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Post by seawell on Jul 17, 2021 18:53:48 GMT -6
Are you talking about school districts that are banning critical race theory? Yes. I'm all for teaching accurate history, warts and all(so we can learn from it) but critical race theory is a steaming pile of dog š© and that's about the nicest way I can put it š¤£ |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 17, 2021 20:49:55 GMT -6
No ones speech is being restricted. The disinformation will flow as it has been, and the opposing side will make the case against it. This can and should happen regardless of the party in executive power. Regular, democratic (small d) discourse. Not sure how much more āfree speechā it gets than that. That is/was not my understanding of what is/will happen. Then your understanding is wrong. Likely because you've been consuming exactly the sorts of misleading information we're discussing here. The fact is, the admin actually isn't even directly involved with the text message policing. What is *actually* happening, is that the DNC is notifying wireless comms companies when a user violates their terms of service. You or I could do the same should any partisan or non-partisan misuse these platforms' technology. Nobody's private text messages are being read. Nobody's free speech is being stopped. This is all laid out pretty clearly in the Politico article that fox and co. got all up in arms about (did you read that article? if not, you definitely should), but the disinformation was sown and amplified by precisely the kinds of people my last few posts have been indicting. Honestly, the only way I can imagine coming to the conclusion that private texts will be spied upon and that the government will directly intervene with wireless comms companies to stifle free speech is by consuming one, very specific type of media, and accepting it as gospel on its face without any real effort to look into its veracity. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jul 17, 2021 22:02:10 GMT -6
I'm all for teaching accurate history, warts and all(so we can learn from it) but critical race theory is a steaming pile of dog š© and that's about the nicest way I can put it š¤£ Of course you're welcome to your own opinion...even if you're right, it's no more a pile than some of the faux medical advice we've been discussing. Where do we draw the line when it comes to the individual freedom to use this platform or that platform to express an opinion on any given subject? |
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Post by seawell on Jul 17, 2021 22:11:41 GMT -6
I'm all for teaching accurate history, warts and all(so we can learn from it) but critical race theory is a steaming pile of dog š© and that's about the nicest way I can put it š¤£ Of course you're welcome to your own opinion...even if you're right, it's no more a pile than some of the faux medical advice we've been discussing.Ā Where do we draw the line when it comes to the individual freedom to use this platform or that platform to express an opinion on any given subject? Iād say the difference is weāre adults here and can sort through this stuff ourselves. Indoctrinating children in a classroom setting is a different case altogether, no? |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jul 17, 2021 22:16:48 GMT -6
I guess it depends. More McCarthy? No. But is this like McCarthy or is it more like FCC regulations? I think we're in a period where the line between the two is blurry. There's some of both happening in different segments of society. If this is closer to FCC regulations, which I believe it is, our society will spend some time sorting itself out and come to some sort of balance as we have every time a new communication technology has been introduced. Now that we understand how easily social media can be weaponized, we have to figure out how to balance individual freedoms with the public interest. It's going to take a minute. And, again, let's keep in mind that those who cry most loudly about censorship are doing great business as a result. It's nowhere near the McCarthy era where folks were run out of business for speaking their mind. Depends on what? And from whose perspective? Where are you going to draw that fine line Ehren??  . Plus, it's not just social media. It's SMS / Texts too. That involves HUGE companies like AT&T and Verizon, etc.. This is just not a good path to go down. Depends on whether it's more like McCarthy or the FCC. I honestly don't know where to draw the line, but I can say that we've functioned reasonably well as a society which values free speech with regulations here and there. |
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 17, 2021 22:25:15 GMT -6
Depends on what? And from whose perspective? Where are you going to draw that fine line Ehren?? . Plus, it's not just social media. It's SMS / Texts too. That involves HUGE companies like AT&T and Verizon, etc.. This is just not a good path to go down. Depends on whether it's more like McCarthy or the FCC. I honestly don't know where to draw the line, but I can say that we've functioned reasonably well as a society which values free speech with regulations here and there. It actually DOESNT involve huge companies like AT&T or Verizon, so it's a moot point. The fact is that texts flagged will be for violations of terms of service with SMS APIs, not with carriers themselves. It would be like flagging a post on social media for hate speech, sexual content, or any other TOS violation, or for a user on this site alerting the mods know if we're rapping politics over here.  |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jul 18, 2021 7:09:40 GMT -6
Of course you're welcome to your own opinion...even if you're right, it's no more a pile than some of the faux medical advice we've been discussing. Where do we draw the line when it comes to the individual freedom to use this platform or that platform to express an opinion on any given subject? Iād say the difference is weāre adults here and can sort through this stuff ourselves. Indoctrinating children in a classroom setting is a different case altogether, no? I don't think critical race theory has been part of any childhood education curriculum. It's been around for decades and few of us had even heard of it before you know who took aim at the 1619 Project. That said, why shouldn't children learn that the US was founded on the backs of slaves? Why shouldn't they learn that racism has shaped facets of public policy and private industry throughout much of our country's history, including our own lifetimes? Speaking of indoctrination, I find it interesting that there is a parallel push to indoctrinate children with religious beliefs in public schools. I'd love to believe that adults can sort through this ourselves. Unfortunately, adults have been making massive errors in judgement for all of human history with absolutely brutal consequences. I understand that adults should have the freedom to form their own ideas and to be responsible for the outcomes, but during crisis our society always struggles to figure out where the line is between individual freedom and public good. I think that we've been heading in the right direction as a whole when it comes to managing crisis. McCarthyism is seen as a wrong. We didn't send Arab Americans to internment camps as we did Japanese Americans in a previous generation. We no longer draft 18 year old Americans into war. Still, we have to contend with new technology in the midst of a crisis and we have to re-examine the line between individual freedom and public good. It's messy, but it's nowhere near as messy as it has been in relatively recent times. The sky is not falling. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 18, 2021 7:23:24 GMT -6
Iād say the difference is weāre adults here and can sort through this stuff ourselves. Indoctrinating children in a classroom setting is a different case altogether, no? I don't think critical race theory has been part of any childhood education curriculum.Ā It's been around for decades and few of us had even heard of it before you know who took aim at the 1619 Project.Ā That said, why shouldn't children learn that the US was founded on the backs of slaves?Ā Why shouldn't they learn that racism has shaped facets of public policy and private industry throughout much of our country's history, including our own lifetimes?Ā Speaking of indoctrination, I find it interesting that there is a parallel push to indoctrinate children with religious beliefs in public schools.Ā Ā I'd love to believe that adults can sort through this ourselves.Ā Unfortunately, adults have been making massive errors in judgement for all of human history with absolutely brutal consequences.Ā I understand that adults should have the freedom to form their own ideas and to be responsible for the outcomes, but during crisis our society always struggles to figure out where the line is between individual freedom and public good.Ā Ā I think that we've been heading in the right direction as a whole when it comes to managing crisis.Ā McCarthyism is seen as a wrong.Ā We didn't send Arab Americans to internment camps as we did Japanese Americans in a previous generation.Ā We no longer draft 18 year old Americans into war.Ā Still, we have to contend with new technology in the midst of a crisis and we have to re-examine the line between individual freedom and public good.Ā It's messy, but it's nowhere near as messy as it has been in relatively recent times.Ā The sky is not falling. CRT is absolutely being taught in k-12 schools. Iām guessing you donāt have kids or if you do you live in a red state? And itās not being taught for what it is, a neo-marxist socio-political ideology, itās being taught as fact. The ugly truth of slavery, racism and inequality has always been taught in schools, maybe not enough but we all learned about civil rights, reconstruction, Jim Crow etc in school (at least I did). But when school teachers take grade schoolers and ask them to self identify as oppressors becomes of their race, itās racist. When they tell kids that they can and should discriminate against people based on their skin color, as long as it benefits historically oppressed minorities itās racist. When they teach kids that ātraits of whitenessā such as āhard workā and ārational thoughtā are just tools of white supremacy itās harmful. When they teach kids that science, rationalism, objective thought, and empirical evidence are tools of white supremacy, itās harmful. When they teach kids that science isnāt the ālanguage of POCā itās racist. Is it any wonder that rational people of all colors are horrified by this ideology? |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jul 18, 2021 8:03:07 GMT -6
I don't think critical race theory has been part of any childhood education curriculum. It's been around for decades and few of us had even heard of it before you know who took aim at the 1619 Project. That said, why shouldn't children learn that the US was founded on the backs of slaves? Why shouldn't they learn that racism has shaped facets of public policy and private industry throughout much of our country's history, including our own lifetimes? Speaking of indoctrination, I find it interesting that there is a parallel push to indoctrinate children with religious beliefs in public schools. I'd love to believe that adults can sort through this ourselves. Unfortunately, adults have been making massive errors in judgement for all of human history with absolutely brutal consequences. I understand that adults should have the freedom to form their own ideas and to be responsible for the outcomes, but during crisis our society always struggles to figure out where the line is between individual freedom and public good. I think that we've been heading in the right direction as a whole when it comes to managing crisis. McCarthyism is seen as a wrong. We didn't send Arab Americans to internment camps as we did Japanese Americans in a previous generation. We no longer draft 18 year old Americans into war. Still, we have to contend with new technology in the midst of a crisis and we have to re-examine the line between individual freedom and public good. It's messy, but it's nowhere near as messy as it has been in relatively recent times. The sky is not falling. CRT is absolutely being taught in k-12 schools. Iām guessing you donāt have kids or if you do you live in a red state? And itās not being taught for what it is, a neo-marxist socio-political ideology, itās being taught as fact. The ugly truth of slavery, racism and inequality has always been taught in schools, maybe not enough but we all learned about civil rights, reconstruction, Jim Crow etc in school (at least I did). But when school teachers take grade schoolers and ask them to self identify as oppressors becomes of their race, itās racist. When they tell kids that they can and should discriminate against people based on their skin color, as long as it benefits historically oppressed minorities itās racist. When they teach kids that ātraits of whitenessā such as āhard workā and ārational thoughtā are just tools of white supremacy itās harmful. When they teach kids that science, rationalism, objective thought, and empirical evidence are tools of white supremacy, itās harmful. When they teach kids that science isnāt the ālanguage of POCā itās racist. Is it any wonder that rational people of all colors are horrified by this ideology? I have two young children. I live in Eugene, Oregon. I grew up here and in Oakland, California. I've lived in Seattle, Los Angeles and Nashville. One might say I've been in the belly of the liberal beast : ) To be blunt, I think you are oversimplifying and understating the nuances of the discussion. It's too much to go into in a thread about Covid, but if you haven't already I'd encourage you to read about these concepts, not just the criticisms of them. They aren't quite as simple as what you've described here. Either way, I'm fine with teaching children that our society has been structured from the start to oppress members of minority groups, and that we are effectively participating in that oppression if we aren't helping to work against it. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 18, 2021 10:45:47 GMT -6
CRT is absolutely being taught in k-12 schools. Iām guessing you donāt have kids or if you do you live in a red state? And itās not being taught for what it is, a neo-marxist socio-political ideology, itās being taught as fact. The ugly truth of slavery, racism and inequality has always been taught in schools, maybe not enough but we all learned about civil rights, reconstruction, Jim Crow etc in school (at least I did). But when school teachers take grade schoolers and ask them to self identify as oppressors becomes of their race, itās racist. When they tell kids that they can and should discriminate against people based on their skin color, as long as it benefits historically oppressed minorities itās racist. When they teach kids that ātraits of whitenessā such as āhard workā and ārational thoughtā are just tools of white supremacy itās harmful. When they teach kids that science, rationalism, objective thought, and empirical evidence are tools of white supremacy, itās harmful. When they teach kids that science isnāt the ālanguage of POCā itās racist. Is it any wonder that rational people of all colors are horrified by this ideology? I have two young children.Ā I live in Eugene, Oregon.Ā I grew up here and in Oakland, California.Ā I've lived in Seattle, Los Angeles and Nashville.Ā One might say I've been in the belly of the liberal beast : )Ā To be blunt, I think you are oversimplifying and understating the nuances of the discussion.Ā It's too much to go into in a thread about Covid, but if you haven't already I'd encourage you to read about these concepts, not just the criticisms of them.Ā They aren't quite as simple as what you've described here.Ā Either way, I'm fine with teaching children that our society has been structured from the start to oppress members of minority groups, and that we are effectively participating in that oppression if we aren't helping to work against it.Ā Ā Ā I live in Portland. Iāve read my daughters assignments, Iāve complained and flat out refused to have her complete some of them. I know what Iām talking about. Iāve done extensive reading into the subject. Iām one of the few that knew what CRT was over 5 years ago. From the Marxist scholars in the Frankfurt School, to the creation of Critical Theory to its evolution through academia at Harvard and Columbia in the 70ās etc etc. and onto the pop pseudo intellectual books like White Fragility and How to Be An Antiracist. Iāve done my homework, but thank you for assuming that I donāt know what Iām talking about Youāre right, this isnāt the forum for it, as I said before in one of my previous posts. So out of respect for Johns rules and RGO Iāll say no more about it. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jul 18, 2021 11:03:16 GMT -6
I have two young children. I live in Eugene, Oregon. I grew up here and in Oakland, California. I've lived in Seattle, Los Angeles and Nashville. One might say I've been in the belly of the liberal beast : ) To be blunt, I think you are oversimplifying and understating the nuances of the discussion. It's too much to go into in a thread about Covid, but if you haven't already I'd encourage you to read about these concepts, not just the criticisms of them. They aren't quite as simple as what you've described here. Either way, I'm fine with teaching children that our society has been structured from the start to oppress members of minority groups, and that we are effectively participating in that oppression if we aren't helping to work against it. I live in Portland. Iāve read my daughters assignments, Iāve complained and flat out refused to have her complete some of them. I know what Iām talking about. Iāve done extensive reading into the subject. Iām one of the few that knew what CRT was over 5 years ago. From the Marxist scholars in the Frankfurt School, to the creation of Critical Theory to its evolution through academia at Harvard and Columbia in the 70ās etc etc. and onto the pop pseudo intellectual books like White Fragility and How to Be An Antiracist. Iāve done my homework, but thank you for assuming that I donāt know what Iām talking about Youāre right, this isnāt the forum for it, as I said before in one of my previous posts. So out of respect for Johns rules and RGO Iāll say no more about it. Understood. To be clear, I didn't mean to make the assumption that you don't know what you're talking about. Most people who are discussing this today are coming from an uninformed place. Your perspective and experience sounds informed, just different from mine which I understand and respect. Feel free to DM me if you'd like to let me know more about what your daughter's school is up to. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 18, 2021 12:52:45 GMT -6
I live in Portland. Iāve read my daughters assignments, Iāve complained and flat out refused to have her complete some of them. I know what Iām talking about. Iāve done extensive reading into the subject. Iām one of the few that knew what CRT was over 5 years ago. From the Marxist scholars in the Frankfurt School, to the creation of Critical Theory to its evolution through academia at Harvard and Columbia in the 70ās etc etc. and onto the pop pseudo intellectual books like White Fragility and How to Be An Antiracist. Iāve done my homework, but thank you for assuming that I donāt know what Iām talking about Youāre right, this isnāt the forum for it, as I said before in one of my previous posts. So out of respect for Johns rules and RGO Iāll say no more about it. Understood.Ā To be clear, I didn't mean to make the assumption that you don't know what you're talking about.Ā Most people who are discussing this today are coming from an uninformed place.Ā Your perspective and experience sounds informed, just different from mine which I understand and respect.Ā Feel free to DM me if you'd like to let me know more about what your daughter's school is up to. I appreciate the respectful response. I wasnāt sure how to read the tone of your message so thank you. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jul 18, 2021 17:21:53 GMT -6
Understood. To be clear, I didn't mean to make the assumption that you don't know what you're talking about. Most people who are discussing this today are coming from an uninformed place. Your perspective and experience sounds informed, just different from mine which I understand and respect. Feel free to DM me if you'd like to let me know more about what your daughter's school is up to. I appreciate the respectful response. I wasnāt sure how to read the tone of your message so thank you. Absolutely. I'm sorry it came off that way. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Jul 19, 2021 11:21:01 GMT -6
File under profit motive for stirring up society:
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 19, 2021 13:25:29 GMT -6
"Medical Jim Crow" š¤¦š»āāļø
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 19, 2021 13:30:33 GMT -6
File under profit motive for stirring up society: I keep hearing how great that show is on the Hill. Iāll have to check it out more. I really appreciate calm, intelligent discussion of the issues and really despise the hyperbole and outrage thats spewed from both sides. Thanks for the link. |
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Post by seawell on Jul 19, 2021 15:36:24 GMT -6
File under profit motive for stirring up society: I keep hearing how great that show is on the Hill. Iāll have to check it out more. I really appreciate calm, intelligent discussion of the issues and really despise the hyperbole and outrage thats spewed from both sides. Thanks for the link. If I had to guess, you were probably hearing about it when Krystal & Sagaar hosted. They recently left and are here now: youtube.com/c/breakingpoints |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 19, 2021 15:51:22 GMT -6
I keep hearing how great that show is on the Hill. Iāll have to check it out more. I really appreciate calm, intelligent discussion of the issues and really despise the hyperbole and outrage thats spewed from both sides. Thanks for the link. If I had to guess, you were probably hearing about it when Krystal & Sagaar hosted. They recently left and are here now: youtube.com/c/breakingpointsThanks, yeah I heard there were some lineup changes but was confused about who was who! |
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Post by seawell on Jul 19, 2021 16:07:38 GMT -6
If I had to guess, you were probably hearing about it when Krystal & Sagaar hosted. They recently left and are here now: youtube.com/c/breakingpointsThanks, yeah I heard there were some lineup changes but was confused about who was who! Youāre welcome! No offense to the new hosts but I just think Kystal & Sagaar have better chemistry & energy. They balance each other out really well, I enjoy their show. |
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Post by rowmat on Jul 19, 2021 17:05:19 GMT -6
The Hill went āover the hillā after Krystal and Sagaar left.
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Post by OtisGreying on Jul 22, 2021 1:22:39 GMT -6
When do we actually WANT the federal gov getting involved in what they deem "truth"? Especially if it pertains to our personal health decisions. I personally don't need that kind of help with my health decisions. I'm finding, many people do need that help with their medical decisions. Many people are falling down the rabbit hole of believing the vaccine is designed for mass murder, population control and infertility. And what may that result in?
It's not a small amount of people seriously believing these things. And if in 5 years from now we are able to say the vaccine was a safer route than getting COVID/Delta-covid then many lives will be lost specifically do to this misinformation that is being let soar under the banner of free speech. No?
I'm in favor of censoring life threatening misinformation, I'm sure you wouldn't back YouTube videos titled "10 Health Benefits of Drinking Anthrax Smoothies" circling around the web. But of course, how do we know the information in question isn't the savior we should have all listened to, who had the answer, that we called crazy? That's the big question I'm dealing with as I debate getting the vaccine. I can say however that I whole heartedly believe there is no new world order plot for de-population, and that if I had to chose Delta/Covid or the vaccine I would probably chose the vaccine based off of what I've seen.
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Post by drbill on Jul 28, 2021 13:57:01 GMT -6
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Post by OtisGreying on Jul 28, 2021 18:56:08 GMT -6
I mean, what else was going to happen when our plan was to combat this virus with herd immunity through vaccination, and still a giant portion of the public wonāt get vaccinated. The head of the CDC today seemed very fearful that there may come a variant stronger then delta in the future due to lack of vaccinations that will be even worse than what weāre dealing with now. I donāt see any end to it unless people adopt the vaccines as they were supposed to in the first place. Most people wonāt until it hits home, hard.
Itās a total mess.
What evidence can one provide to shift perspective to someone who thinks everything is being rigged, schemed, planned and executed by mass murdering billionaires, and the people youāre trying to convince have discredited every single reputable organization possible that you can source or refer to?
Unfortunately I see a grim future of many more people dying than necessary because of this, and you can kiss goodbye a decent pace back to normalcy.
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 28, 2021 19:18:23 GMT -6
From one of your linked articles: "In just four months, the COVID-19 vaccines have killed more people than all available vaccines combined from mid-1997 until the end of 2013 ā a period of 15.5 years" C'mon. |
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Post by christopher on Jul 28, 2021 19:36:04 GMT -6
Personally I wanted to wait 1 year for vaccine, esp since Iām sure I had Covid last January when they said it was fake.. My wife is in healthcare and sheās a go-getter. She got the vaccine on day 1, I said ok.. if it doesnāt pan out I guess I get a nice new 8058.. she made it through two doses and then they opened up to everyone else. She made my
appointment and I was vaccinated before I even had to time to start a fight. Pfizer. They opened it to kids, I wanted to wait a little while for my daughter. I told her we need to wait 6months but really I wanted a year.. Day1 in the morning she told me my daughter was scheduled, she wanted it and got it done. Crap. Only not crap.
Now.. I do feel a like a lab rat, but itās also a giant relief to know Iām in the boat with all the rich people, the former presidents, the military, the CEOs, the doctors and scientists, the mafia selling it across the globe for marked up values. And while I get angry when I think of my future potential side effects, and those for my daughter, I am relieved right now, and I wish my son could get it. Even though I do worry for him and all of us as well. These new variants my wifeās department are monitoring are terrible. They spread easier and do break though even if you have a vaccine, but there have been very extremely few deaths for vaccinated, like nearly zero. I look at the numbers daily with her, Iām pretty good at numbers and can help really decide what itās saying, for real, no news BSā¦ she gets worried I get worried for her, but the numbers say the vaccinated can get hospitalized but they overwhelmingly still fight it off. This aligns with why we donāt die from yearly flu, yet the 1918-1920 Spanish flu was a pandemic.. if itās totally new the body, has no game plan to fight it. When we have vaccines, our bodies can defend itself down the road. I wish there were some better choices, rough times. I really really wish this was easier on all of us. It really sucks.
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