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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 4, 2021 14:31:10 GMT -6
It's not censorship to eliminate lies and deliberate misinformation.
It used to be illegal to print deliberate misinfomation in newspapers. They had staffs of fact checkers and editors to see to it.
Was it illegal for the press to publicly debate the finer points of differing scientific studies? Studies that happen draw opposing conclusions? If that’s misinformation then science is dead. You may or may not be aware that there are studies that show both the efficacy of masks and ones that show they don’t work. The devil is in the details, and it’s very much the realm of science to debate those details. If you feel inclined to reply please do so respectfully. We’ve had a great discussion, so far, among people with opposing views. But, respectfully, I don’t know if I can have the same type of discussion with you. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 4, 2021 14:35:09 GMT -6
It appears that you (A) don't understand vaccines and (B) may not read that well.
Nobody ever said that vaccines block the virus 100%. What they do do is reduce the spread of the virus AND make it so that if you do get it it's much milder and the odds are near 100% that you won't die.
As yes, it IS still a pandemic of the unvaccinated.
(A) Giving zero credit for natural immunity is junk science and politically motivated. (B) Saying someone doesn’t read well is low and unnecessary. Can we not disagree without insulting one another? If you’re ok with accepting everything you’ve been told because..”science”…then fine. We don’t have to agree but what I’m not going to let slide is junk science hiding behind political motives. Painting unvaccinated people with a broad stroke giving no consideration to those that have recovered from covid is irresponsible. For example, the band The Offspring just fired their drummer because he won’t take the vaccine. He’s already had covid AND he took years to recover from a case of guillian barre from another vaccine! Why on earth would he risk that again? I think there are a lot of people that SHOULD get vaccinated. I think there is a smaller group that SHOULD NOT. All I’m asking for is respect and consideration for that group. It does not work for everyone and a 100% vaccine approach to ending a pandemic has plenty of flaws to it. There are serious, well qualified doctors and scientists that have these concerns. Is it a minority view? Sure! But let’s not pretend like I’m pulling this out of thin air. If you’re interested in productive discussion then I’ll gladly engage…if you just want to hurl personal insults then you can kindly take a hike. I don't "accdept what I'm told by any of the mass media or "social" websites. Anything thats's allegedly "science" gets checked out in the real scientific literature. Stuff from known political fronts is rejected out of hand. I also check the credentials of the authors. And I know the differernce between an X-ray tech at Stanford and a real scientist. I don't need to waste my time with paid liars. Same with obviously fake "studies". I can write a "study" to "prove" the moon is made of green cheese. Doesn't make it true.
We can discuss if you'll stop posting propaganda.
BTW, who is this group that should not? Religious nuts? No. They should. Wannabe suicides? No, use a gun and don't endanger everyone else. Or a rope. Or a needle. There are plenty of ways to kill yourself without endangering others.
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 4, 2021 14:43:38 GMT -6
eradication of the virus through vaccines was never the goal. The goal was/is to reduce deaths and hospitalization. The virus was always going to mutate. People are blaming the unvaccinated on the delta variant but there were already like 6 different strains of the virus before any vaccine was even available. This is evolution at its finest. We have to learn to live with COVID, period. We need to stop blaming each other, and we need to stop making decisions based on fear. We need better messaging from the higher ups and we need decisions that balance public health with the economy and with the diseases of despair. We’re so single minded focused on COVID that almost no one is talking about child abuse, suicide, drug addiction, depression, anxiety etc. These are serious things that are ruining people’s lives and killing people. And Let’s not forget that the vast majority of people dying have sever comorbidities, obesity being one of the most prevalent. It’s sad that literally no mainstream voices are telling people to get healthy. If now isn’t the time to take your personal health seriously when is? Yes and no, the problem is 75 percent of those who end up in the hospital are obese, that also tracks with the estimate that 73-78 percent of the US is obese. That’s thing with numbers on this one we need more data. Now at 6ft 2in 180lbs I feel I can say this but most of Americans think everybody else is over weight except them, but around 75 of America is. Of course as a burn doc told me a year ago I pretty much am a walking talking co-morbidity on this thing. Thats a good point Eric, but I have a counter! lol  I can tell you from personal experience, and I can explain the physics if need be, but obese people can be much harder to manage on a mechanical ventilator. It’s a compliance issue mostly. The vent has to work harder to push open the lungs against the increased body mass. That results in more lung injury. And COVID itself causes lung compliance issues. So while you make a good point, I believe that even when you adjust for the population at large being overweight, the obese would be still be shown to be dying at higher rates (all other things bring even). That’s my own anecdotal experience, but the physics and science behind it is pretty sound. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 4, 2021 14:47:43 GMT -6
It's not censorship to eliminate lies and deliberate misinformation.
It used to be illegal to print deliberate misinfomation in newspapers. They had staffs of fact checkers and editors to see to it.
Was it illegal for the press to publicly debate the finer points of differing scientific studies? Studies that happen draw opposing conclusions? If that’s misinformation then science is dead. You may or may not be aware that there are studies that show both the efficacy of masks and ones that show they don’t work. The devil is in the details, and it’s very much the realm of science to debate those details. If you feel inclined to reply please do so respectfully. We’ve had a great discussion, so far, among people with opposing views. But, respectfully, I don’t know if I can have the same type of discussion with you. Like i said, I can whip up a "study" that proves nearly anything. "Studies" on their own are meaningless. You have to research who conducted and who published the "study". It's actually not that hard. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 4, 2021 14:50:51 GMT -6
Was it illegal for the press to publicly debate the finer points of differing scientific studies? Studies that happen draw opposing conclusions? If that’s misinformation then science is dead. You may or may not be aware that there are studies that show both the efficacy of masks and ones that show they don’t work. The devil is in the details, and it’s very much the realm of science to debate those details. If you feel inclined to reply please do so respectfully. We’ve had a great discussion, so far, among people with opposing views. But, respectfully, I don’t know if I can have the same type of discussion with you. Like i said, I can whip up a "study" that proves nearly anything. "Studies" on their own are meaningless. You have to research who conducted and who published the "study". It's actually not that hard. Right, we agree on that. Where we differ is that I think people should be allowed to publicly talk about those studies and discuss those differences. Not be dismissed out of hand because it doesn’t fit what the CDC/WHO is pushing. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 4, 2021 14:52:39 GMT -6
Was it illegal for the press to publicly debate the finer points of differing scientific studies? Studies that happen draw opposing conclusions? If that’s misinformation then science is dead. You may or may not be aware that there are studies that show both the efficacy of masks and ones that show they don’t work. The devil is in the details, and it’s very much the realm of science to debate those details. If you feel inclined to reply please do so respectfully. We’ve had a great discussion, so far, among people with opposing views. But, respectfully, I don’t know if I can have the same type of discussion with you. Like i said, I can whip up a "study" that proves nearly anything. "Studies" on their own are meaningless. You have to research who conducted and who published the "study". It's actually not that hard. BTW, there are studies that show masks work AND don’t work, both published in the Lancet, which is a respectable journal. The devil is in the details. Not being able to talk about those details? That’s something else. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 4, 2021 14:55:50 GMT -6
Thats a good point Eric, but I have a counter! lol I can tell you from personal experience, and I can explain the physics if need be, but obese people can be much harder to manage on a mechanical ventilator. It’s a compliance issue mostly. The vent has to work harder to push open the lungs against the increased body mass. That results in more lung injury. And COVID itself causes lung compliance issues. So while you make a good point, I believe that even when you adjust for the population at large being overweight, the obese would be still be shown to be dying at higher rates (all other things bring even). That’s my own anecdotal experience, but the physics and science behind it is pretty sound. Well, unless the person is EXTREMELY, MORBIDLY obese the bulk of the weight is not pressing on the chest and lungs. Nearly all the fat people I know wear it around the belly.
A semi-unrelated aside - over the past year of the pandemic I have actually lost over 80 lbs. Just not feeling very hungry. OTOH, my drinking did increase a bit, but not nearly enough to offset the loss. Over 285 down to about 208.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 4, 2021 14:57:57 GMT -6
Like i said, I can whip up a "study" that proves nearly anything. "Studies" on their own are meaningless. You have to research who conducted and who published the "study". It's actually not that hard. Right, we agree on that. Where we differ is that I think people should be allowed to publicly talk about those studies and discuss those differences. Not be dismissed out of hand because it doesn’t fit what the CDC/WHO is pushing. The problem is that the majority of people don't actually know what they're talking about and behave as if they do. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 4, 2021 15:00:57 GMT -6
Thats a good point Eric, but I have a counter! lol I can tell you from personal experience, and I can explain the physics if need be, but obese people can be much harder to manage on a mechanical ventilator. It’s a compliance issue mostly. The vent has to work harder to push open the lungs against the increased body mass. That results in more lung injury. And COVID itself causes lung compliance issues. So while you make a good point, I believe that even when you adjust for the population at large being overweight, the obese would be still be shown to be dying at higher rates (all other things bring even). That’s my own anecdotal experience, but the physics and science behind it is pretty sound. Well, unless the person is EXTREMELY, MORBIDLY obese the bulk of the weight is not pressing on the chest and lungs. Nearly all the fat people I know wear it around the belly.
A semi-unrelated aside - over the past year of the pandemic I have actually lost over 80 lbs. Just not feeling very hungry. OTOH, my drinking did increase a bit, but not nearly enough to offset the loss. Over 285 down to about 208.
Congrats on the weight loss, sincerely. That’s great. However, your comment about the obese is wrong. I’m a respiratory therapist. I promise you I’m not making this stuff up. I run ventilators all day long. I thoroughly understand this stuff. Chest Wall Compliance issues are real, and caused by many things, including obesity. And when laid flat on a bed your belly weight pushes on your diaphragm and causes compliance issues from that angle as well. |
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Post by seawell on Aug 4, 2021 15:28:57 GMT -6
(A) Giving zero credit for natural immunity is junk science and politically motivated. (B) Saying someone doesn’t read well is low and unnecessary. Can we not disagree without insulting one another? If you’re ok with accepting everything you’ve been told because..”science”…then fine. We don’t have to agree but what I’m not going to let slide is junk science hiding behind political motives. Painting unvaccinated people with a broad stroke giving no consideration to those that have recovered from covid is irresponsible. For example, the band The Offspring just fired their drummer because he won’t take the vaccine. He’s already had covid AND he took years to recover from a case of guillian barre from another vaccine! Why on earth would he risk that again? I think there are a lot of people that SHOULD get vaccinated. I think there is a smaller group that SHOULD NOT. All I’m asking for is respect and consideration for that group. It does not work for everyone and a 100% vaccine approach to ending a pandemic has plenty of flaws to it. There are serious, well qualified doctors and scientists that have these concerns. Is it a minority view? Sure! But let’s not pretend like I’m pulling this out of thin air. If you’re interested in productive discussion then I’ll gladly engage…if you just want to hurl personal insults then you can kindly take a hike. I don't "accdept what I'm told by any of the mass media or "social" websites. Anything thats's allegedly "science" gets checked out in the real scientific literature. Stuff from known political fronts is rejected out of hand. I also check the credentials of the authors. And I know the differernce between an X-ray tech at Stanford and a real scientist. I don't need to waste my time with paid liars. Same with obviously fake "studies". I can write a "study" to "prove" the moon is made of green cheese. Doesn't make it true.
We can discuss if you'll stop posting propaganda.
BTW, who is this group that should not? Religious nuts? No. They should. Wannabe suicides? No, use a gun and don't endanger everyone else. Or a rope. Or a needle. There are plenty of ways to kill yourself without endangering others.
I gave you a direct example…someone with natural immunity and a previous vaccine injury. I share information from doctors and scientists that have a differing point of view than the mainstream medical community. I’ve laid out in this thread in way more personal detail than I’d ever care to share…exactly why I come from that perspective. I take it you haven’t taken the time to read through any of that or you wouldn’t be coming out all guns a blazin’. I’m not quite sure what to say to the rant at the end…that was really something. I sincerely hope you’ll chill out and add something productive to the thread. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 4, 2021 15:32:18 GMT -6
Yes and no, the problem is 75 percent of those who end up in the hospital are obese, that also tracks with the estimate that 73-78 percent of the US is obese. That’s thing with numbers on this one we need more data. Now at 6ft 2in 180lbs I feel I can say this but most of Americans think everybody else is over weight except them, but around 75 of America is. Of course as a burn doc told me a year ago I pretty much am a walking talking co-morbidity on this thing. Thats a good point Eric, but I have a counter! lol I can tell you from personal experience, and I can explain the physics if need be, but obese people can be much harder to manage on a mechanical ventilator. It’s a compliance issue mostly. The vent has to work harder to push open the lungs against the increased body mass. That results in more lung injury. And COVID itself causes lung compliance issues. So while you make a good point, I believe that even when you adjust for the population at large being overweight, the obese would be still be shown to be dying at higher rates (all other things bring even). That’s my own anecdotal experience, but the physics and science behind it is pretty sound. You know the vent better than me my friend. The thing is COVID has made the issue of obesity political. It is pretty much excepted that obesity stresses almost every system. My point was aimed more at diagnosis than severity and outcome. I think with all COVID related figures we need to break them down by 1. infection 2. severity 3. outcome I would add variant but typing is limited and inconsistent (next pandemic buy Labcorp and Quest stock without wife finding out). |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 4, 2021 17:44:13 GMT -6
Like i said, I can whip up a "study" that proves nearly anything. "Studies" on their own are meaningless. You have to research who conducted and who published the "study". It's actually not that hard. Right, we agree on that. Where we differ is that I think people should be allowed to publicly talk about those studies and discuss those differences. Not be dismissed out of hand because it doesn’t fit what the CDC/WHO is pushing. People should NOT be allowed to spead misinformation that KILLS PEOPLE. iIf you disagree, please justify your position.
Not all "opinions" are equal.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 4, 2021 17:47:56 GMT -6
I don't "accdept what I'm told by any of the mass media or "social" websites. Anything thats's allegedly "science" gets checked out in the real scientific literature. Stuff from known political fronts is rejected out of hand. I also check the credentials of the authors. And I know the differernce between an X-ray tech at Stanford and a real scientist. I don't need to waste my time with paid liars. Same with obviously fake "studies". I can write a "study" to "prove" the moon is made of green cheese. Doesn't make it true.
We can discuss if you'll stop posting propaganda.
BTW, who is this group that should not? Religious nuts? No. They should. Wannabe suicides? No, use a gun and don't endanger everyone else. Or a rope. Or a needle. There are plenty of ways to kill yourself without endangering others.
I gave you a direct example…someone with natural immunity and a previous vaccine injury. I share information from doctors and scientists that have a differing point of view than the mainstream medical community. I’ve laid out in this thread in way more personal detail than I’d ever care to share…exactly why I come from that perspective. I take it you haven’t taken the time to read through any of that or you wouldn’t be coming out all guns a blazin’. I’m not quite sure what to say to the rant at the end…that was really something. I sincerely hope you’ll chill out and add something productive to the thread. Some people who managed to obtain a medical license are, nonetheless, utter, absolute nuts. You MUST research your sources.
This IS "something productive".
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 4, 2021 17:53:14 GMT -6
Right, we agree on that. Where we differ is that I think people should be allowed to publicly talk about those studies and discuss those differences. Not be dismissed out of hand because it doesn’t fit what the CDC/WHO is pushing. People should NOT be allowed to spead misinformation that KILLS PEOPLE. iIf you disagree, please justify your position.
Not all "opinions" are equal.
I already have justified my position, pretty clearly over 36 pages of this thread which you’ve obviously not read. It pretty obvious you didn’t really even read my last few posts. If you don’t have anything productive to contribute kindly stop participating in this thread. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 4, 2021 17:55:27 GMT -6
People should NOT be allowed to spead misinformation that KILLS PEOPLE. iIf you disagree, please justify your position.
Not all "opinions" are equal.
I already have justified my position, pretty clearly over 36 pages of this thread which you’ve obviously not read. It pretty obvious you didn’t really even read my last few posts. If you don’t have anything productive to contribute kindly stop participating in this thread. BS is BS. And I will oppose it wherever I encounter it.
By "productive" I assume you mean "supporting your agenda". Because there is nothing in what you're saying that is scientifically supported. By SCIENTISTS, not propagandists.
Sorry, s'truth.
The sooner we get this over, the better, You are not contributing to this.
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Post by seawell on Aug 4, 2021 18:28:07 GMT -6
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 4, 2021 19:03:59 GMT -6
I already have justified my position, pretty clearly over 36 pages of this thread which you’ve obviously not read. It pretty obvious you didn’t really even read my last few posts. If you don’t have anything productive to contribute kindly stop participating in this thread. BS is BS. And I will oppose it wherever I encounter it.
By "productive" I assume you mean "supporting your agenda". Because there is nothing in what you're saying that is scientifically supported. By SCIENTISTS, not propagandists.
Sorry, s'truth.
The sooner we get this over, the better, You are not contributing to this.
By your statements you obviously have no idea what my supposed “agenda” is. Lol. Maybe do some research into what we’ve been discussing, in this thread, before getting riled up and arguing with people over points they never made. It’s kind of hysterical how you’re arguing with yourself. 😂 Now please, kindly refrain from posting in this thread. There were 36 pages of heated, passionate, and totally (or mostly) respectful debate being had between us all until you decided to jump in. It was really rather amazing that we made it this far, keeping things civil while discussing such heated topics. You’re ruining that, unintentionally I’m sure. Never the less, you’re poisoning the well. Thanks And congrats again on the weight loss. 80lbs is a huge deal. You must feel so much better. 👍 |
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Post by drbill on Aug 4, 2021 19:15:47 GMT -6
I only have one thing to say..... She blinded me with SCIENCE!! |
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Post by dmo on Aug 4, 2021 19:18:24 GMT -6
When I started this thread 7 months ago the intent was to let people know they might need to schedule a day or two off following vaccination - my attempt at a "be prepared to feel fairly crappy" public service announcement. Didn't anticipate it evolving into the long thread it has become, although in retrospect maybe I should have. I've checked in from time to time, occasionally trying to help clarify things like causality vice correlation, but in general it was pretty clear that most people were convinced of their view/opinions (both sides) and unlikely to change based on anything presented.
So here we are 1.5 years into this pandemic, and facing another surge (Delta). In many parts of the US, hospitals are again reaching capacity and facing bed/staffing shortages. To date there is still no effective treatment for Covid-19, with supportive care remaining the primary treatment for hospitalized individuals. Vaccination remains controversial as it remains under an EUA, and it does not guarantee immunity and does carry some risk. I just want to provide some recent data for consideration that may help people better understand risk/benefit so you can make the best decisions for yourself and family. Source primarily CDC (which has been the go to data source for all US infectious diseases for years - it is considered the credible source for the medical community), "borrowed" from my EM Doc group. For perspective, in the last few days Docs are posting online looking for available beds, many out of state (saw one transfer from Missouri to Colorado). In another, a Doc in Texas was looking for an ECMO (extra corporal membrane oxygenation) bed - similar to open heart-lung bypass - used for the sickest patients - for their 34 year old best friend (previously healthy, no comorbidities but unvaccinated). There were none in TX or nearby states, the closest facility had 16 under 40 year old Covid patients on a wait list ahead of her friend., who unfortunately died the next day.
This remains a serious illness that affects us all directly or indirectly - please be safe and take care.
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Post by Ward on Aug 4, 2021 19:26:38 GMT -6
Before commenting, I'd like to point out that just like my family doctor, I am not a research scientist unlike my son . . . who is actually a research scientists working in the field of human biology, infectious diseases etc. So I get to hear a fair bit of actual science . . . and haven't read a lot of actual science here. Knowing this, a forumite I know well warned my that this thread was blowing up and that Johnkenn would probably close it now. After readying it, i suspect he's correct. So without further ado . . .  |
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Post by drbill on Aug 4, 2021 20:08:17 GMT -6
warned my that this thread was blowing up and that Johnkenn would probably close it now. After readying it, i suspect he's correct. That would be a shame. Lots of good stuff here before today. Maybe the thread needs recent MODERATING. I'm willing to have my Science post nuked. Hell, I'd even do it myself if I thought it would help. Somehow I think it needs to stay though, but I defer to the powers that be.... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 4, 2021 21:36:48 GMT -6
I really have zero interest in getting involved.
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Post by OtisGreying on Aug 5, 2021 5:34:51 GMT -6
When I started this thread 7 months ago the intent was to let people know they might need to schedule a day or two off following vaccination - my attempt at a "be prepared to feel fairly crappy" public service announcement. Didn't anticipate it evolving into the long thread it has become, although in retrospect maybe I should have. I've checked in from time to time, occasionally trying to help clarify things like causality vice correlation, but in general it was pretty clear that most people were convinced of their view/opinions (both sides) and unlikely to change based on anything presented.
So here we are 1.5 years into this pandemic, and facing another surge (Delta). In many parts of the US, hospitals are again reaching capacity and facing bed/staffing shortages. To date there is still no effective treatment for Covid-19, with supportive care remaining the primary treatment for hospitalized individuals. Vaccination remains controversial as it remains under an EUA, and it does not guarantee immunity and does carry some risk. I just want to provide some recent data for consideration that may help people better understand risk/benefit so you can make the best decisions for yourself and family. Source primarily CDC (which has been the go to data source for all US infectious diseases for years - it is considered the credible source for the medical community), "borrowed" from my EM Doc group. For perspective, in the last few days Docs are posting online looking for available beds, many out of state (saw one transfer from Missouri to Colorado). In another, a Doc in Texas was looking for an ECMO (extra corporal membrane oxygenation) bed - similar to open heart-lung bypass - used for the sickest patients - for their 34 year old best friend (previously healthy, no comorbidities but unvaccinated). There were none in TX or nearby states, the closest facility had 16 under 40 year old Covid patients on a wait list ahead of her friend., who unfortunately died the next day.
This remains a serious illness that affects us all directly or indirectly - please be safe and take care.
That’s a shame. The faster we can all get on the same page with some plan of action the better. Anything really. |
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Post by Quint on Aug 5, 2021 9:50:38 GMT -6
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Post by seawell on Aug 6, 2021 16:45:52 GMT -6
I don’t know man, that wasn’t a very convincing article in my opinion. I’ve noticed a trend over the past year and a half where people are saying “there’s no evidence showing…” as if something is settled science. A lot of times I’ve found that to actually mean it hasn’t been properly investigated yet. In this article the author says that about the delta variant & the amount of illegal immigrants that have crossed the border. He says it in passing like it’s case closed but offers no proof of how anyone has even attempted to track that. It seems a little unrealistic that the massive amount of people crossing the border this year hasn’t impacted a border state like Texas. Anyway…case in point, this “there’s no evidence” didn’t age very well: This kind of article reminds me of when Jay Leno would send someone out on the street to ask questions to tourists. The segment would lead you to believe that area is completely made up of morons. The key was that they wouldn’t show the people that answered correctly(or maybe only one). It was funny but it wasn’t an accurate representation. So, if I’m writing an article like this, it isn’t hard to spot people that will probably help shape my narrative for the article(people not wearing a mask would be a good start). Anyway, the author frames these people as crazy, gullible, ignorant…and some may be…but then he ends it by getting a tarot card reading from the guy that sells magic crystals 😂 He focuses entirely on the “conservatives aren’t getting vaccinated” narrative but doesn’t even mention the fact that the black community vaccination rate is around 28%. That same community votes roughly 90% dem. I think this is much bigger that left vs right and I wish they would leave that out of this. I still say a therapeutic + vaccine approach is the final push that will end this. The people left that aren’t vaccinated are a hard “no” from what I’ve seen and shaming or vaccine passports is just causing people to double down on that stance. |
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