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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 21:29:14 GMT -6
Writing something that I have no love for sounds like a desk job to me. I get it, and this is just one example but take many musicians in Nashville for instance. Many of these guys are serious top notch musicians, and most of them spend a significant portion of their calendar playing on records that aren't unique, are frequently corny, don't have many redeeming qualities other than their marketability. They take the work cause they have to eat, but also because it gives them the opportunity to get paid to work on the few gems that come around every year that they can feel proud to have been a part of. That's the way I look at it.
Could the beatles have made their late amazingly creative records without recording 12 love songs in a row for their first record to appease fans, get signed and establish themselves?
I know I'm not bringing to light anything you don't already know, but it's worth pointing out that this is the reality of it. As you know, you take the good with the bad.
That’s really not a very good analogy, though. Just because you write a music mill song doesn’t mean it’s going to get spins. Unless you know the formula for that - and if you do, please share it...I’m not trying to be a smartass - but THAT is what this thread is about...how do I get people to listen to my music so I can get paid. These musicians in Nashville get paid $100/hour to play on that crappy stuff they don’t want to be on. There’s no middleman. It’s immediate...and they don’t have to wait until 69 Million people listen to it to get a payday. I’d write every shitty song in the world if I got paid like that. But the only place I get paid like that is in the CREATION of the music. The production, mixing and mastering.
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 29, 2020 21:46:53 GMT -6
I get it, and this is just one example but take many musicians in Nashville for instance. Many of these guys are serious top notch musicians, and most of them spend a significant portion of their calendar playing on records that aren't unique, are frequently corny, don't have many redeeming qualities other than their marketability. They take the work cause they have to eat, but also because it gives them the opportunity to get paid to work on the few gems that come around every year that they can feel proud to have been a part of. That's the way I look at it.
Could the beatles have made their late amazingly creative records without recording 12 love songs in a row for their first record to appease fans, get signed and establish themselves?
I know I'm not bringing to light anything you don't already know, but it's worth pointing out that this is the reality of it. As you know, you take the good with the bad.
That’s really not a very good analogy, though. Just because you write a music mill song doesn’t mean it’s going to get spins. Unless you know the formula for that - and if you do, please share it...I’m not trying to be a smartass - but THAT is what this thread is about...how do I get people to listen to my music so I can get paid. These musicians in Nashville get paid $100/hour to play on that crappy stuff they don’t want to be on. There’s no middleman. It’s immediate...and they don’t have to wait until 69 Million people listen to it to get a payday. I’d write every shitty song in the world if I got paid like that. But the only place I get paid like that is in the CREATION of the music. The production, mixing and mastering. (One of) The tough answer(s) to your question is one that you and many others in this thread expressed you don't want to entertain. It's opening up Spotify and looking at what is actually getting streamed within the boundaries of what you're capable of creating/being a part of. That's why I suggested starting there. Yes, the stream payout needs to be better, it does suck that it takes 3 months. However perhaps re-positioning your crosshairs a bit to what is being given a platform (while still enjoying your work) may bridge the gap between you being frustrated by how much you are earning and you being happy, faster than hoping for Spotify to raise their payouts anytime soon will.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 22:04:18 GMT -6
That’s really not a very good analogy, though. Just because you write a music mill song doesn’t mean it’s going to get spins. Unless you know the formula for that - and if you do, please share it...I’m not trying to be a smartass - but THAT is what this thread is about...how do I get people to listen to my music so I can get paid. These musicians in Nashville get paid $100/hour to play on that crappy stuff they don’t want to be on. There’s no middleman. It’s immediate...and they don’t have to wait until 69 Million people listen to it to get a payday. I’d write every shitty song in the world if I got paid like that. But the only place I get paid like that is in the CREATION of the music. The production, mixing and mastering. (One of) The tough answer(s) to your question is one that you and many others in this thread expressed you don't want to entertain. It's opening up Spotify and looking at what is actually getting streamed within the boundaries of what you're capable of creating/being a part of. That's why I suggested starting there. Yes, the stream payout needs to be better, it does suck that it takes 3 months. However perhaps re-positioning your crosshairs a bit to what is being given a platform (while still enjoying your work) may bridge the gap between you being frustrated by how much you are earning and you being happy, faster than hoping for Spotify to raise their payouts anytime soon will. So are you getting millions of streams this way? Can you link?
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 29, 2020 22:04:37 GMT -6
Yes its no guarantee it will get streams but It's the best strategy I currently have. And that's what were doing here right? Sharing strategies & ideas.
I'm certainly not counting on Spotify or some other multimedia conglomerate coming to my rescue anytime soon. But if you guys wanna send however many we are 50? Tweets to Spotify CEO demanding change, I'm with you.
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Post by Quint on Oct 29, 2020 22:06:30 GMT -6
That’s really not a very good analogy, though. Just because you write a music mill song doesn’t mean it’s going to get spins. Unless you know the formula for that - and if you do, please share it...I’m not trying to be a smartass - but THAT is what this thread is about...how do I get people to listen to my music so I can get paid. These musicians in Nashville get paid $100/hour to play on that crappy stuff they don’t want to be on. There’s no middleman. It’s immediate...and they don’t have to wait until 69 Million people listen to it to get a payday. I’d write every shitty song in the world if I got paid like that. But the only place I get paid like that is in the CREATION of the music. The production, mixing and mastering. (One of) The tough answer(s) to your question is one that you and many others in this thread expressed you don't want to entertain. It's opening up Spotify and looking at what is actually getting streamed within the boundaries of what you're capable of creating/being a part of. That's why I suggested starting there. Yes, the stream payout needs to be better, it does suck that it takes 3 months. However perhaps re-positioning your crosshairs a bit to what is being given a platform (while still enjoying your work) may bridge the gap between you being frustrated by how much you are earning and you being happy, faster than hoping for Spotify to raise their payouts anytime soon will. So the next Billie Eilish bluegrass mashup is the answer? I just can't get on board with the whole race to the bottom mentality, full stop.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 29, 2020 22:09:55 GMT -6
I made $.00007714 per impression. At that rate, it would be $5322.76 for 69 Million spins. Similar to having 2 points on the record, maybe, I think.....should definitely be more....
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Post by Quint on Oct 29, 2020 22:11:14 GMT -6
(One of) The tough answer(s) to your question is one that you and many others in this thread expressed you don't want to entertain. It's opening up Spotify and looking at what is actually getting streamed within the boundaries of what you're capable of creating/being a part of. That's why I suggested starting there. Yes, the stream payout needs to be better, it does suck that it takes 3 months. However perhaps re-positioning your crosshairs a bit to what is being given a platform (while still enjoying your work) may bridge the gap between you being frustrated by how much you are earning and you being happy, faster than hoping for Spotify to raise their payouts anytime soon will. So are you getting millions of streams this way? Can you link? And what are the actual "dollars in your pocket" based on this model? Honestly curious.
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 29, 2020 22:15:18 GMT -6
(One of) The tough answer(s) to your question is one that you and many others in this thread expressed you don't want to entertain. It's opening up Spotify and looking at what is actually getting streamed within the boundaries of what you're capable of creating/being a part of. That's why I suggested starting there. Yes, the stream payout needs to be better, it does suck that it takes 3 months. However perhaps re-positioning your crosshairs a bit to what is being given a platform (while still enjoying your work) may bridge the gap between you being frustrated by how much you are earning and you being happy, faster than hoping for Spotify to raise their payouts anytime soon will. So are you getting millions of streams this way? Can you link? I don't have millions, no.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Oct 29, 2020 22:45:53 GMT -6
This exactly. Just a reminder also that the Spotify guys made a bunch of cash as pirates first. "After selling Advertigo, Ek briefly became the CEO of μTorrent, working with μTorrent founder Ludvig Strigeus. This ended when μTorrent was sold to BitTorrent on December 7 of 2006. Strigeus would later join Ek as a Spotify developer.[7]" We have let thieves steal all the music, "go legit", and then set the terms for how they will pay the creators pennies, while selling it all back to the world for billions. It wasn't bad enough to give the world Abba and "melodic death metal"; this is just some salt in the wound. So disgusting. Btw - Spotify offered label IPO shares and I believe several of the big ones actually owned around 18% of the company at one point. So, when they were negotiating how they would pay out, they offered the labels 60% of the pie for the owner of the masters if they’d agree to split 10% for publishers and songwriters. So - these labels determined, negotiated and designed the payment system for streaming. We are talking the big four: Sony, Universal, BMG and Warner Bros. They all own most of the publishing in the world too - so they took a hit on the publishing side because they knew by owning the masters they would make 60% off the top. They negotiated payment to their songwriters they had signed to publishing deals IN BAD FAITH with a major conflict of interest. Songwriters have no say in whether thei material is distributed - only the owner of the master recording determines that - so the fact that the labels own the publishers that own the songwriters is a major conflict of interest. It’s criminal. Sony owns my earlier stuff. Label sold it as a block based on "what else do you have?". I'll play the lottery and if it hits, spend it on getting the $500 or so I might have made. The music business.
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 30, 2020 4:40:35 GMT -6
This is my last comment to the topic because my emotion goes south. I talked a lot to people from the GERMAN GEMA, and they know the situation very well. To make a living from streaming someone like wiz would need much more than 62 Million Streams.... This article sums it up pretty well.www.newstatesman.com/culture/music-theatre/2020/04/spotify-s-new-tip-jar-won-t-save-industry-it-asks-us-consider-music-sBut if the money was decent in one year you can be poor again out of a sudden and that's because of Pro Rata Pay Out:
In other words if Springsteen makes 10% of all streams he gets 10 percent out of the POT. There is no way someone like wiz can make a living by streams.
What's a realistic one man show (I love what I do, and I am not interested in the rest) Songwriter Scenario.
+ Using the Spotify Donation Button for Fans.
+ Making fundraising for your next Album
+ Try to get your songs into sync
+ Play gigs if there is no COVID-19
+ Play showcases for PR guys if they like a song they may, can do something for that song.
+ Be consistent with your marketing have a corporate design etc. In the end it's a one man business, but many musicians are extremely lazy at this. Your presentation needs to be perfect in this business.
(Big time guilty myself)
If you spread your business plan chances are great that you make more than ever before being signed on a small indie label.
One more time I advise to read this book. It's not written by pro writers so be prepared for some all the self praise. I was told by a Sony REP. that it sums up how fast the business is changing.
To me the point is a realistic business plan, with realistic goals.
Making 300K in the first year is highly unrealistic.
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Post by wiz on Oct 30, 2020 4:44:44 GMT -6
I have made my living from music for over 25 years full time and 10 part time before that. As a live musician mostly with session work a smaller part of that.
It’s always been the largest earner for me...live gigs
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 30, 2020 6:40:39 GMT -6
Yes its no guarantee it will get streams but It's the best strategy I currently have. And that's what were doing here right? Sharing strategies & ideas. I'm certainly not counting on Spotify or some other multimedia conglomerate coming to my rescue anytime soon. But if you guys wanna send however many we are 50? Tweets to Spotify CEO demanding change, I'm with you. Ha. Now you’re being a dick. Try 400,000 a month.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 30, 2020 6:44:34 GMT -6
I made $.00007714 per impression. At that rate, it would be $5322.76 for 69 Million spins. Similar to having 2 points on the record, maybe, I think.....should definitely be more.... Mechanicals for songwriters on sales of albums - that ASCAP and BMI fought 75 years to get is 9.1 cents per. So, $91,000 per million. Even with halfing with your publisher and co-writer, that was $20k. So, yeah. A little low. But the answer is apparently to write what the kids are listening to.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 30, 2020 6:45:35 GMT -6
So are you getting millions of streams this way? Can you link? And what are the actual "dollars in your pocket" based on this model? Honestly curious. Thousands when it should be in the tens of thousands. I can’t make a living on songwriting after having done so for 17 years.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 30, 2020 6:50:33 GMT -6
Similar to having 2 points on the record, maybe, I think.....should definitely be more.... Mechanicals for songwriters on sales of albums - that ASCAP and BMI fought 75 years to get is 9.1 cents per. So, $91,000 per million. Even with halfing with your publisher and co-writer, that was $20k. So, yeah. A little low. But the answer is apparently to write what the kids are listening to. I don’t want to be paid any more than I’m worth. If I write “old” music, then so be it. But I want to be paid a living wage for the “50” I do sell.
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Post by gwlee7 on Oct 30, 2020 7:17:20 GMT -6
I must be really fucking up. I am writing "old" music on purpose.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 30, 2020 7:33:09 GMT -6
It's really presumptuous to tell songwriters, people who have devoted their lives, that they "Don't want to entertain." The whole thing about writing corny pop songs to make money reads like some kind of cringe comedy skit, I can't take it seriously.
Of course musicians are influenced by other music, and the time that they are alive in. This is inevitable, deeply ingrained in the fabric of how music works.
Now, what were we talking about?
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Post by gwlee7 on Oct 30, 2020 7:48:18 GMT -6
It's really presumptuous to tell songwriters, people who have devoted their lives, that they "Don't want to entertain." The whole thing about writing corny pop songs to make money reads like some kind of cringe comedy skit, I can't take it seriously. Of course musicians are influenced by other music, and the time that they are alive in. This is inevitable, deeply ingrained in the fabric of how music works. Now, what were we talking about? Oh don’t get wrong, I will write a “corny” song on purpose especially the ones that I write for my kids at the school where I work. However, what I write as “craft” is intentionally 70s sounding because that’s what I like. Some recently said “that song sounds like Dickie Betts sat in with Neil Young and Crazy Horse”. I said, mission accomplished. 😂
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Post by Guitar on Oct 30, 2020 8:36:46 GMT -6
It's really presumptuous to tell songwriters, people who have devoted their lives, that they "Don't want to entertain." The whole thing about writing corny pop songs to make money reads like some kind of cringe comedy skit, I can't take it seriously. Of course musicians are influenced by other music, and the time that they are alive in. This is inevitable, deeply ingrained in the fabric of how music works. Now, what were we talking about? Oh don’t get wrong, I will write a “corny” song on purpose especially the ones that I write for my kids at the school where I work. However, what I write as “craft” is intentionally 70s sounding because that’s what I like. Some recently said “that song sounds like Dickie Betts sat in with Neil Young and Crazy Horse”. I said, mission accomplished. 😂 That has happened to me too. I played a song for an old friend and he wrote it off, "It sounds like Nirvana." I was like, is that supposed to be an insult? I love Nirvana. Someone else once insulted me by saying I was "Trying to write beautiful music." Kind of made me laugh. I guess there's no accounting for taste. There's a lid for every pot.
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 30, 2020 9:09:37 GMT -6
It's really presumptuous to tell songwriters, people who have devoted their lives, that they "Don't want to entertain." The whole thing about writing corny pop songs to make money reads like some kind of cringe comedy skit, I can't take it seriously. Of course musicians are influenced by other music, and the time that they are alive in. This is inevitable, deeply ingrained in the fabric of how music works. Now, what were we talking about? Apparently everything that is being streamed or is on a playlist on Spotify is corny pop or music of no intrinsic value. Never have I once said or suggested that to anyone in this thread, you keep creating that idea yourself and telling the world and yourself that I’m telling you to write bad music. Letting what’s being playlisted influence your direction to some degree won’t by default require you to write corny music. There is great music on playlists and in the spotlight as I pointed out: Tame Impala, Redbone by Childish Gambino has 800 mill streams. Nobody once told you or suggested to you to go and write shitty music.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 30, 2020 9:59:48 GMT -6
OK I guess I will just say I can't disagree with that, and let the thread move on. We all have different ideas of what's "Good" and I don't think naming specific artists is really something everyone will agree on, but I get the general point. I like the idea of having a fresh exciting sound, that would be hard to argue with. I do like some music that might end up on a playlist, if not those specific artists.
One big thing sort of seems to be very simple, like, "Use synthesizers." Or sound design. That's something that has helped me in the past decade. Coming from a guitar-heavy start in music. Guitar music has changed a lot too in recent years. I am all for the idea of keeping your ears open and getting excited about new things. Or old things, that are new again.
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 30, 2020 10:21:21 GMT -6
OK I guess I will just say I can't disagree with that, and let the thread move on. We all have different ideas of what's "Good" and I don't think naming specific artists is really something everyone will agree on, but I get the general point. I like the idea of having a fresh exciting sound, that would be hard to argue with. I do like some music that might end up on a playlist, if not those specific artists. One big thing sort of seems to be very simple, like, "Use synthesizers." Or sound design. That's something that has helped me in the past decade. Coming from a guitar-heavy start in music. Guitar music has changed a lot too in recent years. I am all for the idea of keeping your ears open and getting excited about new things. Or old things, that are new again. Agreed. I love synths, and came from a guitar focused place thinking they were never for me. Yet they’ve inspired some of my best songs and now I could never part with their place in my music, and with their inclusion I feel my music has more commercial potential to some degree. All positives. Often times letting your guard down really opens new doors in songwriting in my experience
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Post by EmRR on Oct 30, 2020 10:23:33 GMT -6
I played a song for an old friend and he wrote it off, "It sounds like Nirvana." I was like, is that supposed to be an insult? I love Nirvana. Someone else once insulted me by saying I was "Trying to write beautiful music." Kind of made me laugh. I guess there's no accounting for taste. There's a lid for every pot. I knew I'd made it when a band told me my recording sounded 'too good', and they moved on to a lesser studio....
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Post by drbill on Oct 30, 2020 10:30:21 GMT -6
Every man makes their own choices. - If you want to be an iconoclastic artist without boundaries or rules - fantastic. Prepare to have a trust fund, hard working wife, or a day job. - If you want to write disposable pop with no artistic integrity for the money - fantastic. Prepare to be swept around with the tides and whims of popular opinion. - If you want to split the difference - great - good luck. It's incredibly hard to pull off, although simple in concept. There are no rights, no wrongs. But which you choose impacts your "place and earnings" in the "industry". Yes. It's a given that streaming pays too little. It's also a given that ANYONE can start to grab a piece of that pie - which was not the case 30 years ago. If you haven't had to re-invent yourself you either haven't been in the industry very long, have been extremely lucky, or aren't paying attention. I think there are HUGE answers buried all along in this thread. For sure there are some things that I'm going to pluck out and put into play. I'm already getting millions of streams a year, and I didn't even put up my own stuff, promote it or agree to it. They have been put up by others - publishers, etc.. I'm currently getting just a few hundred a year. But not for long. I'm hoping 2021 is the year that I can take time to put some things into motion. A few bullet points of what you HAVE to do (IMO) as a smaller artist to make any money long term.... • Be the artist • Own the master (be the record company) • Own the publishing • Be the writer • Be incredibly talented, swim with the tide, but still be different enough to stand out (side note : donr - I'd be willing to bet that the new BOC record nails every single one of these categories) Everyone thinks that just because the entry point for being an "artist" is so low that everyone deserves to be an artist. IMO that's not true. Few deserve it. It's just as hard as it always was, but the "rules" are completely upside down now. You've got to figure out new game plans. Everyone here that is trying to recreate 1990, 2000 or 2010 is going to have a hard road.
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Post by gwlee7 on Oct 30, 2020 10:38:55 GMT -6
A few bullet points of what you HAVE to do (IMO) as a smaller artist to make any money long term.... • Be the artist • Own the master (be the record company) • Own the publishing • Be the writer • Be incredibly talented, swim with the tide, but still be different enough to stand out Hopefully this where my two writing partners and I will land. I told them that we have to be our own publisher to stand a chance of getting anything other than "satisfaction".
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