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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 23, 2021 18:02:02 GMT -6
For the past 4 years, I have been slowly selecting and acquiring the right mics + hardware preamps, 20-some channels of hardware compressors, and 29 channels of hardware EQs, including 48 channels of hardware summing (Rupert Neve 5059 + Heritage Audio MCM-32). This thread is reminding me of that time I accidentally turned the wrong way on a One Way street. 🤔 (“Hey, why’s everyone going the other direction?” 🤣) Yeah, I love a great plugin and what ITB gives us. But it is a bit weird that this thread even exists on a site called “Real Gear.” Dude, I’m right there with you. I’ve built up a nice HW collection of choice pieces over the years. Here I am, obsessing over whether or not I should sell it all, put the $ in the stock market and get an X6. Is this my mid-life crises? It's got to be all about what works best for you at any given time. wiz even said this works well for him now because he's not working with outside recording clients anymore. If he were, he would probably have kept some of that hardware (especially the drums, and probably the board). |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 23, 2021 19:51:55 GMT -6
I think there's a middle ground. Unless you hit the lottery or are a major league producer with A last clients, I doubt you really need to have a Neve, API or SSL console. Still, I've almost always preferred analogue when I hear ITB vs. Analogue shootouts.
If I was starting over and had a good budget, I'd get good monitors like the small ATC's. I'd be sure to have a serious but limited mic collection, a couple of great preamps or a Silver Bullet, one or two good compressors and then something with high end conversion, like the Dangerous Music 2 Bus +. To me, that thing gets you 30% -50% of what an analogue board can.
Add a few choice plug-ins and you should be good to go, unless you're tracking bands live.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 23, 2021 20:58:48 GMT -6
For the past 4 years, I have been slowly selecting and acquiring the right mics + hardware preamps, 20-some channels of hardware compressors, and 29 channels of hardware EQs, including 48 channels of hardware summing (Rupert Neve 5059 + Heritage Audio MCM-32). This thread is reminding me of that time I accidentally turned the wrong way on a One Way street. 🤔 (“Hey, why’s everyone going the other direction?” 🤣) Dude, I’m right there with you. I’ve built up a nice HW collection of choice pieces over the years. Here I am, obsessing over whether or not I should sell it all, put the $ in the stock market and get an X6. Is this my mid-life crises? Crisis aside and not being snarky at all, but are you getting the sounds you want from your setup? Easier paths for sure but to me that's the sweet spot to go for. If it's right, it's right kinda thing. |
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 24, 2021 8:29:18 GMT -6
Dude, I’m right there with you. I’ve built up a nice HW collection of choice pieces over the years. Here I am, obsessing over whether or not I should sell it all, put the $ in the stock market and get an X6. Is this my mid-life crises? Crisis aside and not being snarky at all, but are you getting the sounds you want from your setup? Easier paths for sure but to me that's the sweet spot to go for. If it's right, it's right kinda thing.
For me lately it's all about being creative. The point for me is exactly what you say: Do I get the sound which I have in my head.
If yes I do not care if it's done OTB or ITB. With the new plug ins I am very sure I can't hear the difference anymore. They are too good not to be used.
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Post by drbill on Mar 24, 2021 10:08:33 GMT -6
For the past 4 years, I have been slowly selecting and acquiring the right mics + hardware preamps, 20-some channels of hardware compressors, and 29 channels of hardware EQs, including 48 channels of hardware summing (Rupert Neve 5059 + Heritage Audio MCM-32). This thread is reminding me of that time I accidentally turned the wrong way on a One Way street. 🤔 (“Hey, why’s everyone going the other direction?” 🤣) Do not be fearful Chad. You're not alone!!!  |
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Post by Guitar on Mar 24, 2021 11:41:02 GMT -6
Remember that movie Braveheart? We need to have a big sword battle of the ITB'ers vs the hardware people in a big field somewhere.
The funny part is it doesn't matter what you use, as long as you're getting your sound, but people still seem to care what other people are doing.
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Post by ragan on Mar 24, 2021 12:09:26 GMT -6
I don't wanna sound glib but...ya'll are making decisions based on your own trials and testing and experimentation right? I can't conceive of having a thread about someone else's gear decisions somehow gain enough weight to make me question the conclusions I've drawn about my own studio, conclusions based on a ton of experimentation and trials that I've carried out myself.
I assume you guys are all doing more or less the same stuff I do when auditioning things and making decisions around setup and workflow?
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Post by Chad on Mar 24, 2021 12:49:19 GMT -6
I don't wanna sound glib but...ya'll are making decisions based on your own trials and testing and experimentation right? I can't conceive of having a thread about someone else's gear decisions somehow gain enough weight to make me question the conclusions I've drawn about my own studio, conclusions based on a ton of experimentation and trials that I've carried out myself. I assume you guys are all doing more or less the same stuff I do when auditioning things and making decisions around setup and workflow? Yes. Exactly. I burned myself out on terrible mixes and masters while 100% in the box. Took a decade off completely. Decided in 2017 to go about it from a hardware angle. So far in tests... I’m super happy. No one can convince me to sell my room full of gear (except my wife haha). |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 24, 2021 12:53:00 GMT -6
Hearing of other people's journey helps me navigate my own. Knowing some of the guys here and knowing some of their music, it helps me set my own sights. Of course you have to check things out for yourself, but it can help if you're being pointed in the right direction. Occasionally a great tip comes along and really helps me improve a mix or a purchase decision.
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Post by drbill on Mar 24, 2021 13:16:44 GMT -6
I don't wanna sound glib but...ya'll are making decisions based on your own trials and testing and experimentation right? I can't conceive of having a thread about someone else's gear decisions somehow gain enough weight to make me question the conclusions I've drawn about my own studio, conclusions based on a ton of experimentation and trials that I've carried out myself. I assume you guys are all doing more or less the same stuff I do when auditioning things and making decisions around setup and workflow? Yes. Exactly. I burned myself out on terrible mixes and masters while 100% in the box. Took a decade off completely. Decided in 2017 to go about it from a hardware angle. So far in tests... I’m super happy. No one can convince me to sell my room full of gear (except my wife haha).
Haha - well there is that, eh Chad. to ragan - of course. Listening, back and forth, on our own monitors in our own spaces. It's really the only way to tell for sure what works right for us/you. Youtube comparisons? I guess that's what some people do. I find that those an indicator perhaps, but certainly no replacement for listening in your own room, with your own monitoring, on your own mixes. <<thumbsup>> |
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Post by ragan on Mar 24, 2021 14:19:51 GMT -6
Hearing of other people's journey helps me navigate my own. Knowing some of the guys here and knowing some of their music, it helps me set my own sights. Of course you have to check things out for yourself, but it can help if you're being pointed in the right direction. Occasionally a great tip comes along and really helps me improve a mix or a purchase decision. Good point, Martin. I didn’t mean to imply that hearing about other people’s studio journeys/choices isn’t helpful, because it definitely is for me as well. |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 24, 2021 14:40:56 GMT -6
LBD (e): learn by doing or experiencing ! |
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Post by wiz on Mar 24, 2021 18:06:16 GMT -6
Here is a tune I just now finished up. It will be the first release of the new album, which is all done bar the shouting..... Its been really nice working on this tune... and being able to change things as I go, eg change the snare out in SD3, tweak the lead guitar sound (UAD). Because I am just working on my own stuff....that flexibility is wonderful.... cheers Wiz www.dropbox.com/s/foefhg2aih3ltal/There%20Is%20A%20Way.wav?dl=0 |
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Post by Jason on Mar 24, 2021 18:38:19 GMT -6
Here is a tune I just now finished up. It will be the first release of the new album, which is all done bar the shouting..... Its been really nice working on this tune... and being able to change things as I go, eg change the snare out in SD3, tweak the lead guitar sound (UAD). Because I am just working on my own stuff....that flexibility is wonderful.... cheers Wiz www.dropbox.com/s/foefhg2aih3ltal/There%20Is%20A%20Way.wav?dl=0Sounds great, Peter! Question (sorry if I missed it): When you originally record your vox and acc gtr together to create your tempo map, do you keep those tracks, or do you overdub final acoustic guitar and lead vocal tracks after you’ve played drums, bass, etc. to the tempo map tracks? If this isn’t making sense, let me ask it this way: are the vox and acc gtr tracks you create to generate your time map scratch tracks? |
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Post by wiz on Mar 24, 2021 18:47:01 GMT -6
Here is a tune I just now finished up. It will be the first release of the new album, which is all done bar the shouting..... Its been really nice working on this tune... and being able to change things as I go, eg change the snare out in SD3, tweak the lead guitar sound (UAD). Because I am just working on my own stuff....that flexibility is wonderful.... cheers Wiz www.dropbox.com/s/foefhg2aih3ltal/There%20Is%20A%20Way.wav?dl=0Sounds great, Peter! Question (sorry if I missed it): When you originally record your vox and acc gtr together to create your tempo map, do you keep those tracks, or do you overdub final acoustic guitar and lead vocal tracks after you’ve played drums, bass, etc. to the tempo map tracks? If this isn’t making sense, let me ask it this way: are the vox and acc gtr tracks you create to generate your time map scratch tracks? Hi Jason thanks for checking it out. The tracks are meant as keepers... and 90% of the time they are. Sometimes, either the acoustic guitar or vocal, might get re recorded... because of the bleed of one into the other, then I use Izotope Music Rebalance, to remove the vocal beed from the acoustic, or acoustic bleed from the vocal.... works really well. This song was done at a fixed tempo... I played the acoustic guitar and vocal live, against a skratch drum track. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by Jason on Mar 24, 2021 18:56:47 GMT -6
Sounds great, Peter! Question (sorry if I missed it): When you originally record your vox and acc gtr together to create your tempo map, do you keep those tracks, or do you overdub final acoustic guitar and lead vocal tracks after you’ve played drums, bass, etc. to the tempo map tracks? If this isn’t making sense, let me ask it this way: are the vox and acc gtr tracks you create to generate your time map scratch tracks? Hi Jason thanks for checking it out. The tracks are meant as keepers... and 90% of the time they are. Sometimes, either the acoustic guitar or vocal, might get re recorded... because of the bleed of one into the other, then I use Izotope Music Rebalance, to remove the vocal beed from the acoustic, or acoustic bleed from the vocal.... works really well. This song was done at a fixed tempo... I played the acoustic guitar and vocal live, against a skratch drum track. Cheers Wiz Got it, but now another question. So for this track, you played vox and acc gtr to a scratch drum track, the vox and acc gtr tracks were keepers, but you used them to create a tempo map for the tune, then replayed and replaced drums, and then overdubbed the remaining instrumentation? |
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Post by wiz on Mar 24, 2021 19:55:55 GMT -6
Hi Jason thanks for checking it out. The tracks are meant as keepers... and 90% of the time they are. Sometimes, either the acoustic guitar or vocal, might get re recorded... because of the bleed of one into the other, then I use Izotope Music Rebalance, to remove the vocal beed from the acoustic, or acoustic bleed from the vocal.... works really well. This song was done at a fixed tempo... I played the acoustic guitar and vocal live, against a skratch drum track. Cheers Wiz Got it, but now another question. So for this track, you played vox and acc gtr to a scratch drum track, the vox and acc gtr tracks were keepers, but you used them to create a tempo map for the tune, then replayed and replaced drums, and then overdubbed the remaining instrumentation? As the guitar and vocal were cut against fixed tempo there was no need to create a tempo mao in this case |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 24, 2021 20:52:01 GMT -6
Crisis aside and not being snarky at all, but are you getting the sounds you want from your setup? Easier paths for sure but to me that's the sweet spot to go for. If it's right, it's right kinda thing.
For me lately it's all about being creative. The point for me is exactly what you say: Do I get the sound which I have in my head.
If yes I do not care if it's done OTB or ITB. With the new plug ins I am very sure I can't hear the difference anymore. They are too good not to be used.
Great! If you're getting it and it's translating to people or whatever, that's all that matters. How you get there is irrelevant at that point. |
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Post by Jason on Mar 24, 2021 21:12:31 GMT -6
For me lately it's all about being creative. The point for me is exactly what you say: Do I get the sound which I have in my head.
If yes I do not care if it's done OTB or ITB. With the new plug ins I am very sure I can't hear the difference anymore. They are too good not to be used.
Great! If you're getting it and it's translating to people or whatever, that's all that matters. How you get there is irrelevant at that point. Just for the record, not disputing that whatsoever, was sincerely a “how did you do that” question... |
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 25, 2021 6:45:58 GMT -6
For me lately it's all about being creative. The point for me is exactly what you say: Do I get the sound which I have in my head.
If yes I do not care if it's done OTB or ITB. With the new plug ins I am very sure I can't hear the difference anymore. They are too good not to be used.
Great! If you're getting it and it's translating to people or whatever, that's all that matters. How you get there is irrelevant at that point.
I just can speak for myself. The whole ITB OTB thing was a big distraction for me. If the only gear I own would be an SM58 and a two track recorder + my dreadnought.... I would be creative with this. I need to be creative.
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Post by stratboy on Mar 25, 2021 8:15:13 GMT -6
I don't wanna sound glib but...ya'll are making decisions based on your own trials and testing and experimentation right? I can't conceive of having a thread about someone else's gear decisions somehow gain enough weight to make me question the conclusions I've drawn about my own studio, conclusions based on a ton of experimentation and trials that I've carried out myself. I assume you guys are all doing more or less the same stuff I do when auditioning things and making decisions around setup and workflow? When I posted early in this thread, I had already decided to drastically cut my hardware investment, driven by moving to a new town/smaller place. When I saw Wiz’s thread, I felt great that someone I respect was headed in the same direction, albeit for different reasons. And his workflow, acoustic performance, then using Logic tempo map, was a revelation that I’ve adopted for my own. I did all my research before I made my moves, and sometimes, coincidentally, the universe confirms we are moving in a good direction, then as a bonus provides the answer to a question you’ve been asking (how do I quickly transition from writing a song to making a polished recording?) The tempo map workflow is great for that. |
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Post by howie on Mar 25, 2021 14:53:35 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing all this detail. Inspiring! On the Logic Temp thing... I've been curious about that. I, too, recently experienced the freedom of getting a great vox/guitar setup and just... playing. Problem is that it's a ton of work to get drums to fit in after the fact. I like playing acoustic drums, I wonder how well it would work to play live and free, temp map, then set up a Logic drummer, play along with that, and then remove the Logic drummer and edit the acoustic drums as needed. Sounds like a lot but really it would be just a way to get a "flex-y" click track. Great post! Easy to do I'm a Logic User recording various instruments some through pedals - some through mics - I find Smart Tempo tricky. - If I play free style in 'Adapt Mode', Smart Tempo will create a tempo map - which I follow at varying degrees of tightness - sometimes Logic Drummer will follow nicely - sometimes it won't - Some instruments seem to map better than others - Logic lets you 're-analyze the track that sometimes works - and sometimes does not - it makes it worse. Logic will lets you manually re-set the down beat of a track - All that does in my confused hand is screw up the beat even more - every time- makes it worse - I have watched videos on Smart Tempo - to no avail! Smart Tempo will also - sometimes/often shift your track forward to attempt to synch down beat with a Drummer Track? - or for whatever reason it does that - rarely works out well - I usually end up keeping Smart Tempo in the 'on' setting for some tracks - off for others in the same recording when it comes to 'natural loosness' & There is also 'Flex-time' (The pre Smart Tempo function still available) sometimes I use that also - sometimes - instead of Smart Tempo. I wish it was all simpler. Back to my cave.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 25, 2021 16:20:44 GMT -6
I'm a Logic User recording various instruments some through pedals - some through mics - I find Smart Tempo tricky. - If I play free style in 'Adapt Mode', Smart Tempo will create a tempo map - which I follow at varying degrees of tightness - sometimes Logic Drummer will follow nicely - sometimes it won't - Some instruments seem to map better than others - Logic lets you 're-analyze the track that sometimes works - and sometimes does not - it makes it worse. Logic will lets you manually re-set the down beat of a track - All that does in my confused hand is screw up the beat even more - every time- makes it worse - I have watched videos on Smart Tempo - to no avail! Smart Tempo will also - sometimes/often shift your track forward to attempt to synch down beat with a Drummer Track? - or for whatever reason it does that - rarely works out well - I usually end up keeping Smart Tempo in the 'on' setting for some tracks - off for others in the same recording when it comes to 'natural loosness' & There is also 'Flex-time' (The pre Smart Tempo function still available) sometimes I use that also - sometimes - instead of Smart Tempo. I wish it was all simpler. Back to my cave.
Howie, what's your Tempo Resolution setting at: Project Settings > Smart Tempo > Options > Export Tempo Resolution (Beats or Smoothed) ? IIRC, things worked a lot better for wiz when he switched to Beats, but I think it's on "Smoothed" by default, if I'm not mistaken. |
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Post by howie on Mar 25, 2021 16:43:39 GMT -6
Smoothed is the default, yes - I'll try 'Beats' Thanks.
"But - If it's not one thing it's another" Howie Rosanna-Rosanna-Danna... Yesterday I laid down a 'lovely' bass line on a project(with dueling banjos no less) When I checked it in mono with the Logic Multi-Meter the bass disappeared - unless I panned it totally left or right - never happened before with the same set up. I took a gain plugin and reversed the polarity of the bass and it re-appeared when not panned.
Photography was child's play compared to this audio stuff.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 25, 2021 19:14:43 GMT -6
I just can speak for myself. The whole ITB OTB thing was a big distraction for me. If the only gear I own would be an SM58 and a two track recorder + my dreadnought.... I would be creative with this. I need to be creative. Then I would say you've got it figured out. My buddy and I took my Tascam PortaOne, TR-707, my Quadraverb II and a Cosmopolitan magazine laying around the house in '94 while I was in between temp jobs and created "Readings From October 1994 Cosmopolitan". One of my favorite things I've been a part of creating to this day. I even went to the trouble of sending a letter to Cosmo to attempt to get a release for using the words from the magazine. The chorus in between reading verses was a combo sample of Foreigner's "Urgent" 4-bar opening chords and Morrissey's "November Spawned a Monster" growling opening on the tail end. I truly hope those reading this that are familiar with those two songs can imagine it. It was awesome. Used the Quadraverb II to play that back by pressing the button during the chorus/break 16-bar parts. I digress, but totally agree with the space you're describing! |
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