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Post by gwlee7 on Aug 22, 2020 7:07:32 GMT -6
I will second the sE VR1 as exceptional for the price. This is me using two of them about 3 feet away singing and playing a song about moving to TX when my wife got a promotion. I like them a lot. I also have a more expensive KSM313 that is better but it’s also 3 times the price. drive.google.com/file/d/1qlS4vqyb199u0nFPTYrzMxrk_vvZw07J/view?usp=drivesdkEdited to add that this is straight into my apollo twin that I was using at the time with no other processing They sound even better using my Daking pres.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 22, 2020 7:21:02 GMT -6
I will second the sE VR1 as exceptional for the price. This is me using two of them about 3 feet away singing and playing a song about moving to TX when my wife got a promotion. I like them a lot. I also have a more expensive KSM313 that is better but it’s also 3 times the price. drive.google.com/file/d/1qlS4vqyb199u0nFPTYrzMxrk_vvZw07J/view?usp=drivesdkEdited to add that this is straight into my apollo twin that I was using at the time with no other processing They sound even better using my Daking pres. Nice! That's a really beautiful song, and the mics sound just fine.
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Post by svart on Aug 22, 2020 9:01:02 GMT -6
Seriously check out the bumblebee videos. They'll be enough to convince you to forget about the rest.
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 22, 2020 9:41:30 GMT -6
For those of you that have used the Fathead, how does that compare to some of these suggestions such as the Bumblebee? I ask because I could also possibly just get another Fathead or two. I’ve never used the bumblebee but I had a pair of fatheads, have used other fatheads in studios (with and without the Lundahl) and have used a fair amount of other ribbons (stager, AEA n22, Coles etc). IME the fatheads weren’t very consistent in sound from one mic to the next. Maybe it’s the build quality or maybe there was something wrong with my pair (I got them used), but some sounded way better than others. If I was ever to buy a pair again I’d get them with Lundahl’s. Wouldn’t even consider it otherwise. As compared to some other ribbons, like my AEA n22’s, is day the fatheads have a very specific sound that either works in your source or doesn’t. Kind of a one trick pony ime, but YMMV.
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Post by Quint on Aug 22, 2020 10:44:48 GMT -6
Seriously check out the bumblebee videos. They'll be enough to convince you to forget about the rest. I have listened to the videos. At first I was thinking I might prefer the RM-5, but now, after watching the videos, I think I might prefer the RM-6, since I do also want to be able to use these for room mics as well. Do you have a preference for one or the other? How about ribbon size? 1.2, 1.8, 2.5?
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Post by svart on Aug 22, 2020 12:05:09 GMT -6
Seriously check out the bumblebee videos. They'll be enough to convince you to forget about the rest. I have listened to the videos. At first I was thinking I might prefer the RM-5, but now, after watching the videos, I think I might prefer the RM-6, since I do also want to be able to use these for room mics as well. Do you have a preference for one or the other? How about ribbon size? 1.2, 1.8, 2.5? I have the rm6 and the rm7(active). The rm6 comes stock with the 1.8u ribbon, and the rm7 comes with 1.2u. Both are the short ribbon style. I like the rm7 a little better, mainly because it's a bit louder since it's actively amplified. I like shorter ribbons overall since long ribbons can get really boomy sounding unless you tension them really tight, then they start sounding strange to me. The short ribbon gets much better translation overall, IMHO.
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Post by Quint on Aug 22, 2020 14:16:46 GMT -6
I have listened to the videos. At first I was thinking I might prefer the RM-5, but now, after watching the videos, I think I might prefer the RM-6, since I do also want to be able to use these for room mics as well. Do you have a preference for one or the other? How about ribbon size? 1.2, 1.8, 2.5? I have the rm6 and the rm7(active). The rm6 comes stock with the 1.8u ribbon, and the rm7 comes with 1.2u. Both are the short ribbon style. I like the rm7 a little better, mainly because it's a bit louder since it's actively amplified. I like shorter ribbons overall since long ribbons can get really boomy sounding unless you tension them really tight, then they start sounding strange to me. The short ribbon gets much better translation overall, IMHO. I think you guys are selling me on the idea of getting a pair of the RM-6. The price is right and they seem to sound pretty good. What ribbon mics out there would you say the RM-6 sounds like? Royer 121?
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Post by Quint on Aug 22, 2020 15:00:40 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Aug 22, 2020 15:05:42 GMT -6
I have the rm6 and the rm7(active). The rm6 comes stock with the 1.8u ribbon, and the rm7 comes with 1.2u. Both are the short ribbon style. I like the rm7 a little better, mainly because it's a bit louder since it's actively amplified. I like shorter ribbons overall since long ribbons can get really boomy sounding unless you tension them really tight, then they start sounding strange to me. The short ribbon gets much better translation overall, IMHO. I think you guys are selling me on the idea of getting a pair of the RM-6. The price is right and they seem to sound pretty good. What ribbon mics out there would you say the RM-6 sounds like? Royer 121? I have a R121 as well and I don't think they sound the same at all. The R121 is very mid-centric while both of the RM mics are more flat sounding. The R121 makes a great heavy guitar mic because it accentuates those mid frequencies, and I believe it uses a heavier ribbon too, but I'm not sure. I use the RM6 for lighter guitars and the RM7 for my room mic with drums.
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Post by drbill on Aug 22, 2020 15:08:44 GMT -6
I listened to the A/B comparison video and both 5 and 6 sound good. But to me, the 5 sounded more ribbon like. More in the vein of what I want out of a ribbon. If I want a condenser sound, I'll generally use a condenser. That said, they were both good.
For me, I like longer ribbons unless they are to be used on amps. Then, I like the shorter ribbons. That's a very generalized comment, but one that seems to hold up for me. My modded 205's (long) can hold their own with any modern (ie non RCA or 1940's style ribbon) ribbon. Until you get to amps, then, 121 or Fathead or ?? for me.
RCA's seem to be the exception. Nothing can do what they do. At least I've never found anything that can. They are luscious and their own unique beast. I pull them out when I want to take a trip in a time machine....
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Post by drbill on Aug 22, 2020 15:16:09 GMT -6
That's a pretty compelling recording. Especially as it seems to be done in an incredibly small box of a room with parallel walls, and such. Wonder if they lip sync'd it. Mic's reach and immediacy seems very excellent. A well done recording for 2 mics and simultaneous performance. Ahh...went back and re-read the description - it was a lip sync. But it was still recorded in one pass. Makes sense to me as the sync was a little off sometimes, and the blend with the musicians as seated in the video is a little suspect. and the thing that really freaks me out is how much the shaker player looks like a young tom petty. Haha! Buy the 5's!
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Post by Quint on Aug 22, 2020 15:49:58 GMT -6
I think you guys are selling me on the idea of getting a pair of the RM-6. The price is right and they seem to sound pretty good. What ribbon mics out there would you say the RM-6 sounds like? Royer 121? I have a R121 as well and I don't think they sound the same at all. The R121 is very mid-centric while both of the RM mics are more flat sounding. The R121 makes a great heavy guitar mic because it accentuates those mid frequencies, and I believe it uses a heavier ribbon too, but I'm not sure. I use the RM6 for lighter guitars and the RM7 for my room mic with drums. And I already have a Fathead for that mid centric push on amps, if I want that. I'm thinking about these Bumblebees more for dedicated room mic duties now. For those that have used the Stager SR-2n and the Bumblebee RM-5/RM-6, how do these compare? I'm still wanting to get a pair of Stagers, but these Bumblebees seem pretty cool.
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Post by Quint on Aug 22, 2020 15:54:13 GMT -6
That's a pretty compelling recording. Especially as it seems to be done in an incredibly small box of a room with parallel walls, and such. Wonder if they lip sync'd it. Mic's reach and immediacy seems very excellent. A well done recording for 2 mics and simultaneous performance. Ahh...went back and re-read the description - it was a lip sync. But it was still recorded in one pass. Makes sense to me as the sync was a little off sometimes, and the blend with the musicians as seated in the video is a little suspect. and the thing that really freaks me out is how much the shaker player looks like a young tom petty. Haha! Buy the 5's! Yeah, the small room is part of what impressed me. Using a pair of these for stereo room mics could be really cool. I'm split on the RM-5 versus RM-6. I guess it might come down to the question of which I would rather have in tandem with a pair of Stager SR-2n. Which would work better or cover more ground in tandem with the Stagers? The RM-5 or RM-6? I'd probably be using the Bumblebees for stereo rooms and the Stagers for drum OHs or guitar amps, drum OHs being the primary use for the Stagers (when I don't want condensors for OHs).
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Post by drbill on Aug 22, 2020 17:52:52 GMT -6
Personally, for me, that's a no brainer. I don't like bright room mics. So....5.
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Post by topshelfmg on Aug 22, 2020 18:52:58 GMT -6
I can 3,000% recommend the Stagers. I have the SR-3 myself, and I love it on tons of applications. I have also regularly worked with (but do not yet personally own) their SR-2N, which is the one smack dab in your mentioned price range. The 2N is one of my favorite ribbon mics to act as a pseudo sub mic on a kick drum, as well as on electric guitars or drum rooms (plus drum crotch mic). I have not gotten a chance to record vocals with the SR-2N for any real amount of time so far though. I have recorded a ton of vocals with the SR-3 and SR-1A, and the SR-2N uses the same magnets as the 3 and same transformer as the 1A. So I can only assume it would work great there as well when you wanted really smooth, dark-ish vocals that still have solid clarity. Or doubled with a condenser while recording vocals.
The SR-3 I particularly enjoy on vocals since it has just the tiniest bit of extra air, transient response, and overall definition, but not enough so to put it even close to the brighter, tighter condenser-like qualities of my AEA N22 (another great mic you could probably find priced in your range on Reverb or something).
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Post by Quint on Aug 22, 2020 18:53:55 GMT -6
Personally, for me, that's a no brainer. I don't like bright room mics. So....5. I tend to agree. Also, I already have brighter options for room mics when I want that. I think I'm starting to lean more heavily towards the RM-5 now, the added benefit being that they are also cheaper. I can pick up a pair for $500.
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Post by Quint on Aug 22, 2020 18:56:32 GMT -6
I can 3,000% recommend the Stagers. I have the SR-3 myself, and I love it on tons of applications. I have also regularly worked with (but do not yet personally own) their SR-2N, which is the one smack dab in your mentioned price range. The 2N is one of my favorite ribbon mics to act as a pseudo sub mic on a kick drum, as well as on electric guitars or drum rooms (plus drum crotch mic). I have not gotten a chance to record vocals with the SR-2N for any real amount of time so far though. I have recorded a ton of vocals with the SR-3 and SR-1A, and the SR-2N uses the same magnets as the 3 and same transformer as the 1A. So I can only assume it would work great there as well when you wanted really smooth, dark-ish vocals that still have solid clarity. Or doubled with a condenser while recording vocals. The SR-3 I particularly enjoy on vocals since it has just the tiniest bit of extra air, transient response, and overall definition, but not enough so to put it even close to the brighter, tighter condenser-like qualities of my AEA N22 (another great mic you could probably find priced in your range on Reverb or something). The Stagers are still happening. This thread is more so about finding a second pair of ribbons in addition to the Stagers.
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Post by topshelfmg on Aug 22, 2020 19:08:55 GMT -6
I can 3,000% recommend the Stagers. I have the SR-3 myself, and I love it on tons of applications. I have also regularly worked with (but do not yet personally own) their SR-2N, which is the one smack dab in your mentioned price range. The 2N is one of my favorite ribbon mics to act as a pseudo sub mic on a kick drum, as well as on electric guitars or drum rooms (plus drum crotch mic). I have not gotten a chance to record vocals with the SR-2N for any real amount of time so far though. I have recorded a ton of vocals with the SR-3 and SR-1A, and the SR-2N uses the same magnets as the 3 and same transformer as the 1A. So I can only assume it would work great there as well when you wanted really smooth, dark-ish vocals that still have solid clarity. Or doubled with a condenser while recording vocals. The SR-3 I particularly enjoy on vocals since it has just the tiniest bit of extra air, transient response, and overall definition, but not enough so to put it even close to the brighter, tighter condenser-like qualities of my AEA N22 (another great mic you could probably find priced in your range on Reverb or something). The Stagers are still happening. This thread is more so about finding a second pair of ribbons in addition to the Stagers. Gotcha! Well if you want something on the opposite end of the spectrum as the SR-2N and Fatheads (I own a pair of the Lundahl Fathead IIs and also really enjoy them), I get a lot of great use out of my AEA N22. Active ribbon, extremely crisp and detailed for a ribbon, almost like a smooth condenser with some ribbon qualities thrown in. I've enjoyed all of the AEA mics I've used, but that one pops out as something that would potentially give you additional variety/versatility. The Bumblebee looks really cool and I'd love to build one at some point, but I've never used one myself.
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Post by anders on Aug 23, 2020 0:46:53 GMT -6
I have a NoHype audio LRM-V, which sounds ace. It is of the RCA school, so you'll often need to roll off some low end and add some top, but it takes EQ well, and is great on vocals and electric guitar. Probably also as a room mic on drums, but haven't gotten around to testing that yet.
He makes some more classic music friendly mics, including a stereo one, as well.
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Post by Michael O. on Aug 23, 2020 12:26:17 GMT -6
While ribbon mics seem to be popular for general purpose use these days, I still tend to use them for relatively specific applications. Namely, horns (solo or ensemble, it’s the only application where I’d pick a ribbon nearly every time), drums (sometimes you just need to get that Hi Records sound, and sometimes you just want to change things up for the sake of doing so). Occasionally acoustic guitars and violin family instruments as well, in addition to the odd vocal, but usually only when a project or client calls for a very particular aesthetic. Oh yeah, and percussion, including marimba/vibes/glock/xylo. As for amplifiers, in general I don’t think a ribbon brings much to the table that the usual md409, 545, re15, u87, etc. can’t already provide. So, you could probably guess that I prefer the old type of ribbon mic voicing rather than the more modern, post-r121 sort of voicing that most tend to have these days (i.e., much brighter, hotter output, and, while obviously maintaining the velocity response to transients, they’re not at all like a 44, 639, or 4038 in tone).
Having said all that, my main suggestion would be to find an RCA mi-6203. These mics sound similar to a good 77dx, are more consistent mic to mic than the 77 family (simpler acoustic labyrinth), and are easier to position. Barring finding a good 6203 for the right price (just did a quick search and prices seem to be creeping up; which recording mag interview is to blame this time?), the sk-46 is, despite what many think, a worthwhile mic that can perform well in the same applications when paired with the right preamp. Another sleeper/hard to find RCA-style ribbon mic is the Turner Model 87. The one I have is lower output and slightly narrower bandwidth than its RCA contemporaries, but a really classy mic nonetheless that ticks all the boxes for me.
Geez that was way longer winded than intended, I hope it can be useful to someone.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 24, 2020 8:32:50 GMT -6
Welcome Michael!
Now I have to go and look for the RM-5 videos you guys have mentioned..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2020 8:43:56 GMT -6
I really got into ribbons due to having a smaller space that I tried to track full bands in. The figure 8 was a lifesaver. Some of these would only hit your $500 threshold if you find the right Reverb seller, but I look at price history and it happens a good deal. Rode NTR - active ribbon and more modern sounding than vintage, but it really captures details nicely on all sorts of sources. I think if guitar cabs are the target, then any one of the Royer R-10, AEA R-92, M160. I use the Fatheads just like you and have been happy, but tried the R-10 on a session and it was a notch livelier. Never actually tried the M160 but so many folks can't be wrong about them and you can get one today on Reverb under $500. I've heard some good comments on the se VR2 active ribbons, but also heard complaints about them falling apart. Never a good feeling. Since you mentioned rejection in small spaces.... the M160 is outstanding for that. One of the reasons I love them for overheads is that you get insane stereo localization with a spaced pair. Not always what you want, but they have better separation than anything else I've tried (in that application), and a fortunate byproduct of that is that they will also reject anything to the l/r of the kit. A mono M160 in front of a kit is great too, if you want a tighter / more direct room mic.
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Post by Quint on Aug 24, 2020 9:42:11 GMT -6
I really got into ribbons due to having a smaller space that I tried to track full bands in. The figure 8 was a lifesaver. Some of these would only hit your $500 threshold if you find the right Reverb seller, but I look at price history and it happens a good deal. Rode NTR - active ribbon and more modern sounding than vintage, but it really captures details nicely on all sorts of sources. I think if guitar cabs are the target, then any one of the Royer R-10, AEA R-92, M160. I use the Fatheads just like you and have been happy, but tried the R-10 on a session and it was a notch livelier. Never actually tried the M160 but so many folks can't be wrong about them and you can get one today on Reverb under $500. I've heard some good comments on the se VR2 active ribbons, but also heard complaints about them falling apart. Never a good feeling. Since you mentioned rejection in small spaces.... the M160 is outstanding for that. One of the reasons I love them for overheads is that you get insane stereo localization with a spaced pair. Not always what you want, but they have better separation than anything else I've tried (in that application), and a fortunate byproduct of that is that they will also reject anything to the l/r of the kit. A mono M160 in front of a kit is great too, if you want a tighter / more direct room mic. I'm guessing this is because the M160s also reject to the rear instead of just the sides like a typical figure 8 ribbon? I've never used an M160, but one of the the things I really like about ribbons, in general, is how effectively they can be used to eliminate sound from places you don't want it, provided you don't also have unwanted sound coming from the rear.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 24, 2020 9:47:27 GMT -6
M160 is a Hypercardioid, meaning it has a small rear lobe of pickup. The front lobe is more "narrow" or pointed than a cardioid. The rear lobe is much smaller than a figure 8 though. The nulls would be at some angle to the rear of the mic, not 180 degrees opposite. Here's a graph I found. This graph is calling the nulls 120 degrees and 240 degrees off axis. Attachments:
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Post by Quint on Aug 24, 2020 11:21:44 GMT -6
M160 is a Hypercardioid, meaning it has a small rear lobe of pickup. The front lobe is more "narrow" or pointed than a cardioid. The rear lobe is much smaller than a figure 8 though. The nulls would be at some angle to the rear of the mic, not 180 degrees opposite. Here's a graph I found. This graph is calling the nulls 120 degrees and 240 degrees off axis. Right. The M160 is different than most ribbons, which are in figure 8. I guess what I was trying to ask was how much of the stereo localization, that Sloweye mentioned, is due to a narrower hypercardiod pickup pattern on the front of the M160 versus the fact that it doesn't pick up in the back near as much as a typical ribbon? I'm guessing it's probably some of both.
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