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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 17, 2021 10:18:03 GMT -6
Just starting to check this out and it's really interesting. A lot of what he says could be applied to people on both sides of this conversation. I don't think so because the media/main stream narrative has to be in play here and that is only going one particular way. It is interesting though and not meant to offend anyone or anything like that. It's just something I've been tracking for a while now. Edited to add...I do agree there is a certain amount of something crazy going on for both sides, it's just that for his particular theory I think it has to be supported as mainstream or accepted which doesn't apply to the voices that are challenging the mainstream covid narrative. Not to say there aren't shenanigans all around though, I agree with you there 👍🏼 I'm not sure how to define media anymore. Most widely heard podcasts? Most viewed 'news' networks? Social media posts with the most engagements? Taking this theory at face value, who are the players? Are they coordinating with bad intent? What are their motivations? How would one explain the holes in the theory? Also, importantly, how else would the world overcome a global pandemic effectively and efficiently? Doesn't the situation require a coordinated effort to distribute information and medicine as quickly as possible? From my admittedly biased perspective, I look at the whole anti-vaccine/pro ivermectin/anti masks push through this lens and it explains a lot. |
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Post by seawell on Aug 17, 2021 11:05:17 GMT -6
I don't think so because the media/main stream narrative has to be in play here and that is only going one particular way. It is interesting though and not meant to offend anyone or anything like that. It's just something I've been tracking for a while now. Edited to add...I do agree there is a certain amount of something crazy going on for both sides, it's just that for his particular theory I think it has to be supported as mainstream or accepted which doesn't apply to the voices that are challenging the mainstream covid narrative. Not to say there aren't shenanigans all around though, I agree with you there 👍🏼 I'm not sure how to define media anymore. Most widely heard podcasts? Most viewed 'news' networks? Social media posts with the most engagements? Taking this theory at face value, who are the players? Are they coordinating? What are their motivations? How would one explain the holes in the theory? Also, importantly, how else would the world overcome a global pandemic effectively and efficiently? From my admittedly biased perspective, I look at the whole anti-vaccine/pro ivermectin/anti masks push through this lens and it explains a lot. I get what you're saying but the theory only works for one side in this particular debate. No one got uninvited to a family function for being vaccinated, you know what I mean? 🤣 Even in this particular thread, one side likes to frame the discussion as only being able to occur within the confines of the mainstream medical/media narrative. Anything outside of that doesn't just get challenged, it usually devolves into ad hominem(I fully expect someone to come along with an attack on Prof. Desmet any minute now). I can't just be cautious of THIS vaccine, I have to be labelled as an "anti vaxxer," even though that's not the case at all. There has been hole after hole in the covid narrative from the very start. For whatever reason, some people see it and others have explained away those holes. I think the theory laid out by Prof. Desmet possibly explains why. I've said it before but I think it's worth repeating, I believed in exactly ZERO what would be considered "conspiracy theories' before covid..none...not QAnon...not flat earth...not a fake moon landing...nothing. Again...not meant to offend, I hope it isn't coming across that way! Think about this though, what if the same skepticism and effort that has been put into doubting VAERS was put into the PCR Test and how Covid deaths have been classified? What if we took the same look at Dr. Fauci's history, warts and all that we've done with Dr. Malone for example? What if the fact that WHO leader "Doctor" Tedros is not a medical doctor bothered us as much as the fact that Geert vanden Bossche isn't a medical doctor? In other words, let's not make excuses for either side. Hold them all to the fire and demand the most transparency for us all so that we can make the most educated decision....and stop attacking each other! I wonder how different things might be if that were the case? |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 17, 2021 11:52:25 GMT -6
I'm not sure how to define media anymore. Most widely heard podcasts? Most viewed 'news' networks? Social media posts with the most engagements? Taking this theory at face value, who are the players? Are they coordinating? What are their motivations? How would one explain the holes in the theory? Also, importantly, how else would the world overcome a global pandemic effectively and efficiently? From my admittedly biased perspective, I look at the whole anti-vaccine/pro ivermectin/anti masks push through this lens and it explains a lot. I get what you're saying but the theory only works for one side in this particular debate. No one got uninvited to a family function for being vaccinated, you know what I mean? 🤣 Even in this particular thread, one side likes to frame the discussion as only being able to occur within the confines of the mainstream medical/media narrative. Anything outside of that doesn't just get challenged, it usually devolves into ad hominem(I fully expect someone to come along with an attack on Prof. Desmet any minute now). I can't just be cautious of THIS vaccine, I have to be labelled as an "anti vaxxer," even though that's not the case at all. There has been hole after hole in the covid narrative from the very start. For whatever reason, some people see it and others have explained away those holes. I think the theory laid out by Prof. Desmet possibly explains why. I've said it before but I think it's worth repeating, I believed in exactly ZERO what would be considered "conspiracy theories' before covid..none...not QAnon...not flat earth...not a fake moon landing...nothing. Again...not meant to offend, I hope it isn't coming across that way! Think about this though, what if the same skepticism and effort that has been put into doubting VAERS was put into the PCR Test and how Covid deaths have been classified? What if we took the same look at Dr. Fauci's history, warts and all that we've done with Dr. Malone for example? What if the fact that WHO leader "Doctor" Tedros is not a medical doctor bothered us as much as the fact that Geert vanden Bossche isn't a medical doctor? In other words, let's not make excuses for either side. Hold them all to the fire and demand the most transparency for us all so that we can make the most educated decision....and stop attacking each other! I wonder how different things might be if that were the case? No offense taken here. I'm always up for examining how I come to my own conclusions. I think a lot of what you're saying makes sense, and I see how folks on my side of the debate get things wrong and struggle to self-correct. I don't think anyone should get a free pass re: transparency. You bring up an interesting example though, and it's one which makes my point very well. VAERS...You see it as an effort being made to doubt VAERS, but I'd argue that it's an effort to doubt the people who are misusing it, intentionally or otherwise. VAERS itself tells us that it is simply a portal to collect unverified reports and that we shouldn't use raw VAERS reports to draw any conclusions. Yet, people in the media who know and understand this continue to use it as a cornerstone of their anti vaccine argument. Why are they doing that? And why doesn't their audience recognize that this is clearly a misuse of information? I don't doubt VAERS. I accept it for what it is by its own definition. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 17, 2021 11:55:11 GMT -6
Counter-opinion - there is no unified narrative. There's a swirling chaos of research and information flying all over the place that millions of doctors, researchers, policymakers, and patients are all interacting with on multiple levels. Some people participating in this are altruistic. Some are acting out of self-interest, which frequently aligns with the public good and is a good thing (e.g., profit motive, the basis of capitalism). I have no doubt that some are out and out bad actors operating in ways that are self-serving but are actively harmful to either other nations or portions of the population - charlatans, foreign operatives running psyops, and good old fashioned trolls.
This is disorienting and incredibly difficult for all of us. It's hard to make good decisions, and it's hard to help people make good decisions. So this reality is filtered through a framework of summary statements by policymakers and assumptions by people at all levels. One problem is that in the US most people have a large bias to trust institutions and medicine. It is precisely at this basis of trust where the crisis happens. When these institutions say "I don't know" or reverse course, confidence is lost. This is much more paralyzing and triggers a much larger reaction than if we never trusted them in the first place. Look at the conversation today. People believe that vaccines work so well that when they hear this new vaccine isn't perfect, then it can't possibly even be a vaccine any more. It never occurs to most of us that 1) doctors don't really know what's going on with immunology a great deal of the time 2) we don't have a deep understanding of how a lot of medicines and vaccines work or why 3) a lot of our vaccines are far from perfect.
In the past these kind of discussions would have been hashed out between researchers who know how the sausage is made and have experience reading, digesting, and critiquing scientific papers. Most of the population does not. Hence you find people rushing all over the place following poorly conducted research, or research that's in the formative steps of knowledge (observational / cohort studies), or research that by itself has little direct practical application (like in vitro or in silico studies). This is exacerbated further by the speed of research and publication - pre-prints and sent out unvetted, there's tons of retractions, and all of this is amplified by traditional and social media.
The narrative only exists after the fact. It's a kind of post hoc informational apophenia. Which is why, of course, these theories really take hold when someone connects the dots for you. This works even better if the person is couched in some kind of storyline that appeals to us - the lone doctor struggling to save lives that can't get anyone to listen, the unheeded warning, the good-vs-evil struggle against sinister manipulative forces (big pharma, government, whatever). I'm not belittling them, these are compelling. These are the narratives, truly. Without this external framework imposed on the picture, there is no meaningful story to be told. It's just a bunch of muddling as we slog our way through new and difficult scientific and medical turf. But that's boring, doesn't get clicks, doesn't inspire an emotional response, and doesn't drive social media engagement. So that story doesn't get told.
The reason people get labeled as anti-vaxxers for opposing this vaccine is because by and large the arguments being used to oppose this vaccine are the exact same form and tropes as are used to attack other vaccines. They are leveled in the same way, come from the same baseline assumptions and understandings, appeal to the same lines of reasoning, and ultimately are answered in the same way. When you use anti-vaxxer tropes to attack a vaccine, you sound like an anti-vaxxer.
Right, this is where we disagree. I'm not doubting VAERS. Not even disputing it, not one bit. It is just data. My prof advisor when I was doing research hammered it into my head, and I did the same when I trained young engineers - data is neither bad or good, right or wrong. It just is. It's information. You can do good or bad analysis upon it, you can bring bad or good assumptions into it, and your conclusions can absolutely can be bad or good, right or wrong. Even if they adequately explain or match the data, they can be wrong, completely wrong! I think VAERS is data, and a lot of people are making some unsupportable assumptions leading to unreliable analysis and unreliable conclusions when they're looking at it. Even if those conclusions adequately explain the data. The problem is there's an implicit lack of falsifiability in some of these claims. In the absence of evidence, people fill in the gaps, but these pet assumptions are unassailable and unprovable. You reach a rational impasse.
You haven't yet accepted that the reason many of these outspoken minority point critics are being rejected personally is because they are being put forward in their person, as voices of authority. Dr Malone's only purpose in this discussion so far has been to speak as the inventor of mRNA. He is not speaking from a position of publishing research relating to these vaccines, or acting in an advisory capacity reviewing data for the CDC or FDA. He's just an authority to appeal to. There is no way to address him as such without countering his authority. Can you counter his argument by data? No, because he brings none, appeals to none, bases it in none. Likewise vanden Bossche. No data, no research, just an unsupported theory and an undisclosed bias and conflict of interest in the form of his own vaccine concept. No one should be trusted, there is a reason expert opinion is the very bottom of the quality of evidence pyramid, there's a reason appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, there's a reason the phrase "In God we trust, all others must bring data" is an adage. I'm perfectly happy to not appeal to Tedros or Fauci, and in fact I believe I have not. Let's stick to data, falsifiable claims, and avoid appeals to authority and axiomatic thinking.
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 17, 2021 11:55:31 GMT -6
I'm not sure how to define media anymore. Most widely heard podcasts? Most viewed 'news' networks? Social media posts with the most engagements? Taking this theory at face value, who are the players? Are they coordinating? What are their motivations? How would one explain the holes in the theory? Also, importantly, how else would the world overcome a global pandemic effectively and efficiently? From my admittedly biased perspective, I look at the whole anti-vaccine/pro ivermectin/anti masks push through this lens and it explains a lot. I get what you're saying but the theory only works for one side in this particular debate. No one got uninvited to a family function for being vaccinated, you know what I mean? 🤣 Also, I get the joke here but I'd point out that people have been screamed at and threatened for simply wearing a mask in public. That's absolute lunacy and it's encouraged by people who know better. |
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Post by seawell on Aug 17, 2021 12:10:36 GMT -6
I get what you're saying but the theory only works for one side in this particular debate. No one got uninvited to a family function for being vaccinated, you know what I mean? 🤣 Also, I get the joke here but I'd point out that people have been screamed at and threatened for simply wearing a mask in public. That's absolute lunacy and it's encouraged by people who know better. Huh? Screamed at for wearing or for not wearing a mask? I'd have to say I've only seen the complete opposite. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 17, 2021 12:22:17 GMT -6
I had measles as a child. I didn't have to get a measles vaccine, I had chicken pox as a child. I didn't have to get a chicken pox vaccine. I had Covid-19, but now I have to get a CV19 vaccine? Actual vaccines don't work that wayI had a small pox vaccine as a child. I can't catch Small Pox I had a mumps vaccine as a child. I can't catch the Mumps I've had every other tested and approved vaccine. I can't catch the diseases they were developed for. That's how it works. But if I get even 3 does of this unproven 'vaccine' I can still catch CV19 AGAIN and pass it on to others? Actual vaccines don't work that way. Prove that wrong. Don't mean to be disrespectful, but you continue to make statements which are easily disproven. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine#:~:text=After%20two%20doses%2C%2097%25%20of,those%20who%20are%20incompletely%20immunized. Well then... Seems to agree with what I said. Not so easily disproven, mean or not. Next: Also seems to agree with what I said. No so easily disproven yet, mean or not. It should also be noted that some of us are as old as dirt (over 51) and did not get the MMR or MMRV multi-vaccines which are problematic anyhow, but caught some diseases and were vaccinated with others as I stated. All of which worked. As for the somewhat problematic MMR and MMRV vaccine, the CDC has a plethora of studies on it, and various issues are discussed therein. Let me know if you need a list, but this starts the search . . . duckduckgo.com/?q=issues+with+the+MMR+vaccine&ia=web |
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Post by seawell on Aug 17, 2021 12:25:08 GMT -6
I appreciate the well thought out responses guys, I really do and I appreciate all the effort and input that has been put into this thread. We don't see things the same way and I guess that is part of what makes the world go 'round. I have just gotten to the point where I think we are dealing with some sort of mass formation/hysteria. I don't know how else to explain things like what's happening in New Zealand today. Nationwide lock down over 1 CASE. Not just that but the first case in 6 months!
It's no longer about not overwhelming the hospitals, etc... now I can see the case for ZERO COVID being made and since that relies on PCR testing I see absolutely no way out at this point(even with 100% vaccination). I know covid is real, it has taken a lot from a lot of people(myself included) but I think we've collectively lost our damn minds. I mean just listen to this .. "Don't talk to you neighbors." 😳
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 17, 2021 12:25:29 GMT -6
Yeah. That, and people who threaten employees for asking them to put on a mask in their place of business, etc. I make no excuses for people being violent towards maskless folks, fyi, but it's not being explicitly encouraged by media and political leaders.
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 17, 2021 12:30:27 GMT -6
I’d say there is an overwhelming narrative, two actually (and also a counter narrative). The first narrative is fear. Not a healthy fear, a full embrace and surrender to fear. I watched it happen in real time when all our infectious disease protocols got turned upside down at the start of the pandemic because this virus was “different”. I kept asking, how? How is it different? We fundamentally know how to stop or reduce the transmission of droplet spread pathogens. We know that hand washing is the single biggest thing we can do to reduce transmission of diseases such as these. We know masks work in certain contexts and don’t work in other contexts. Etc etc.
The second narrative is “Do what the CDC/WHO say”. This narrative ignores quite a bit of reality.
Matt has talked a lot about arguments of authority. I agree with his basic premise. However, I feel all the arguments, from both sides are an appeal to authority. No one has a get out of jail free card here. Everyone is “appealing” to the science, or claiming to. IME everyone has got some things wrong and some things right. They/we have all gone too far or not far enough. In the end it’s whose authority do you put your trust into?
The counter narrative is the podcasters, the “rogue” Drs, the anti-vax crowd etc etc. it’s a pretty mixed bag filled with both compelling arguments and utter BS. Much like the other side.
My biggest stance, my strongest conviction, the hill I’ll die on is that I want the ability to hear all the arguments. I want to hear all the narratives. The good and bad. Period. I’ll make my own decisions. I’ll live with the consequences too. And I’ll fight tooth and nail for the right to be wrong. Because without the freedom to be wrong we don’t have the mechanisms necessary to think through problems. Life isn’t a math problem. It’s a treacherous path through a narrow mountain road with danger on all sides. The only way to get through it is to take some wrong turns, figure out where it went wrong, back track and take the other fork in the road. Without that freedom we’re just crucifying each other for being human.
Edit: The anti COVID vax crowd does sound a lot like the anti-vax crowd in general. But so does the pro vax crowd. On one side you have people saying that all vaccines are killing us, causing autism etc. The other side is completely ignoring actual vaccine injury, the effects of systemic inflammation, possible toxins in the vaccines (like mercury), possible dangers in the scheduling of vaccines (cohosting them all in short period of time vs spreading them out over adolescence) etc. Both sides seem to be missing the mark, imho.
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 17, 2021 12:32:39 GMT -6
Well then... Seems to agree with what I said. Not so easily disproven, mean or not. Next: Also seems to agree with what I said. No so easily disproven yet, mean or not. It should also be noted that some of us are as old as dirt (over 51) and did not get the MMR or MMRV multi-vaccines which are problematic anyhow, but caught some diseases and were vaccinated with others as I stated. All of which worked. As for the somewhat problematic MMR and MMRV vaccine, the CDC has a plethora of studies on it, and various issues are discussed therein. Let me know if you need a list, but this starts the search . . . duckduckgo.com/?q=issues+with+the+MMR+vaccine&ia=web I'm having a hard time understanding your thinking. Your earlier statements are factually incorrect. None of this changes that. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 17, 2021 12:37:29 GMT -6
I don’t agree 100% with everything In this video but I share the general perspective that they shared. Especially the lack of acknowledgment of the tremendous psychological damage lock downs have caused.
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 17, 2021 12:49:40 GMT -6
I want to add one thing. One point I absolutely share is the danger of overwhelming hospitals. That was a very real thing at the beginning and its a very real thing now, in this current wave. I just spent some of the most exhausting last three days in the hospital.
Talking to surgeons and asking, “how many people are scheduled for open heart surgery today? Five? Shit…we only have three ventilators left…” the solution? I know! I’ll steal two more vents from NICU, set them up for adults and prey we extubate the open heart patients before another premature baby is born that needs to be intubated! It makes me want to fucking cry. To have the responsibility of keeping people alive, to know that if you make a mistake at your job, or miscalculate something some one may die. And to not have the resources needed to do that job. I don’t know what the fuck to do. Every critical care nurse and respiratory therapist I know would love to quit. The job is hard enough under the best of circumstances.
Thanks for listening to me rant.
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Post by seawell on Aug 17, 2021 12:56:43 GMT -6
I want to add one thing. One point I absolutely share is the danger of overwhelming hospitals. That was a very real thing at the beginning and its a very real thing now, in this current wave. I just spent some of the most exhausting last three days in the hospital. Talking to surgeons and asking, “how many people are scheduled for open heart surgery today? Five? Shit…we only have three ventilators left…” the solution? I know! I’ll steal two more vents from NICU, set them up for adults and prey we extubate the open heart patients before another premature baby is born that needs to be intubated! It makes me want to fucking cry. To have the responsibility of keeping people alive, to know that if you make a mistake at your job, or miscalculate something some one may die. And to not have the resources needed to do that job. I don’t know what the fuck to do. Every critical care nurse and respiratory therapist I know would love to quit. The job is hard enough under the best of circumstances. Thanks for listening to me rant. It's long overdue but I'd like to say a huge THANK YOU for sticking with it throughout all of this. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like and I wish you the very best. 🙏🏼 |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 17, 2021 13:16:54 GMT -6
Pretty interesting article on that front... www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/And I agree about lockdowns. In the end, not worth it (not because they can't be but because we aren't good at them as humans). Check this out - it's a good review. astralcodexten.substack.com/p/lockdown-effectiveness-much-moreIt just seems to me that the only way this becomes a non-issue is if people are vaccinated. I don't care about cases. I don't really care about mild illness. I care about hospital overloads and people dying or having some kind of severe illness. The vaccines we have address that without a doubt. You can reduce hospital burden by an order of magnitude with vaccination. Once you do that, everything else...masks, shutdowns, whatever...becomes irrelevant from a public policy point of view. Also, Tbone81 I feel for you man. My college roommate has shared a little with me how hard its been, especially this recent wave. Losing patients under the age of 55 is a lot more emotionally taxing than losing 75 year olds. I don't envy you and I appreciate what y'all do. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 17, 2021 13:16:57 GMT -6
I want to add one thing. One point I absolutely share is the danger of overwhelming hospitals. That was a very real thing at the beginning and its a very real thing now, in this current wave. I just spent some of the most exhausting last three days in the hospital. Talking to surgeons and asking, “how many people are scheduled for open heart surgery today? Five? Shit…we only have three ventilators left…” the solution? I know! I’ll steal two more vents from NICU, set them up for adults and prey we extubate the open heart patients before another premature baby is born that needs to be intubated! It makes me want to fucking cry. To have the responsibility of keeping people alive, to know that if you make a mistake at your job, or miscalculate something some one may die. And to not have the resources needed to do that job. I don’t know what the fuck to do. Every critical care nurse and respiratory therapist I know would love to quit. The job is hard enough under the best of circumstances. Thanks for listening to me rant. It's long overdue but I'd like to say a huge THANK YOU for sticking with it throughout all of this. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like and I wish you all the very best. 🙏🏼 Ditto. |
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Post by Quint on Aug 17, 2021 13:18:12 GMT -6
I want to add one thing. One point I absolutely share is the danger of overwhelming hospitals. That was a very real thing at the beginning and its a very real thing now, in this current wave. I just spent some of the most exhausting last three days in the hospital. Talking to surgeons and asking, “how many people are scheduled for open heart surgery today? Five? Shit…we only have three ventilators left…” the solution? I know! I’ll steal two more vents from NICU, set them up for adults and prey we extubate the open heart patients before another premature baby is born that needs to be intubated! It makes me want to fucking cry. To have the responsibility of keeping people alive, to know that if you make a mistake at your job, or miscalculate something some one may die. And to not have the resources needed to do that job. I don’t know what the fuck to do. Every critical care nurse and respiratory therapist I know would love to quit. The job is hard enough under the best of circumstances. Thanks for listening to me rant. Man, that's hard to hear. So unfortunate. You guys have had it rough and everyone, regardless of where their opinions fall on the vaccine, should be thankful for the work that the medical community has done to try to save Covid patients. Keep up the good work and hopefully we'll get out of this eventually. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 17, 2021 17:48:26 GMT -6
SNIP I'm having a hard time understanding your thinking. Your earlier statements are factually incorrect. None of this changes that. I'm gone past the point of caring what you think or understand. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 17, 2021 18:38:00 GMT -6
Well that’s not very nice.
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 17, 2021 19:02:32 GMT -6
I’d say there is an overwhelming narrative, two actually (and also a counter narrative). The first narrative is fear. Not a healthy fear, a full embrace and surrender to fear. I watched it happen in real time when all our infectious disease protocols got turned upside down at the start of the pandemic because this virus was “different”. I kept asking, how? How is it different? We fundamentally know how to stop or reduce the transmission of droplet spread pathogens. We know that hand washing is the single biggest thing we can do to reduce transmission of diseases such as these. We know masks work in certain contexts and don’t work in other contexts. Etc etc. The second narrative is “Do what the CDC/WHO say”. This narrative ignores quite a bit of reality. Matt has talked a lot about arguments of authority. I agree with his basic premise. However, I feel all the arguments, from both sides are an appeal to authority. No one has a get out of jail free card here. Everyone is “appealing” to the science, or claiming to. IME everyone has got some things wrong and some things right. They/we have all gone too far or not far enough. In the end it’s whose authority do you put your trust into? The counter narrative is the podcasters, the “rogue” Drs, the anti-vax crowd etc etc. it’s a pretty mixed bag filled with both compelling arguments and utter BS. Much like the other side. My biggest stance, my strongest conviction, the hill I’ll die on is that I want the ability to hear all the arguments. I want to hear all the narratives. The good and bad. Period. I’ll make my own decisions. I’ll live with the consequences too. And I’ll fight tooth and nail for the right to be wrong. Because without the freedom to be wrong we don’t have the mechanisms necessary to think through problems. Life isn’t a math problem. It’s a treacherous path through a narrow mountain road with danger on all sides. The only way to get through it is to take some wrong turns, figure out where it went wrong, back track and take the other fork in the road. Without that freedom we’re just crucifying each other for being human. Edit: The anti COVID vax crowd does sound a lot like the anti-vax crowd in general. But so does the pro vax crowd. On one side you have people saying that all vaccines are killing us, causing autism etc. The other side is completely ignoring actual vaccine injury, the effects of systemic inflammation, possible toxins in the vaccines (like mercury), possible dangers in the scheduling of vaccines (cohosting them all in short period of time vs spreading them out over adolescence) etc. Both sides seem to be missing the mark, imho. I've been thinking about this post and I largely agree. Public policy is unbelievably complex, especially under these circumstances. In this case, policy had to be made quickly without much information and very little coordination. Even the very best experts are going to get things wrong, especially in retrospect. Even if experts and authorities got it 100% right, every possible policy would have a negative impact on someone. There's just no escaping that. I can't imagine a scenario where we go through something like this without a ton of confusion and frustration. Who do we trust? I can't answer that for anyone else, but I choose to trust the people who seem to be operating in good faith and whose incentives are aligned with the public good. That eliminates much of the media, quite a few politicians, and a (thankfully) small number of medical professionals. Hopefully this will lead to serious conversations about which systems we need in place, because we will certainly face something like this again. |
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Post by dmo on Aug 18, 2021 17:38:00 GMT -6
I'm once again a little late in responding to a few points as my "downtime" for activities like visiting the forum have been constrained by either long shifts or spending my last 2 days off in court as an expert witness (my least favorite thing ever) - so will hopefully be brief. I take extra time thinking about and double checking my responses to try to avoid anything that might be argumentative or come across as snide or ridiculing of another perspective/opinion - I respect the people here even if I don't always agree with them and support discussion of opposing views. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here - just trying to provide information and occasionally provide clarification if there appears to be a misunderstanding of a term/process from the medical literature.
I want to pass along current recommendations based on current "best evidence" and that is, to my knowledge, the current practice patterns in the US among the majority of EM physicians (since that's the group I have best visibility on).
- Outpatient med recommendations (non prescription) - zinc, Vit D, antitussives (cough medicines), ASA (aspirin). Some folks add Vit C (everyone increases Vit C for colds, right?). Limited evidence of improvement but enough evidence that worse outcomes observed when levels zinc/Vit D low that making sure you aren't is reasonable. ASA to offset hypercoaguability/risk clots.
- Outpatient prescription:
1. Montelukast (Singulair - asthma medicine). One retrospective inpatient trial showed significantly fewer events of clinical deterioration, no prospective studies yet (that I've seen). Has been shown to reduce cytokine release and lung inflammation in pre-clinical trials in influenza and ARDS. so makes sense.
2. Monoclonal antibody (Regeneron - think DrBill had asked about this). Just revised inclusion criteria so most folks will likely qualify. Recommended if not vaccinated or not fully vaccinated OR if co morbidities placing you at higher risk. Appears to decrease symptom duration and severity (this does not necessarily equal disease severity - see caveat below). Currently recommended for those in inclusion criteria.
3. Steroids (only if hypoxic)
Things to watch for - fluvoxamine (anti depressant). Soon to be published Canadian/Brazil large study looked at 8 different medications - this was only one that showed reduction in hospitalization (30%), is also being looked at with some early positive findings in "long haul" Covid patients. FYI - they also looked at hydroxychloraquine and Ivermectin and neither showed benefit in this large study.
Caveat about Regeneron/monoclonal antibodies: I have some reservations about these for 2 reasons. The first monoclonal (BAM/bamlaminavimab) used showed some symptom reduction but really didn't seem to decrease morbidity/mortality. Second reason - early pharmaceutical trials used decreased viral load and symptom duration as clinical markers/endpoints. Reminds me a lot of Tamiflu for influenza where there is evidence in decrease symptom duration but no studies that I know that actually demonstrate decreased morbidity/mortality. My bottom line - too soon to tell if it can reduce risk hospitalization/severe illness.
Stay safe out there
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 18, 2021 19:38:13 GMT -6
Edit: The anti COVID vax crowd does sound a lot like the anti-vax crowd in general. But so does the pro vax crowd. On one side you have people saying that all vaccines are killing us, causing autism etc. The other side is completely ignoring actual vaccine injury, the effects of systemic inflammation, possible toxins in the vaccines (like mercury), possible dangers in the scheduling of vaccines (cohosting them all in short period of time vs spreading them out over adolescence) etc. Both sides seem to be missing the mark, imho. Thats exactly my opinion. In a world that turns more and more narcicistic, it does not surprisses me that a lot of people have fear. Fear is behind the narcicistic mask. Sometimes we all use those tactics to express our fear... What we have now is new. A crazy guy or girl from nowhere claims to know the truth and people follow him. Discussions turn into paranoid arguments For example:. Were did you read X ….? In the internet… Who claimed it which organization…? I have forgotten…! You know somwhere in the internet is not the Lancet.... I dont care I am right and you are wrong..... It takes two to dance in a discussion. The way they tell thier arguments is passiv agressive. In science you cant claim a theory without the proof. Same is true for the „there is no climate change“ crowd. The force behind this is fear, everbody can see now there is a massive change. I can understand the fear because humans dont like to loose controll. Why dont we do more against it. Climate change is slow and there are still a lot of people with child like wishful thinking. May there is a human extinction in the end, the reason … human psychology… |
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 20, 2021 21:35:21 GMT -6
Doh.
“The Mississippi Department of Health sent a letter out to to the MS Health Alert Network on Friday warning health professionals of the spike in poisonings from individuals digesting ivermectin.
“At least 70% of the recent calls have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers,” the letter stated.”
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Post by seawell on Aug 20, 2021 21:48:22 GMT -6
Doh. “The Mississippi Department of Health sent a letter out to to the MS Health Alert Network on Friday warning health professionals of the spike in poisonings from individuals digesting ivermectin. “At least 70% of the recent calls have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers,” the letter stated.” Did it kill anyone? *edit...never mind I found the article: theparadise.ng/mississippi-officials-warn-against-using-ivermectin-for-covid-19-amid-spike-in-poisonings/"Only one person was told to seek further help due to the amount of the ivermectin ingested and 85 percent of callers had mild symptoms." "There have been no hospitalizations reported to the department yet from someone ingesting ivermectin to cure the coronavirus." So, not very smart to take a dose intended for a horse LOL but glad to hear even at those levels it wasn't a fatal mistake. It's a real shame people are in this position at all. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 21, 2021 9:29:28 GMT -6
Friend and husband were very sick with C19. Husband got well fairly quickly but our friend became deathly ill. Many trips to Dr's and local hospital and the Mayo Clinic and she was only getting worse. Her neighbor finally brought her some Ivermectin paste from her horses. Guess what? Amazingly - she had a huge positive upswing in less than 24 hours. She's moving past the C19 now. Go figure. Not that I would recommend it, but the Dr's didn't do anything that helped her.
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