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Post by RealNoob on Dec 29, 2020 22:30:42 GMT -6
I like the Brauer model but I don't go 100%. I am not calibrating anything and I have yet to set up 5 lead Vox compression tracks. I like treating and compressing a few groups to make them gel and then on the master, using less compression and still gelling. I started using plugins that were close to the compressors he is reported to use but over time, I have made some changes that sound better to me.
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Post by Ward on Dec 29, 2020 22:52:55 GMT -6
Great post, dan. A further note, not in reference to your post: Nothing wrong with tracking with a lightning fast '76 and an opto to make sure you have most of the work done before it gets in the box and you don't have to rely on mediocre emulation either. You would think that by now with linear algebra and look-ahead features, the fastest compression would be software.... but, no.
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 29, 2020 23:07:56 GMT -6
@the other mark williams I haven’t tried Unisum and ProAudioDSP DSM yet. Do I need to? I don't own the ProAudioDSP DSM, but I remember demoing the original one maybe 10 years ago? It was good then, but I didn't buy it at the time. Paul Frindle is a smart guy with good ears. I imagine any updates to get it to v.3 have only improved it. As far as Unisum goes, yeah, I totally think it's worth trying it. Whether it'll be your cup of tea or not, I don't know, but it's possibly the most hardware-like plugin compressor I've personally ever used. I can understand why some Mastering Engineers are using it, even in lieu of hardware sometimes.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Dec 29, 2020 23:10:36 GMT -6
Skill still trumps everything else. Went by a local mic maker Sunday and checked out some things. We're both from the 90's Dallas surge of stuff and we talked about this at some point. 16-bit in the right hands was all you needed during the digital rage. Doesn't mean those hands weren't fighting it like hell, but it was possible. Not sure what MB is really trying to show at this point.
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Post by OtisGreying on Dec 29, 2020 23:15:13 GMT -6
You would think that by now with linear algebra and look-ahead features, the fastest compression would be software.... but, no. Seriously
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Post by schmalzy on Dec 29, 2020 23:31:15 GMT -6
The market is just targeted at tweakers who don’t have to do anything with their defective tools, who never release anything that’s been pressed commercially by someone else, who don’t have to do anything with a deadline. They never are paid 30-500 bucks a track to get it by the weekend and fixing that drummer’s drums is going toward keeping the lights on and letting me eat something other than peanut butter. The gearslutz apologists for bad stuff don’t understand that if said drums have defective compressor (Waves, Slate) clicks, weird crunchy old digital high end, or sounds like old death metal typewriter or modern rock sample and sinewave drums, the mixer is not getting paid that day. Revise or be fired. This is an interesting thing that I recently experienced. I had a guy in the studio who brought in $5000 worth of synthesizers for a noise record he and a friend of his wanted to do. They booked a day so we did the day! He talked up an down about how this analog synth was amazing and this other analog synth was amazing and how this Waldorf thing is the only digital that's amazing and... ...then he proceeded to push buttons and change patches for an hour trying to find something good to start with. His buddy and I created a sound on my MiniBrute and started four-handedly tweaking it in real-time creating a morphing bassline that became the basis for the whole track. It's speaking a little to what you're saying: the tools are to be used to accomplish a goal. Use good stuff that helps you work faster/better and enables you to help your artists create the art of their dreams.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 0:55:56 GMT -6
Great post, dan . A further note, not in reference to your post: Nothing wrong with tracking with a lightning fast '76 and an opto to make sure you have most of the work done before it gets in the box and you don't have to rely on mediocre emulation either. You would think that by now with linear algebra and look-ahead features, the fastest compression would be software.... but, no. The fastest is still the spectra complimiter which came out in what? 1969? Crazy. I agree. The other problem is a ton of the hardware recreations and clones of the classics are pretty much just as dysfunctional as the plugins minus the clicking and aliasing. They leave things out or get critical things wrong. Even the recreations made by the same companies as I've heard with the 1176 and API 2500 revisions/unit differences/whatever the hell they've done to it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 1:25:15 GMT -6
The market is just targeted at tweakers who don’t have to do anything with their defective tools, who never release anything that’s been pressed commercially by someone else, who don’t have to do anything with a deadline. They never are paid 30-500 bucks a track to get it by the weekend and fixing that drummer’s drums is going toward keeping the lights on and letting me eat something other than peanut butter. The gearslutz apologists for bad stuff don’t understand that if said drums have defective compressor (Waves, Slate) clicks, weird crunchy old digital high end, or sounds like old death metal typewriter or modern rock sample and sinewave drums, the mixer is not getting paid that day. Revise or be fired. This is an interesting thing that I recently experienced. I had a guy in the studio who brought in $5000 worth of synthesizers for a noise record he and a friend of his wanted to do. They booked a day so we did the day! He talked up an down about how this analog synth was amazing and this other analog synth was amazing and how this Waldorf thing is the only digital that's amazing and... ...then he proceeded to push buttons and change patches for an hour trying to find something good to start with. His buddy and I created a sound on my MiniBrute and started four-handedly tweaking it in real-time creating a morphing bassline that became the basis for the whole track. It's speaking a little to what you're saying: the tools are to be used to accomplish a goal. Use good stuff that helps you work faster/better and enables you to help your artists create the art of their dreams. Hahahahaha that's typical with all the tone wankers. The guys with pedal boards gone wrong, unplayable expensive guitars, broken old samplers etc. The tone geeks for crappy 80s and 90s gear are hilarious to me. Like yeah they paid hundreds of dollars for a recreation of the entombed pedal or a 12 bit sampler that breaks and sounds like shit without a ton of studio magic. They never have good songs and don't want to be told that those guys (and the beatles, led zeppelin, etc) would have plugged in and sounded good on anything.
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Post by theshea on Dec 30, 2020 2:50:49 GMT -6
i think those first league mixers going ITB just do their math right: lower budgets for mixing, high costs for mantaining outboard gear, time is money, recall in no time.
all this summed up: going ITB makes them earn more and makes the jobs easier.
and in the end who is going to hear the difference OTB/ITB when all is mastered and squashed? everybody happy in the end.
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 30, 2020 5:31:55 GMT -6
The market is just targeted at tweakers who don’t have to do anything with their defective tools, who never release anything that’s been pressed commercially by someone else, who don’t have to do anything with a deadline. They never are paid 30-500 bucks a track to get it by the weekend and fixing that drummer’s drums is going toward keeping the lights on and letting me eat something other than peanut butter. The gearslutz apologists for bad stuff don’t understand that if said drums have defective compressor (Waves, Slate) clicks, weird crunchy old digital high end, or sounds like old death metal typewriter or modern rock sample and sinewave drums, the mixer is not getting paid that day. Revise or be fired. This is an interesting thing that I recently experienced. I had a guy in the studio who brought in $5000 worth of synthesizers for a noise record he and a friend of his wanted to do. They booked a day so we did the day! He talked up an down about how this analog synth was amazing and this other analog synth was amazing and how this Waldorf thing is the only digital that's amazing and... ...then he proceeded to push buttons and change patches for an hour trying to find something good to start with. His buddy and I created a sound on my MiniBrute and started four-handedly tweaking it in real-time creating a morphing bassline that became the basis for the whole track. It's speaking a little to what you're saying: the tools are to be used to accomplish a goal. Use good stuff that helps you work faster/better and enables you to help your artists create the art of their dreams. Those mini brutes are awesome.
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Post by RealNoob on Dec 30, 2020 8:06:57 GMT -6
I'm sorry. I can't even bear to watch after seeing the front page screenshot. I bought the Black Box plugin and was so disappointed. I can do a lot with $39. Not even going to press play.....
+1
Used it for 3 minutes and thought - JESUS if the hardware sounds like this no one wants to hear this. The saturation sounds not good to my ears.
Not what I know from my hardware tube saturation unit, not even close. Klanghelm is miles ahead of this thing for 30 bucks too...
The people at PA were kind enough to let me swap it for a plug in I like more. May they refund you too, just ask.
MrHolmes, thanks for mentioning this.I just was able to swap the black box for the SSL 4000E. Had no idea to even ask until your post - much appreciated!
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Post by superwack on Dec 30, 2020 8:51:49 GMT -6
Thanks for all your insights dan Have you ever messed around with “attack modification” controls to improve the clicky attacks of ITB compressors? I’m thinking mostly of the Empirical Labs Arouser but a lot of the Acustica plugins also have the ability to fine tune the attack with a secondary control? Also wondering if you’ve tried the Lindell 254E (16X) as you’ve said you like the Lindell 80
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Post by craigmorris74 on Dec 30, 2020 9:17:14 GMT -6
Maybe it's because I use good plugs, but I've never heard the "clicky" attack that keeps getting referenced. It guarantee if I posted a hardware vs UAD 1176 comparison, people would have a hell of a time telling them apart (see who can post the best excuse as to why this isn't a proper test).
When it comes to the music listened to by human beings, most of it was mixed with some plugins, and many of these plugins are hardware emulations. If you look closely, the detractors often have vested interest in selling gear, or are "listening" to plugins through Plugin Doctor.
I track through 1176s, LA-3As, Spectra Sonics 610s, LA-2As, Neves, Altecs-and I don't have a problem reaching for a plugin when I need one at mixdown. Threads like this make me concerned that an inexperienced person could read this and think if they don't spend a truckload on hardware for mixing, they're doing something wrong.
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Post by ragan on Dec 30, 2020 9:42:32 GMT -6
Maybe it's because I use good plugs, but I've never heard the "clicky" attack that keeps getting referenced. It guarantee if I posted a hardware vs UAD 1176 comparison, people would have a hell of a time telling them apart (see who can post the best excuse as to why this isn't a proper test). When it comes to the music listened to by human beings, most of it was mixed with some plugins, and many of these plugins are hardware emulations. If you look closely, the detractors often have vested interest in selling gear, or are "listening" to plugins through Plugin Doctor. I track through 1176s, LA-3As, Spectra Sonics 610s, LA-2As, Neves, Altecs-and I don't have a problem reaching for a plugin when I need one at mixdown. Threads like this make me concerned that an inexperienced person could read this and think if they don't spend a truckload on hardware for mixing, they're doing something wrong. There is an awful lot of over-the-top hyperbole being thrown around as gospel truth.
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Post by tkaitkai on Dec 30, 2020 10:18:12 GMT -6
Have any of you tried Matthew Lane’s new TiCo compressor? I just downloaded the demo a few minutes ago and am going to check it out later but was curious if anyone had any thoughts I've been using it all month and it's really special. If you're like me and you like to squeeze vocals past any sensible point, the titanium comp in TiCo can do it without breaking a sweat. The cobalt + rhodium EQs are both unbelievably good for bright, modern pop/hiphop sort of vocals.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 10:48:56 GMT -6
Thanks for all your insights dan Have you ever messed around with “attack modification” controls to improve the clicky attacks of ITB compressors? I’m thinking mostly of the Empirical Labs Arouser but a lot of the Acustica plugins also have the ability to fine tune the attack with a secondary control? Also wondering if you’ve tried the Lindell 254E (16X) as you’ve said you like the Lindell 80 That can sometimes make the side chain detector “see“ the peaks but it’s pretty much a waste of time. You’ll be fiddling with it for an hours on a compressor that has an interesting tone, eg playing with the high pass to get PSP Fetpressor to take the peaks off like most hardware can, but the side chain signals are randomly bouncing around and you’re trying to get it to perform a job that setting can only do 25% of the time. You’d be better off using something else. Ever notice that the classics and lauded modern hardware are easy to use and have a ton of program dependencies? Most of them are feedback by necessity too in contrast to most digital compressors. They were made by smart people to actually work and not force the user to construct something workable.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 30, 2020 10:56:29 GMT -6
dan said mhbunch said Johnkenn was totally diplomatic withAnd nick8801 summed it up So in conclusion . . . Hype sells? Honestly, I also watched as much as I could before I finally paused it and had a read. Distortion does not make things sound better. That Black Box plugin? Burn it. I concur with drbill that $39 would buy a nice bottle of whiskey and allow for a nice relaxed mixing session without running everything through a ProCo Rat pedal. I really don't like the results outside of the drying up of the vocals and the slight boost in bass. JMHO, YMMV. Nah we all love distortion, it’s just that not all distortion is created equal! That Blackbox reminds me of the little Generic 10 watt amp from every Electric guitar package of the 80’s. It distorts just not in a good way.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 11:34:51 GMT -6
Maybe it's because I use good plugs, but I've never heard the "clicky" attack that keeps getting referenced. It guarantee if I posted a hardware vs UAD 1176 comparison, people would have a hell of a time telling them apart (see who can post the best excuse as to why this isn't a proper test). When it comes to the music listened to by human beings, most of it was mixed with some plugins, and many of these plugins are hardware emulations. If you look closely, the detractors often have vested interest in selling gear, or are "listening" to plugins through Plugin Doctor. I track through 1176s, LA-3As, Spectra Sonics 610s, LA-2As, Neves, Altecs-and I don't have a problem reaching for a plugin when I need one at mixdown. Threads like this make me concerned that an inexperienced person could read this and think if they don't spend a truckload on hardware for mixing, they're doing something wrong. The CLA 76, Black Rooster FET, and Slate 76 are horrible. They basically don’t work. The UAD 1176 also craps out on certain drums and voices. The Waves and UAD DBX 160 are also horrible. Most of the itb mixes in the last 15 years don’t have any real dynamic control until a limiter on a bus or the master squashes down the peaks. What’s there is often random, breathy, or pumping rather than attempting to sound natural. That’s pretty much the sound of a ton of modern music and why often the only depth in these mixes are the kick and snare detached from the kit maybe even in front the singer. Some modern analog modeled plugins can pretty much can hit 100% usage of a core on the latest cpus. There are components that require a ton of modeling and many programmers and companies half ass it or ignore it because it takes a ton of time and they want to see the return on investment (unfinished video game symptom), the programming is contracted out (a ton of plugins ship with bugs found in the beta test still present because the company doesn’t want to contract the programmer again to fix them), or for copy protection they’re coding for outdated DSP chips that get their ass whooped by modern CPUs so can’t include a ton of the non-linear behavior and code a decently behaving side-chain. I remember Slate gave UAD shit for not including some non-linearities and then the Slate 76 clicked like crazy.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 30, 2020 11:58:21 GMT -6
Maybe it's because I use good plugs, but I've never heard the "clicky" attack that keeps getting referenced. It guarantee if I posted a hardware vs UAD 1176 comparison, people would have a hell of a time telling them apart (see who can post the best excuse as to why this isn't a proper test). When it comes to the music listened to by human beings, most of it was mixed with some plugins, and many of these plugins are hardware emulations. If you look closely, the detractors often have vested interest in selling gear, or are "listening" to plugins through Plugin Doctor. I track through 1176s, LA-3As, Spectra Sonics 610s, LA-2As, Neves, Altecs-and I don't have a problem reaching for a plugin when I need one at mixdown. Threads like this make me concerned that an inexperienced person could read this and think if they don't spend a truckload on hardware for mixing, they're doing something wrong. The CLA 76, Black Rooster FET, and Slate 76 are horrible. They basically don’t work. The UAD 1176 also craps out on certain drums and voices. The Waves and UAD DBX 160 are also horrible. Most of the itb mixes in the last 15 years don’t have any real dynamic control until a limiter on a bus or the master squashes down the peaks. What’s there is often random, breathy, or pumping rather than attempting to sound natural. That’s pretty much the sound of a ton of modern music and why often the only depth in these mixes are the kick and snare detached from the kit maybe even in front the singer. Some modern analog modeled plugins can pretty much can hit 100% usage of a core on the latest cpus. There are components that require a ton of modeling and many programmers and companies half ass it or ignore it because it takes a ton of time and they want to see the return on investment (unfinished video game symptom), the programming is contracted out (a ton of plugins ship with bugs found in the beta test still present because the company doesn’t want to contract the programmer again to fix them), or for copy protection they’re coding for outdated DSP chips that get their ass whooped by modern CPUs so can’t include a ton of the non-linear behavior and code a decently behaving side-chain. I remember Slate gave UAD shit for not including some non-linearities and then the Slate 76 clicked like crazy. I always get the feeling many of the plug-in clones are voiced for quick demo- sale, it’s all about the perceived personality not the actual tool. It’s like just give me a separate distortion plug and a good recreation of what the comp should be doing!
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Post by christopher on Dec 30, 2020 12:00:45 GMT -6
Let’s say I spend a few months and make a nice plugin with an overdrive section, an EQ section, some compression, etc. make a nice GUI.. Who’s gonna buy it? Well we do know there are tens of thousands of home studios. If you consider every guitarist is becoming a “home studio” that number becomes millions and millions. Ok... so let’s say you spend a year making a record, digital downloads. Good luck selling that! Instead of recordings.. make a plugin= pretty same business model, same time investment, same distribution. MAJOR price difference. When’s the last time you bought a record for $499? Or even $35? So let’s say I partner with a big name and split the profits with them? It’s zero, I mean No work for them, to simply endorse it. Potentially Millions of fish to sell to. Checks can show up. I don’t know if MB has a setup like this, but I hope he does!!! I hope all the other guys get some kickback for their plugins. We all do this for the love of music, not really the business side, so good for them if they have a way to retire stress free. What’s the downside, good gear gets more affordable? And the plugins are pretty good anyway..
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Post by tkaitkai on Dec 30, 2020 12:08:04 GMT -6
Personally, I like the CLA 76. I don't think it sounds anything like an 1176, which is precisely why I find it useful.
A lot of plugins became infinitely more usable for me when I stopped expecting them to match analog and instead took them for what they are — another set of tools that have their own sound. It's mostly a mindset thing. You can do really cool things with plugins. You just have to be open to using them in ways you wouldn't use HW.
As for the Mike Brauer mix, it's not my favorite thing he's worked on, but I don't think it sounds horrendous or anything. A little crunchier than I would have liked and the vocals are a little edgy for my taste, but I've heard far worse. I think he did a pretty good job considering he didn't have a full multitrack to work with.
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Post by christopher on Dec 30, 2020 12:09:12 GMT -6
Here’s a really cool video from this year I enjoyed watching. It’s pretty cool to see a huge proponent of plugins still using some old tools and explaining why
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Post by Guitar on Dec 30, 2020 12:14:18 GMT -6
christopher I was just thinking about that last night. My "life's work" might sell for 5 bucks or something now, maybe a handful of total sales. There was another thread about this, but "being an artist" by itself is not really the best way to make income in music right now, unless you are some kind of mechanical maniac with superhuman drive and endurance. At least for the 99% of people that aren't famous or almost famous. I bet a lot of people on RGO are selling gear, recording other people, making youtube videos, making custom music for placement, and so on. I wonder if there are any coders on here. I doubt that's an easy avenue either. It's gotten so blown up now. Just look at a website like Plugin Boutique. Look how many start up brands there are selling for hamburger money, or giving things away. Your plugins have to stand out just as much as someone's songs or albums have to stand out. EDIT: Yes, I have also noticed that every 1176 plugin sounds different. LA2A as well.
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Post by christopher on Dec 30, 2020 12:36:46 GMT -6
Yep.. a lot of the cheap/free plugins are equivalent to studio demo tape days.
From a business stand point, like music, you’d ideally need tens of thousands to invest in the engineering talent to make the product be as good as possible and universally an expected, or better than expected, experience.
Then like music, you need tens of thousands for the marketing.
Finally like music, you need to cover the delivery costs.. a little higher because of registration, support, etc. waaayyy cheaper than the physical CD/album days though
However... unlike music, the MSRP is multiple times over
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 30, 2020 16:08:18 GMT -6
Love a lot of stuff he did and massive respect for MB but honestly since he went off the 9k and more itb I haven't heard much Ive liked. watched his last couple most current itb Mix With the Masters episodes..I listend to the latest Zach Brown stuff he did and the latest Mellissa Etheridge.I tried hard to get it but I really disliked the way they sounded.
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