how I die. To that end, every time the government grants itself more power Iām concerned. Here in Australia the South Australian government has introduced a new app which is mandatory for those ordered into home quarantine self isolation. QUOTE: ā Those taking part in the Home Quarantine SA program are required to download the SA government's home quarantine app, which uses geo-location and facial recognition software to track those in quarantine.
The app contacts people at random, asking them to provide proof of their location within 15 minutes.
If a person cannot successfully verify their location or identity when requested, SA Health will notify SA Police who will conduct an in-person check on the person in quarantine.ā END QUOTE In Australia we are now required to use QR check-in codes at every place we visit such as the local supermarket, gas station, pharmacy etc. This is logged on a govt database and is supposed to be used for COVID transmission contact tracing. However there is an increasing number of incidents where police have accessed this data without obtaining warrants in order to track persons of interest unrelated to the pandemic. The problem is we know that once this kind of surveillance/tracking technology is introduced it is never going away and will be repurposed beyond COVID. www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-10/covid-19-home-quarantine-facial-recognition-app-divides-opinion/100446812 |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 0:14:40 GMT -6
I think the point is not whether there is legal precedent for vax mandates, or if itās been done in the past or whether itās novel or just business as usual, it is āis it good or bad for societyā? I venture to say that most people say the mandates are good, but that depends on what type of āgoodā youāre looking at. Is it good for public health? Yeah probably. Is it good public policy? Probably not, itās a bureaucratic nightmare, and incredibly divisive. Is it a good or worthwhile encroachment on personal liberty? Maybe yes, maybe no, depends on your world view. From my perspective, Iāve watched from the front row as decisions have been made, over and over, based on fear, public policy, and for political gain. Iāve seen almost 100% of the attention being centered on the harms of Covid, and almost no attention being paid to harm the lockdowns caused. No one paying attention to the suicide rate, to the rate of depression, child abuse, spousal abuse, drug addiction, over doses, the crime rate etc. not to mention peoples livelihoods destroyed. So Iām more than a little worried and skeptical of a government that grants itself another extended power that it will never give up. We have the patriot act, the national defense authorization act, domestic spying, corporate censorship and deplatforming of unorthodox views. It just gets worse and worse. And at every step of the way these things have been done āfor our own goodā. If that doesnāt concern people I donāt know what will. I know full well the dangers and damage of this virus, but for me, weāll I guess Covid doesnāt scare me more than tonados, earthquakes, brush fires, flash floods, hurricanes, aneurysms, heart attacks etc. itās a force of nature, and while any one of these things may kill me, my world view is such that Iām far more concerned about how I live rather than how I die. To that end, every time the government grants itself more power Iām concerned. Here in Australia the South Australian government has introduced a new app which is mandatory for those ordered into home quarantine self isolation. QUOTE: ā Those taking part in the Home Quarantine SA program are required to download the SA government's home quarantine app, which uses geo-location and facial recognition software to track those in quarantine.
The app contacts people at random, asking them to provide proof of their location within 15 minutes.
If a person cannot successfully verify their location or identity when requested, SA Health will notify SA Police who will conduct an in-person check on the person in quarantine.ā END QUOTE In Australia we are now required to use QR check-in codes at every place we visit such as the local supermarket, gas station, pharmacy etc. This is logged on a govt database and is supposed to be used for COVID transmission contact tracing. However there is an increasing number of incidents where police have accessed this data without obtaining warrants in order to track persons of interest unrelated to the pandemic. The problem is we know that once this kind of surveillance/tracking technology is introduced it is never going away and will be repurposed beyond COVID. www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-10/covid-19-home-quarantine-facial-recognition-app-divides-opinion/100446812I didn't realize you were in Australia. Prayers my friend! I feel bad for complaining about what's happening in the USA compared to what you guys are experiencing. šš¼ |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 6:17:57 GMT -6
OK, a serious answer, all my opinion only.
I've gotten two shots and I keep masking in public to protect other people. Maybe I've had it and I have natural immunity. I don't really care. If I eventually need a third shot, I'll get that too. I think because of the people who have not had covid and refuse to be vaccinated, this will probably become similar to the flu, with a shot for the latest variants every year. Maybe even combined with an annual flu shot. I'm quite prepared for that. The two colleges I work at have mandated vaccination for students and professors, no exceptions. I'm quite happy about that, though I'm still teaching remotely and probably will be for quite a while.
I particularly feel sorry for children going to school without the ability to get vaccinated. And I'm particulary upset by the governors who will do whatever they can to ensure that there are no mask mandates, no protection. I appreciate your perspective and I can certainly respect and understand almost any point of view on this because it has been difficult on us all in one way or another. I'm just curious, if the students and professors are all vaccinated then are you still teaching remotely because you're concerned about the vaccine's effectiveness? You don't have to answer of course, I'm just genuinely curious how other people are thinking/feeling about everything. Thank God the children haven't been the main target of this virus. Just for the record, I'm not a fan of a governor not allowing individual cities/school boards to decide what is best for them. In the same way the states have certain abilities to protect them from the federal government, I think that should flow down to individual cities/towns. I just citicized the Florida Governor ehrenebbage ! High five š Haha! |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 7:31:06 GMT -6
I think the point is not whether there is legal precedent for vax mandates, or if itās been done in the past or whether itās novel or just business as usual, it is āis it good or bad for societyā? I venture to say that most people say the mandates are good, but that depends on what type of āgoodā youāre looking at. Is it good for public health? Yeah probably. Is it good public policy? Probably not, itās a bureaucratic nightmare, and incredibly divisive. Is it a good or worthwhile encroachment on personal liberty? Maybe yes, maybe no, depends on your world view. From my perspective, Iāve watched from the front row as decisions have been made, over and over, based on fear, public policy, and for political gain. Iāve seen almost 100% of the attention being centered on the harms of Covid, and almost no attention being paid to harm the lockdowns caused. No one paying attention to the suicide rate, to the rate of depression, child abuse, spousal abuse, drug addiction, over doses, the crime rate etc. not to mention peoples livelihoods destroyed. So Iām more than a little worried and skeptical of a government that grants itself another extended power that it will never give up. We have the patriot act, the national defense authorization act, domestic spying, corporate censorship and deplatforming of unorthodox views. It just gets worse and worse. And at every step of the way these things have been done āfor our own goodā. If that doesnāt concern people I donāt know what will. I know full well the dangers and damage of this virus, but for me, weāll I guess Covid doesnāt scare me more than tonados, earthquakes, brush fires, flash floods, hurricanes, aneurysms, heart attacks etc. itās a force of nature, and while any one of these things may kill me, my world view is such that Iām far more concerned about how I live rather than how I die. To that end, every time the government grants itself more power Iām concerned. Vaccines haven't been particularly divisive in recent times, until now. As I mentioned, there's usually a 90% or higher vaccination rate among kids entering school. I don't disagree with your feelings about personal freedoms and focusing on live vs death. My view is that we enjoy a higher quality of life and more personal freedom than at any other point in human history, in part because we've reduced the danger of communicable disease to the point where we rarely even think about it until now. I don't want the government dictating where I live, what I do for work, who I love, how I pray, etc. but I feel like life is better when I don't have to boil every glass of water I drink, you know? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the personal liberty stance doesn't take into account how life would be if we hadn't found a way to effectively manage communicable disease. What if there were still TB and polio outbreaks on a regular basis? That was a thing for most of human history and people decided that it sucked. In my view they were right, and I'm glad that I can just go about my business without dealing with it. I don't live in fear of fires. I barely think about it day to day. But I also think it sucks that we're dealing with hazardous air quality a couple weeks every year now. It doesn't feel very free to have to stay indoors during my favorite part of the year. Doesn't feel free to have my favorite camping spots shut down or destroyed every year. Also kinda sad that entire communities burn to the ground. Not only does it make for hundreds of personal tragedies, it is a drain on our resources and it devastates the economy of the affected communities. I don't live in fear of fires, but if I could take a simple, free, safe action to virtually eliminate this from our society, why wouldn't I do it? Sorry, rural Oregon...I know I could make a tiny personal sacrifice to eliminate this issue but I'd rather keep my 'freedom' to live with hazardous air every year and my house is pretty safe, so you folks are on your own. I can't be bothered. |
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Post by teejay on Sept 14, 2021 8:13:51 GMT -6
"And in her 20 years of teaching she's never had one unvaccinated child be diagnosed with an associated illness. Food allergies and having EpiPen's on hand are the more common and larger issue."
The issue here is that the illnesses we require vaccination for have essentially been controlled in the US (ie - we reached local herd immuniity), and with the exception of rare occasional outbreaks, the risk of exposure to any individual unvaccinated child is extremely small. You can't extrapolate that to imply that having 10-25% unvaccinated in a class for an active highly contagious pandemic viral process is low risk. The situations are not comparable. The decrease in overall vaccination status for measles and other common childhood illnesses is why we are seeing a resurgence of these diseases in the US.
I did not extrapolate. I simply made a statement about historical data in relation to the previous statement regarding current vaccination requirements for school admission. Obviously with the exception of last year, this strain of COVID was not previously a consideration or factor. No admission requirements have changed as of yet due to COVID. With all due respect, the implication is yours. |
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 14, 2021 8:51:08 GMT -6
Imagine if parents insisted in the name of liberty on sending their kids to preschool with peanut butter sandwiches, knowing there was an allergic child in the same classroom.
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2021 8:55:08 GMT -6
Imagine if parents insisted in the name of liberty on sending their kids to preschool with peanut butter sandwiches, knowing there was an allergic child in the same classroom. Theres a difference between exercising your free choice and deliberately and specifically putting someone in danger. |
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Post by dmo on Sept 14, 2021 9:20:33 GMT -6
teejay - Not looking to argue, I'll grant the interpretation is on my end. I have seen similar statements on other FB threads where folks clearly don't understand or appreciate the nuance of context in evaluating that historical data - so I am probably a little over sensitive at the moment.
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Post by bgrotto on Sept 14, 2021 9:21:27 GMT -6
Imagine if parents insisted in the name of liberty on sending their kids to preschool with peanut butter sandwiches, knowing there was an allergic child in the same classroom. Theres a difference between exercising your free choice and deliberately and specifically putting someone in danger. We certainly agree on that! |
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2021 10:01:22 GMT -6
I think the point is not whether there is legal precedent for vax mandates, or if itās been done in the past or whether itās novel or just business as usual, it is āis it good or bad for societyā? I venture to say that most people say the mandates are good, but that depends on what type of āgoodā youāre looking at. Is it good for public health? Yeah probably. Is it good public policy? Probably not, itās a bureaucratic nightmare, and incredibly divisive. Is it a good or worthwhile encroachment on personal liberty? Maybe yes, maybe no, depends on your world view. From my perspective, Iāve watched from the front row as decisions have been made, over and over, based on fear, public policy, and for political gain. Iāve seen almost 100% of the attention being centered on the harms of Covid, and almost no attention being paid to harm the lockdowns caused. No one paying attention to the suicide rate, to the rate of depression, child abuse, spousal abuse, drug addiction, over doses, the crime rate etc. not to mention peoples livelihoods destroyed. So Iām more than a little worried and skeptical of a government that grants itself another extended power that it will never give up. We have the patriot act, the national defense authorization act, domestic spying, corporate censorship and deplatforming of unorthodox views. It just gets worse and worse. And at every step of the way these things have been done āfor our own goodā. If that doesnāt concern people I donāt know what will. I know full well the dangers and damage of this virus, but for me, weāll I guess Covid doesnāt scare me more than tonados, earthquakes, brush fires, flash floods, hurricanes, aneurysms, heart attacks etc. itās a force of nature, and while any one of these things may kill me, my world view is such that Iām far more concerned about how I live rather than how I die. To that end, every time the government grants itself more power Iām concerned. Here in Australia the South Australian government has introduced a new app which is mandatory for those ordered into home quarantine self isolation. QUOTE: ā Those taking part in the Home Quarantine SA program are required to download the SA government's home quarantine app, which uses geo-location and facial recognition software to track those in quarantine.
The app contacts people at random, asking them to provide proof of their location within 15 minutes.
If a person cannot successfully verify their location or identity when requested, SA Health will notify SA Police who will conduct an in-person check on the person in quarantine.ā END QUOTE In Australia we are now required to use QR check-in codes at every place we visit such as the local supermarket, gas station, pharmacy etc. This is logged on a govt database and is supposed to be used for COVID transmission contact tracing. However there is an increasing number of incidents where police have accessed this data without obtaining warrants in order to track persons of interest unrelated to the pandemic. The problem is we know that once this kind of surveillance/tracking technology is introduced it is never going away and will be repurposed beyond COVID. www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-10/covid-19-home-quarantine-facial-recognition-app-divides-opinion/100446812Thats awful, Iām sorry to hear that. Thatās exactly the type of scenario Iām hoping we avoid here in the states. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2021 10:15:16 GMT -6
I think the point is not whether there is legal precedent for vax mandates, or if itās been done in the past or whether itās novel or just business as usual, it is āis it good or bad for societyā? I venture to say that most people say the mandates are good, but that depends on what type of āgoodā youāre looking at. Is it good for public health? Yeah probably. Is it good public policy? Probably not, itās a bureaucratic nightmare, and incredibly divisive. Is it a good or worthwhile encroachment on personal liberty? Maybe yes, maybe no, depends on your world view. From my perspective, Iāve watched from the front row as decisions have been made, over and over, based on fear, public policy, and for political gain. Iāve seen almost 100% of the attention being centered on the harms of Covid, and almost no attention being paid to harm the lockdowns caused. No one paying attention to the suicide rate, to the rate of depression, child abuse, spousal abuse, drug addiction, over doses, the crime rate etc. not to mention peoples livelihoods destroyed. So Iām more than a little worried and skeptical of a government that grants itself another extended power that it will never give up. We have the patriot act, the national defense authorization act, domestic spying, corporate censorship and deplatforming of unorthodox views. It just gets worse and worse. And at every step of the way these things have been done āfor our own goodā. If that doesnāt concern people I donāt know what will. I know full well the dangers and damage of this virus, but for me, weāll I guess Covid doesnāt scare me more than tonados, earthquakes, brush fires, flash floods, hurricanes, aneurysms, heart attacks etc. itās a force of nature, and while any one of these things may kill me, my world view is such that Iām far more concerned about how I live rather than how I die. To that end, every time the government grants itself more power Iām concerned. Vaccines haven't been particularly divisive in recent times, until now.Ā As I mentioned, there's usually a 90% or higher vaccination rate among kids entering school.Ā Ā I don't disagree with your feelings about personal freedoms and focusing on live vs death.Ā My view is that we enjoy a higher quality of life and more personal freedom than at any other point in human history, in part because we've reduced the danger of communicable disease to the point where we rarely even think about it until now.Ā I don't want the government dictating where I live, what I do for work, who I love, how I pray, etc. but I feel like life is better when I don't have to boil every glass of water I drink, you know? Ā Ā Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the personal liberty stance doesn't take into account how life would be if we hadn't found a way to effectively manage communicable disease.Ā What if there were still TB and polio outbreaks on a regular basis?Ā That was a thing for most of human history and people decided that it sucked.Ā In my view they were right, and I'm glad that I can just go about my business without dealing with it.Ā Ā Ā I don't live in fear of fires.Ā I barely think about it day to day.Ā But I also think it sucks that we're dealing with hazardous air quality a couple weeks every year now.Ā It doesn't feel very free to have to stay indoors during my favorite part of the year.Ā Doesn't feel free to have my favorite camping spots shut down or destroyed every year.Ā Also kinda sad that entire communities burn to the ground.Ā Not only does it make for hundreds of personal tragedies, it is a drain on our resources and it devastates the economy of the affected communities.Ā I don't live in fear of fires, but if I could take a simple, free, safe action to virtually eliminate this from our society, why wouldn't I do it?Ā Ā Ā Sorry, rural Oregon...I know I could make a tiny personal sacrifice to eliminate this issue but I'd rather keep my 'freedom' to live with hazardous air every year and my house is pretty safe, so you folks are on your own.Ā I can't be bothered. The thing is, Iām not suggesting we do nothing. Iām not suggesting people disregard public safety or that there isnāt a social contract or that we donāt have social responsibilities. In fact I think your responsibility is in direct portion to the amount of freedom you have. They go hand in hand. Iām saying the federal gov is over reaching, and demonstrating that they donāt care (and are certainly not considering) our personal freedom. I saying that the powers they grant themselves will never be given up. Iām saying that the exemptions for the vax arenāt enough or arenāt being properly considered or offered. Iām saying that the repercussions for not being vaxed are too much. Iām saying there is an anti science approach when you donāt consider natural immunity. There could have easily been a middle ground. There could have been a more equitable mandate. There could have been better leadership from the start, at all levels of government. Both sides could have worked together to make this a non partisan issue instead of them both sowing mistrust in our institutions. You can blame it on messaging but I think the current administration is being very transparent with their messagingā¦and that message is they donāt care to even consider personal liberty. Thatās concerning to me. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 10:43:29 GMT -6
Imagine if parents insisted in the name of liberty on sending their kids to preschool with peanut butter sandwiches, knowing there was an allergic child in the same classroom. Asking for natural immunity to be properly recognized is not being reckless like taking a peanut butter sandwich to school LOL...It's asking the powers that be to practice the science they claim to believe in. I haven't seen anyone here recommend or promote dangerous or reckless behavior. No one has said take your mask off...fweeeedom š¤£ You have to understand how foolish it sounds to most people that the narrative is now "we have to protect the vaccinated." There is a legitimate, data backed perspective for people with natural immunity to not get vaxxed or at most only get one shot. You're free to believe we're at a 300% higher case rate than a year ago solely due to the last stubborn 80 million that won't get vaccinated but would it not make sense that with cases being this high that there are quite a bit of vaccinated people still spreading this? A unifying approach would have said "hey guys we lifted mask mandates and other restrictions too soon, we're very sorry but we need to roll some of those back to protect us ALL." Instead of...it's all THEIR fault, get 'em! All emotions and politics aside, it isn't backed by science...that's the issue some of us are having. Seriously...what science says the people in the foreground are safe to go maskless but the dirty photogs and caterers in the background aren't:  HYPOCRISY like this...over and over again is a major problem for vaccine hesitancy. It's just so hard to take them seriously at this point. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 14, 2021 10:55:56 GMT -6
Our current situation is far more about politics than it is about medical science or protecting anyone from a virus. What rowmat shared above is chilling and should scare any thinking person far more than Covid. My personal $0.02. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 11:01:23 GMT -6
I agree that there is a line we shouldn't cross when it comes to personal freedoms. America has some difficulty sorting this out...some folks are loathe to give up one aspect of freedom but totally happy to concede another, depending on their ideology, sensitivities and experience.
I'd argue that this administration is continuing a long standing practice, upheld by US courts since 1905 and accepted by over 90% of the population every year. This is not a new power grab. As I've pointed out multiple times, the government was actually much more forceful in previous eras. I'm not advocating a return to that approach, just pointing out that it's not true to say this is unprecedented.
When it comes to deadly communicable diseases, society has already faced this question and come to an acceptable conclusion. Vaccinate the population. Limit access to certain spaces for those who choose to remain unvaccinated during a pandemic. We've done all of this before and have written it into state and federal laws and accepted it as a reasonable public health policy. Why do we need to re-learn this lesson?
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 11:21:50 GMT -6
Imagine if parents insisted in the name of liberty on sending their kids to preschool with peanut butter sandwiches, knowing there was an allergic child in the same classroom. Asking for natural immunity to be properly recognized is not being reckless like taking a peanut butter sandwich to school LOL...It's asking the powers that be to practice the science they claim to believe in. I haven't seen anyone here recommend or promote dangerous or reckless behavior. No one has said take your mask off...fweeeedom š¤£ You have to understand how foolish it sounds to most people that the narrative is now "we have to protect the vaccinated." There is a legitimate, data backed perspective for people with natural immunity to not get vaxxed or at most only get one shot. You're free to believe we're at a 300% higher case rate than a year ago solely due to the last stubborn 80 million that won't get vaccinated but would it not make sense that with cases being this high that there are quite a bit of vaccinated people still spreading this? A unifying approach would have said "hey guys we lifted mask mandates and other restrictions too soon, we're very sorry but we need to roll some of those back to protect us ALL." Instead of...it's all THEIR fault, get 'em! All emotions and politics aside, it isn't backed by science...that's the issue some of us are having. Seriously...what science says the people in the foreground are safe to go maskless but the dirty photogs and caterers in the background aren't: HYPOCRISY like this...over and over again is a major problem for vaccine hesitancy. It's just so hard to take them seriously at this point. It seems like you're focused on one aspect of the issue and are willing to overlook all nuance when it supports your particular view. But when anyone points out how devastating it is for other powerful and influential people to flat out deny covid is a thing, or to do everything they can to stand in the way of progress, you say 'oh, I just don't pay attention to those people'. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 11:30:22 GMT -6
Imagine if parents insisted in the name of liberty on sending their kids to preschool with peanut butter sandwiches, knowing there was an allergic child in the same classroom. Asking for natural immunity to be properly recognized is not being reckless like taking a peanut butter sandwich to school LOL...It's asking the powers that be to practice the science they claim to believe in. What do you make of this? www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 11:32:16 GMT -6
Asking for natural immunity to be properly recognized is not being reckless like taking a peanut butter sandwich to school LOL...It's asking the powers that be to practice the science they claim to believe in. I haven't seen anyone here recommend or promote dangerous or reckless behavior. No one has said take your mask off...fweeeedom š¤£ You have to understand how foolish it sounds to most people that the narrative is now "we have to protect the vaccinated." There is a legitimate, data backed perspective for people with natural immunity to not get vaxxed or at most only get one shot. You're free to believe we're at a 300% higher case rate than a year ago solely due to the last stubborn 80 million that won't get vaccinated but would it not make sense that with cases being this high that there are quite a bit of vaccinated people still spreading this? A unifying approach would have said "hey guys we lifted mask mandates and other restrictions too soon, we're very sorry but we need to roll some of those back to protect us ALL." Instead of...it's all THEIR fault, get 'em! All emotions and politics aside, it isn't backed by science...that's the issue some of us are having. Seriously...what science says the people in the foreground are safe to go maskless but the dirty photogs and caterers in the background aren't: HYPOCRISY like this...over and over again is a major problem for vaccine hesitancy. It's just so hard to take them seriously at this point. It seems like you're focused on one aspect of the issue and are willing to overlook all nuance when it supports your particular view. But when anyone points out how devastating it is for other powerful and influential people to flat out deny covid is a thing, or to do everything they can to stand in the way of progress, you say 'oh, I just don't pay attention to those people'. Nice try but I just criticized De-Santis yesterday. Here's a better question, why do you defend this kind of behavior just because they are on your side? We should all be calling out hypocritical behavior. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2021 11:35:26 GMT -6
I agree that there is a line we shouldn't cross when it comes to personal freedoms. America has some difficulty sorting this out...some folks are loathe to give up one aspect of freedom but totally happy to concede another, depending on their ideology, sensitivities and experience. I'd argue that this administration is continuing a long standing practice, upheld by US courts since 1905 and accepted by over 90% of the population every year. This is not a new power grab. As I've pointed out multiple times, the government was actually much more forceful in previous eras. I'm not advocating a return to that approach, just pointing out that it's not true to say this is unprecedented. When it comes to deadly communicable diseases, society has already faced this question and come to an acceptable conclusion. Vaccinate the population. Limit access to certain spaces for those who choose to remain unvaccinated during a pandemic. We've done all of this before and have written it into state and federal laws and accepted it as a reasonable public health policy. Why do we need to re-learn this lesson? I donāt see anyone in this thread claiming that mandates are unprecedented. Maybe I missed it? Just not sure why you keep bringing it up. It doesnāt seem that anyone here is arguing that point. Several of us ARE arguing however, whether or not the mandates are good, bad, dangerous, beneficial etc. Another way to look at it is this, there have been horrible legal precedents in the past (like slavery, Jim Crow etc) but society changed, reconsidered what was considered āgoodā and overturned those. So saying āitās already a precedentā doesnāt really speak to whether it was a āgood precedentā or a precedent that should continue to hold weight. What may have been proper during the Spanish flu or small pox may not be acceptable now. The argument that the government did it before and nobody cared doesnāt really matter to someone like meā¦because we care now and our concerns are not being addressed by the higher ups. |
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Post by seawell on Sept 14, 2021 11:40:08 GMT -6
It is much smaller than the Israel study but I certainly take it into consideration. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 14, 2021 11:40:42 GMT -6
That study seems to be comparing people who had Covid and didnāt get the vax with people who had Covid and did get the vax. Which is not what where saying at all. Now that page wasnāt super clear on the conditions of the test group, the language of it was a little clumsy so maybe Iām wrong. If thatās the case then we all need to reconsider, but it appears to show exactly what the Israeli studies show. So nothing new there. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Sept 14, 2021 11:57:51 GMT -6
Duplicate post.
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