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Post by seawell on Aug 16, 2021 11:50:24 GMT -6
Serious question…and I’m not just trying to be a pita…but…how does one track long term risk:benefit if all of the unvaccinated in the control group have since been vaccinated?
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 16, 2021 12:43:13 GMT -6
Do they track risks via control group? I guess I assumed they track risks via monitoring the vaccinated for side effects and looking for patterns.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 16, 2021 12:52:01 GMT -6
More than you wanted to read about it www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3148611/You might say that for a 'normal' drug timeline, not an EUA in a pandemic, we're doing phase 4 now. EUA takes the place of approval in the usual. Even the phase 3 trials were ten times larger than normal.
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Post by seawell on Aug 16, 2021 13:02:25 GMT -6
Do they track risks via control group? I guess I assumed they track risks via monitoring the vaccinated for side effects and looking for patterns. Wouldn't you need to keep both in tact to have accurate long term data?
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Post by seawell on Aug 16, 2021 13:07:30 GMT -6
More than you wanted to read about it www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3148611/You might say that for a 'normal' drug timeline, not an EUA in a pandemic, we're doing phase 4 now. EUA takes the place of approval in the usual. Even the phase 3 trials were ten times larger than normal. Are you aware of a study where the placebo group didn't end up getting vaccinated? I can't find any.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 16, 2021 13:30:40 GMT -6
There's a lot of ways to have control other than placebo, as that article points out.
The placebo group for the phase 3 vaccines were given the option to get vaccinated after the six month window. If the treatment (any treatment) is safe and effective at some point it becomes unethical to not give people the option.
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Post by seawell on Aug 16, 2021 13:38:03 GMT -6
Yeah, I’ve heard the argument that it’s unethical. I think they could have found volunteers to stay unvaccinated, I certainly would have signed up. So I guess the answer is there are no long term studies left where the placebo group didn’t end up getting vaccinated. That’s a bummer.
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 16, 2021 13:51:57 GMT -6
Do they track risks via control group? I guess I assumed they track risks via monitoring the vaccinated for side effects and looking for patterns. Wouldn't you need to keep both in tact to have accurate long term data? Maybe, I'm just not sure how it works. Are you thinking that participants in a study would agree to remain unvaccinated for many months or years after the study ends?
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Post by seawell on Aug 16, 2021 13:53:31 GMT -6
Wouldn't you need to keep both in tact to have accurate long term data? Maybe, I'm just not sure how it works. Are you thinking that participants in a study would agree to remain unvaccinated for many months or years after the study ends? Yes, if you were interested in keeping the study in tact. I would volunteer. The plan was that they would remain unvaccinated for 2 years but that seems to be lost forever now.
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 16, 2021 14:09:40 GMT -6
I guess I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you saying participants bailed on their agreements? Mind linking me to something explaining what you're referencing?
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Post by seawell on Aug 16, 2021 14:15:23 GMT -6
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 16, 2021 14:25:40 GMT -6
Thanks! Looks like participants just opted out of a followup study. Understandable. The challenge is to find people who are both okay with getting it and okay with going without...probably a tough ask.
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Post by seawell on Aug 16, 2021 14:47:05 GMT -6
Thanks! Looks like participants just opted out of a followup study. Understandable. The challenge is to find people who are both okay with getting it and okay with going without...probably a tough ask. Yeah it sounds like only 2 people decided to remain unvaccinated and that article is from February so not sure where they stand now. When Matt posted about phase 4 it got me curious so I went looking for the long term studies. I get why people would choose to get vaccinated once they found out they got the placebo but it is a scientific loss. No easy answer for it though, that's for sure.
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Post by drbill on Aug 16, 2021 15:38:21 GMT -6
Is Regeneron - Monoclonal Antibody Treatment - a crackpot theory as well?
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Post by ericn on Aug 16, 2021 16:48:39 GMT -6
Is Regeneron - Monoclonal Antibody Treatment - a crackpot theory as well? No but it still only has an EUA, for mild cases, non effective and can be dangerous to those on O2. So far in most pretty good outcomes, it’s just nobody really understands the window when treatment is effective. As I’m sure Tbone and DMO could explain those who are getting hit are to damn busy trying to treat to record data for studies right now.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 16, 2021 17:31:21 GMT -6
Yeah, I’ve heard the argument that it’s unethical. I think they could have found volunteers to stay unvaccinated, I certainly would have signed up. So I guess the answer is there are no long term studies left where the placebo group didn’t end up getting vaccinated. That’s a bummer. It’s not as much about ethics as the idea of a study is “Blind” if you tell the control group they got saline not the real vaccines before the end of the study and that may color their mental reaction.
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Post by Ward on Aug 16, 2021 20:31:31 GMT -6
Your post would be more accurate (since you brought it up) with proper scientific citations,
The health minister in Iceland himself declared the country was 100% vaccinated and could not explain how anyone could catch or pass on Covid 19.
And there's this:
FYI, I would line the birdcage with the NY Times, but the Parrot isn't confident in it's ability to do anything.
Finally, you say "some vaccines work this way, some don't"
Q. What's the good of a vaccine if it doesn't work?
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 16, 2021 20:54:36 GMT -6
Your quoted text, right there, says "There are still some 30,000 unvaccinated people among older groups and they are more at risk." Iceland only has 350,000 people, so that's nearly 10% just in whatever age constitutes "older groups."
Some vaccines work by injecting an attenuated virus. Other vaccines don't work this way... not because they don't work, but because they work in a different way.
People are playing fast and loose with the word "work" with these vaccines. It's weird.
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Post by Ward on Aug 17, 2021 6:25:57 GMT -6
Your quoted text, right there, says "There are still some 30,000 unvaccinated people among older groups and they are more at risk." Iceland only has 350,000 people, so that's nearly 10% just in whatever age constitutes "older groups." Some vaccines work by injecting an attenuated virus. Other vaccines don't work this way... not because they don't work, but because they work in a different way. People are playing fast and loose with the word "work" with these vaccines. It's weird. I had measles as a child. I didn't have to get a measles vaccine, I had chicken pox as a child. I didn't have to get a chicken pox vaccine. I had Covid-19, but now I have to get a CV19 vaccine? Actual vaccines don't work that wayI had a small pox vaccine as a child. I can't catch Small Pox I had a mumps vaccine as a child. I can't catch the Mumps I've had every other tested and approved vaccine. I can't catch the diseases they were developed for. That's how it works. But if I get even 3 does of this unproven 'vaccine' I can still catch CV19 AGAIN and pass it on to others? Actual vaccines don't work that way. Prove that wrong.
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 17, 2021 7:08:06 GMT -6
Your quoted text, right there, says "There are still some 30,000 unvaccinated people among older groups and they are more at risk." Iceland only has 350,000 people, so that's nearly 10% just in whatever age constitutes "older groups." Some vaccines work by injecting an attenuated virus. Other vaccines don't work this way... not because they don't work, but because they work in a different way. People are playing fast and loose with the word "work" with these vaccines. It's weird. I had measles as a child. I didn't have to get a measles vaccine, I had chicken pox as a child. I didn't have to get a chicken pox vaccine. I had Covid-19, but now I have to get a CV19 vaccine? Actual vaccines don't work that wayI had a small pox vaccine as a child. I can't catch Small Pox I had a mumps vaccine as a child. I can't catch the Mumps I've had every other tested and approved vaccine. I can't catch the diseases they were developed for. That's how it works. But if I get even 3 does of this unproven 'vaccine' I can still catch CV19 AGAIN and pass it on to others? Actual vaccines don't work that way. Prove that wrong. Don't mean to be disrespectful, but you continue to make statements which are easily disproven. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine#:~:text=After%20two%20doses%2C%2097%25%20of,those%20who%20are%20incompletely%20immunized.
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 17, 2021 7:42:39 GMT -6
I had measles as a child. I didn't have to get a measles vaccine, I had chicken pox as a child. I didn't have to get a chicken pox vaccine. I had Covid-19, but now I have to get a CV19 vaccine? Actual vaccines don't work that wayI had a small pox vaccine as a child. I can't catch Small Pox I had a mumps vaccine as a child. I can't catch the Mumps I've had every other tested and approved vaccine. I can't catch the diseases they were developed for. That's how it works. But if I get even 3 does of this unproven 'vaccine' I can still catch CV19 AGAIN and pass it on to others? Actual vaccines don't work that way. Prove that wrong. Don't mean to be disrespectful, but you continue to make statements which are easily disproven. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine#:~:text=After%20two%20doses%2C%2097%25%20of,those%20who%20are%20incompletely%20immunized. This part caught my eye- “Of the 66 cases of measles reported in the U.S. in 2005, slightly over half were attributable to one unvaccinated individual who acquired measles during a visit to Romania.[28] This individual returned to a community with many unvaccinated children. The resulting outbreak infected 34 people, mostly children and virtually all unvaccinated; 9% were hospitalized, and the cost of containing the outbreak was estimated at $167,685. A major epidemic was averted due to high rates of vaccination in the surrounding communities.[27]” Sigh.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 17, 2021 8:09:44 GMT -6
I had measles as a child. I didn't have to get a measles vaccine, I had chicken pox as a child. I didn't have to get a chicken pox vaccine. I had Covid-19, but now I have to get a CV19 vaccine? Actual vaccines don't work that wayI had a small pox vaccine as a child. I can't catch Small Pox I had a mumps vaccine as a child. I can't catch the Mumps I've had every other tested and approved vaccine. I can't catch the diseases they were developed for. That's how it works. But if I get even 3 does of this unproven 'vaccine' I can still catch CV19 AGAIN and pass it on to others? Actual vaccines don't work that way. Prove that wrong. ok, I'm just curious. What is the objective of this conversation? It seems like you keep saying things of questionable accuracy, I provide information, and then you move to something else. Are we having a discussion? Is this a challenge or a game? I think you're saying that the current mRNA vaccines aren't "real" vaccines. You previously implied this because they don't use an attenuated virus. That's not correct, and I gave you examples of other vaccines we've used for 40 years now which work by other methods than using an attenuated virus. Now it seems that you're suggesting that any vaccine that doesn't give total immunity, or doesn't give lifetime immunity, is not an "actual" vaccine. By this definition none of the vaccines we have today are "actual" vaccines. No vaccine, not a single one, confers 100% immunity. The smallpox vaccine had around 95% efficacy at preventing disease. However, smallpox as a disease gives lifetime immunity, what's called sterilizing immunity, as did the vaccine. But it "took" for 95% of people. So this is 100% immunity, for 95% of people. The mumps vaccine is part of the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine. You took probably 2 rounds of this as a child, and depending on how old you are or where you grew up you might have had to get another two rounds before university, and as an adult depending on what you do for a living you may need another two rounds (if you're a teacher or work in healthcare). The mumps vaccine is around 78% effective after one dose and 88% effective after two, and it wanes over time. In real-world outbreaks it shows 50-80% efficacy with one dose and 66-80% efficacy with two doses. The efficacy of it wanes over time. Two things. "catching a disease" is not the same as "being infected by a virus". Infection without symptoms is not disease, by definition. You can be infected an not have disease. Most of our vaccines do not prevent this, they do not give sterilizing immunity. And, every single vaccine we have is imperfect, so there is a small risk that yes, you might catch any disease you were vaccinated for. So no sir, that is not "how it works." The third point is that as I showed above not all viruses work the same way. Not all of them infect you by the same routes, they aren't fought by your immune system the same way. We shouldn't be surprised that vaccination versus these different types of viruses also works differently. Natural immunity against the other human coronaviruses is not well understood. You are re-infected by the four human coronaviruses multiple times in your life, they just cause a cold. We don't know for sure whether this is because your immunity wanes, or because the viruses mutate enough to reinfect, or some combination of both. We shouldn't be surprised if this human coronavirus works the same way. Vaccines prime your immune system to respond to the pathogen. Most vaccines give similar protection to the pathogen they're presenting. Some vaccines give "super-human" protection, they actually cause your immune system to respond better to the pathogen than the pathogen itself does. If your immune system doesn't give you lifetime immunity to coronaviruses, and maybe only 18-24 month immunity, and maybe that's worse against a mutational variant of that same coronavirus...baseline expectation is for the vaccine to cause your immune system to perform similarly...like most other vaccines do. One other thing to add. A lot of the vaccines we currently use have more or less protection depending on what age you vaccinate and how long it is between the first shot and the booster. Many of our current vaccines used delayed boosters for this reason... like Hepatitis B and A, the DTaP vaccine, Polio, varicella, HPV, and meningitis. "Showing" the antigen to the immune system again after a short period where it "forgets" seems to give longer term protection.
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Post by seawell on Aug 17, 2021 9:04:05 GMT -6
Ward I think the work Mattias Desmet is doing in this space will interest you, if you haven't come across him yet:
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 17, 2021 9:35:51 GMT -6
Ward I think the work Mattias Desmet is doing in this space will interest you, if you haven't come across him yet: Just starting to check this out and it's really interesting. A lot of what he says could be applied to people on both sides of this conversation.
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Post by seawell on Aug 17, 2021 9:40:17 GMT -6
Ward I think the work Mattias Desmet is doing in this space will interest you, if you haven't come across him yet: Just starting to check this out and it's really interesting. A lot of what he says could be applied to people on both sides of this conversation. I don't think so because the media/main stream narrative has to be in play here and that is only going one particular way. It is interesting though and not meant to offend anyone or anything like that. It's just something I've been tracking for a while now. Edited to add...I do agree there is a certain amount of something crazy going on for both sides, it's just that for his particular theory I think it has to be supported as mainstream or accepted which doesn't apply to the voices that are challenging the mainstream covid narrative. Not to say there aren't shenanigans all around though, I agree with you there 👍🏼
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