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Post by nico on Mar 30, 2014 17:30:25 GMT -6
Hi people, I was about to write in a thread that is of interest to me, about big-kahuna-pros converters choices and uses like specific converters for tracking/mixing/monitoring/mastering? and in tandem with mixing consoles, summers, or pure itb etc... if some use them for a specific sound quality, or for it's lack of sound artefacts Unfortunately the thread got closed, because heated arguments, and wanted to write about that related to the topic, and the topic so here it is: It is very hard when people are passionate about something not to get into arguments, specialized forums especially, they will always generate heated debates which is fine, because confrontations of ideas can often do some good as long as a topic stays constructive. Add to this that with non-live, non-auditive & non-visual communication ( except emoticons ), it is also hard to sense in what emotion a post was written, as you can feel nor hear nor see the person. Therefore, rapid escalation of (mis)interpretations are easy pitfalls I find that sound is one of the greatest vessels of emotions in se, very much for sound-minded people like here, not only the music in itself. So: listening is a personal and subjective physical and emotional experience, whatever figures and numbers tell. Listening at such a level of details regarding converters is therefore even more subjective. If one person on the planet feels that converter X, whatever price, specs, improves their experience of dealing with sound and help them deliver the sound they are after, awesome! There cannot and never will be a consensus with listening tests of such specialized pro audio gear, for reasons stated above, and because we all have different ears, tastes and different listening environments. Listening tests are good for comparing audio artefacts or improvements that are really audible by a majority, ie the apparent signature of a piece of gear ( although even that is subjective dependent on what you feed said gear with...) I say, to each our own on how deep we are willing to delve in finding the right equipment, after all that's what forums like these and the audio industry are for : trying to quench our eternal thirst for "the" sound we are looking for, even if it exists only in our heads, even if we cannot hear it yet If you want to do that by ear? fine. by 3d party shootouts? fine. by reading or discussing it? fine. Ok, more info on big-kahuna-guys-converters anyone? Regards, Nico
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Post by drbill on Mar 30, 2014 23:27:41 GMT -6
BTW, I REALLY believe in the placebo effect, confirmation bias, personal favorites or any other "technically WRONG" bias that gets me excited to work and create. I could care less if I'm WRONG, as long as I THINK I'm right. All the testing and BS means nothing if you are so caught up in it to make something meaningful.
How many "wrong" things do we do every day, because we either believe in it or like the way "wrong" sounds???
Anyway that said.....
85 % of the sessions I've done or attended in LA from Capitol on down to smaller basic studio's use ONE converter. The much maligned Digi 192. Over the last couple of years they are slowly switching over to the Avid HD 192's or whatever they call them now. The other 15% are mostly older Apogee's and uber high end Prism's (sorry, can't remember the model.) The Prism's are mostly on UBER high end Scoring Stages like the Sony Stage or Warner Bros. The Orch guys seem to really like those.
Studio's who are serious to make a living at it seem to all fall into one boat - PT and 192. At least in LA. I'm sure it's different to a degree in London or other places. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule, but IMO, once you get up to the pro level, converters are such a small part of the equation that I'll use whatever is there and get the same results. The closer it is to the performers lips or fingers, the more important it is to me. The closer it is to the computer, the less important it becomes to me.
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Post by nico on Mar 31, 2014 6:41:52 GMT -6
thx for the info DrBill ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) yes, even here in EU, Digi 192 seem to have found it's way in a lot of studios. I guess the easy integration with PTHD and the blue&silver look has become a typical studio-rackview, as much as 1176 or Distressors. An SSL console with Digi 192 is pretty common here. Regarding the Prism, the ADA-8XR perhaps? remember a couple mixers/studio owners raving about it, but never heard it in action. As discrete companions to the Digi I often, and I mean often, saw Behringer ADA 8000...begs the question if they have seen much use, or were just sitting there in case more i/o was needed....
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Post by henge on Mar 31, 2014 8:18:32 GMT -6
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Post by henge on Mar 31, 2014 8:23:54 GMT -6
BTW, I REALLY believe in the placebo effect, confirmation bias, personal favorites or any other "technically WRONG" bias that gets me excited to work and create. I could care less if I'm WRONG, as long as I THINK I'm right. All the testing and BS means nothing if you are so caught up in it to make something meaningful. How many "wrong" things do we do every day, because we either believe in it or like the way "wrong" sounds??? Anyway that said..... 85 % of the sessions I've done or attended in LA from Capitol on down to smaller basic studio's use ONE converter. The much maligned Digi 192. Over the last couple of years they are slowly switching over to the Avid HD 192's or whatever they call them now. The other 15% are mostly older Apogee's and uber high end Prism's (sorry, can't remember the model.) The Prism's are mostly on UBER high end Scoring Stages like the Sony Stage or Warner Bros. The Orch guys seem to really like those. Studio's who are serious to make a living at it seem to all fall into one boat - PT and 192. At least in LA. I'm sure it's different to a degree in London or other places. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule, but IMO, once you get up to the pro level, converters are such a small part of the equation that I'll use whatever is there and get the same results. The closer it is to the performers lips or fingers, the more important it is to me. The closer it is to the computer, the less important it becomes to me.I'm stealing the bold part!! ;-)
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Post by nico on Mar 31, 2014 9:04:31 GMT -6
drbill ( & others, please chime in ) : yes you are right, converters seem to play a small part in the equation, even for big studios/mixers around the globe, seeing the amount of Digi 192 that have been used on countless pro recordings. What I still wonder is this : there are 10s of high end companies that produce very expensive AD/DA Multichannel boxes. Producing them means there is a market for it. Besides for mastering, where you see a lot of these expensive brands products present as stereo units, where do these multichannel boxes go....in secret spaces of studios/producers homes? or are they intended for hobbyists with a lot of dough to spend, kinda like high end "audiophile" stuff? Or is it a dying market? PS: I am not fishing about the relevance of said high end converters, because as I stated earlier I think that if they make a difference in the process for anyone, then great! regards, Nico
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 31, 2014 10:55:58 GMT -6
I appreciate nico's live and let live approach, but I also can't believe this was rehashed?? Ok then, Since the 192 is rightly recognized as a staple, Mike shipley, Allison Krause, Mutt Lange, SOS and mix magazine seemed to think the digi 192 sounded much better when a BLA FM(fully modded)192 was added? The mix article talks about the advantages of summing multiple tracks being noticeably better. From what I've heard with my own ears, the bla mods are very real, but cue the soundblaster crowd, because I'm sure we're all FOS mixonline.com/gear/reviews/black_lion_audio_fm192_interface_review/Go to game changers www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul11/articles/it-0711.htm
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 31, 2014 11:11:18 GMT -6
Yeah...there are obviously two factions of people on this board that believe two different things. I happen to believe that the converter you use is the basic building block for the rest of your signal chain. I do, however believe that the quality of the microphone has the biggest effect on the quality of your sound. Personally, I have chosen not to put $7000-$10000 into a microphone...the truth of the matter is that it ALL matters. Every piece of the chain. I believe that the difference in cheaper ($1500 and up) microphones is smaller than the difference in cheap converters vs. more expensive converters. YMMV. I would say it really comes down to doing your own tests and being comfortable with your own results.
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Post by drbill on Mar 31, 2014 11:16:30 GMT -6
Everything matters. Some things matter MORE. There are people who can and will pay almost ANYTHING for a small incremental upgrade to their signal path. There are others who can and do get by with "good enough".
All verifiable truths.
The only thing that really matters? Your final product, and how quick / easy it is for you to achieve your benchmark.
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Post by svart on Mar 31, 2014 11:29:46 GMT -6
I think the bell curve definitely works for whatever piece of gear. Once you get above the curve, throwing more money at something does not necessarily mean 1:1 performance increase. I think most things at the bottom of the curve are useless toys, while everything from 1/4 to 3/4s of the curve is totally useful and can be used without worry, and everything at the top is generally just dick measuring.
There are exceptions, but you only have to look at what the pros use to figure out what works and what doesn't. Time and money they have spent has already weeded out the stuff that won't work. Everything left is what it truly takes to enable your skills.
I personally think that the most important part of the sound is using the mics and gear correctly, rather than the brand of the gear. Too many times I've heard someone with a U87 and neve preamp going into an HD converter and it sounds like crap. Moving the mic another inch on the speaker cone would have made it sound 90% better, but choosing a different mic/preamp/converter would not have. Or, maybe someone used a great preamp with low gain and put a pumping 1176 on it and jacked up the output and recorded a big hissy mess. Nothing you can do to fix that correctly. You may be able to put a band-aid on it but now your mixing skills will be questioned by others and it'll become fodder for the "you don't need good/expensive gear, just listen to how bad that neve and 1176 sound, my digi001 and compression plug-in preset#1 sound so much better!" crowd who aim to justify their cheapness.
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Post by nico on Mar 31, 2014 12:50:54 GMT -6
tonycamphd : thanks for the input and links (and sorry for rehashing, it's not that I don't like google, I just sometimes prefer chatting on forums ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) @ others: I know this might not be an interesting topic or thing in the greater scheme of things...for me right now it is what I am interested in. My GAS for mics/pres etc... is temporarily under control, so, well, one GAS goes out...another GAS in I guess ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I guess there's maybe not much to talk about converters non-scientifically FWIW I just checked a few major high-end converter builders website, plenty of info...maybe, in the end google is your friend....(sigh) on to bigger, better and bolder topics peace regards Nico
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 31, 2014 12:58:48 GMT -6
tonycamphd : thanks for the input and links (and sorry for rehashing, it's not that I don't like google, I just sometimes prefer chatting on forums ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) He's just saying that considering how the other thread turned out - the one and only locked thread on RGO - that he was surprised someone would bring it up a day later. That's fine - this thread seems to be more informative and less "I know what's scientific and right and all you other assholes are dumb..."...You are free to talk about whatever you want on here...
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Post by jazznoise on Mar 31, 2014 13:17:12 GMT -6
Discussion without space for differences in opinion is, at best, a circle jerk. But I'm sorry: Let's lock the thread before anyone can make any rational argument that another person might disagree with and then make repeated passive aggressive remarks along the lines of 'There's only 1 opinion allowed in my house'. We've lost 2 perfectly good threads to John having a strop now, and it's ridiculous. What's the merit in this forum if you can't read something you haven't read already?
Sorry, Nico, I didn't want to derail your thread but I think the baiting that's being going on is a load of faggoty bullshit and that the grown men who post here would want to get a grip of themselves. This is seriously below John and Tony and if ye're going to flip the bird every time someone like Ethan Whiner shows up with an argument you're not comfortable with then you're going to end up with another shitpost internet forum full of 16 year olds with SM7's and stolen Waves plugins. Believe it or not, the 'science types' are the exact asset you find fascinating to read about when they talk the voodoo you like and they don't suddenly become witches when they speak the voodoo you don't like. That hostility that arises is you being an obstinate cunt, and not only refusing to recognize the effort of others to help inform the audio community but also refusing to listen to others because you think 'fact' and 'I think this really strongly' are interchangeable.
inb4 'I will not tolerate this', inb4 the inevitable ban, l8r ameriburgers
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Post by nico on Mar 31, 2014 13:20:21 GMT -6
thanks admin, it didn't rub the wrong way, by talking and reading about it, I realize it is just not a very hot topic. Kinda how on a non-mechanical-oriented supercar forum, discussing a under-the-hood element might not generate much typing on the keyboards ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I will ask one more little question then, to oblige, and then move on to greener, transistor & tube filled pastures ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) = Regarding multichannel high end converters: are there some specifically preferred for tracking - mixing - summing ( digi or analog ) among everybody here, and why ? Ok with you admin to open up the thread to us, mere mortals, and leave the big kahunas out, for a while ? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) regards, Nico
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Post by nico on Mar 31, 2014 13:29:08 GMT -6
jazznoise : am I an obstinate cunt? I don't think it is directed to me, but the lack of emoticons in your post makes it hard to figure the tone of speach you're in, in fact, exactly what I was talking about in my first post with regards to the old thread, and on-line emotions. Regarding the grip on ourselves, I think it would be only fair that it also applies to you. Take a breath, a beer, whatever, it's converters we're talking about I'd like to think I am not said description, but I don't mind. peace Nico
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 31, 2014 13:33:33 GMT -6
Discussion without space for differences in opinion is, at best, a circle jerk. But I'm sorry: Let's lock the thread before anyone can make any rational argument that another person might disagree with and then make repeated passive aggressive remarks along the lines of 'There's only 1 opinion allowed in my house'. We've lost 2 perfectly good threads to John having a strop now, and it's ridiculous. What's the merit in this forum if you can't read something you haven't read already? Sorry, Nico, I didn't want to derail your thread but I think the baiting that's being going on is a load of faggoty bullshit and that the grown men who post here would want to get a grip of themselves. This is seriously below John and Tony and if ye're going to flip the bird every time someone like Ethan Whiner shows up with an argument you're not comfortable with then you're going to end up with another shitpost internet forum full of 16 year olds with SM7's and stolen Waves plugins. Believe it or not, the 'science types' are the exact asset you find fascinating to read about when they talk the voodoo you like and they don't suddenly become witches when they speak the voodoo you don't like. That hostility that arises is you being an obstinate cunt, and not only refusing to recognize the effort of others to help inform the audio community but also refusing to listen to others because you think 'fact' and 'I think this really strongly' are interchangeable. inb4 'I will not tolerate this', inb4 the inevitable ban, l8r ameriburgers If you don't like the way I'm running my forum, you are free to leave anytime you like. If you keep up this shit, I'll make the decision for you.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 31, 2014 13:38:12 GMT -6
jazznoise : am I an obstinate cunt? I don't think it is directed to me, but the lack of emoticons in your post makes it hard to figure the tone of speach you're in, in fact, exactly what I was talking about in my first post with regards to the old thread, and on-line emotions. Regarding the grip on ourselves, I think it would be only fair that it also applies to you. Take a breath, a beer, whatever, it's converters we're talking about I'd like to think I am not said description, but I don't mind. peace Nico Let me ask this to the rest of you. Is it ok for Jazznoise to call anyone an "Obstinate cunt"? Does that belong here?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 31, 2014 13:40:38 GMT -6
I think it's ok coming form a guy who has been here for a while with 400+ posts. Guy that just signed up with 5 posts, not so much. JMO.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 31, 2014 13:42:06 GMT -6
I'm not sure I agree with you. My relationship with someone seems to spiral downward after being called an obstinate cunt.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 31, 2014 13:46:03 GMT -6
My relationship with someone seems to spiral downward after being called an obstinate cunt. I can't argue that.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 31, 2014 13:52:53 GMT -6
And btw - I could ultimately give TWO SHITS what anyone else believes about ADDA's. Really, I don't care. If you believe what Ethan professes, more power to you - I have ZERO problem with that.
This - the name calling, the incessant complaining, the running off of people that have something to contribute - that is exactly what I didn't want this board to become. So, I'm just going to have to do what I need to do to prevent it from becoming that.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 31, 2014 13:57:46 GMT -6
Jazz, SMH dude, although your premiss is wildly off, pot meet kettle... Your attitude is combative, and condescending as hell? What have you done in your life that makes you king shit? I whole heartedly disagree with you on some things, and my research and findings were scientific in my own controlled space, are you calling me a liar/ besides a cunt? The shoot out you did, was NOT in my control, and comes off as less than useful to me, i've suggested to everyone, multiple times, "get the shit and find out on your own"! I also pointed out to you on the "what i'm working on" sub forum that the mp3 320 sounded smeared on the hi hats, compared to the wave file, but you ignored that?so now what? Save the high horsing BS for gearslutz, you're not talking to a bunch of kids here dude, and you're managing to "piss" too many of us who aren't shoving our point of view down other peoples throats,....off!
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Post by svart on Mar 31, 2014 14:27:58 GMT -6
Arguments are expected when emotional subjects are thrown around and while they can be constuctive, unfortunately there is no excuses for calling people names, even if it's just a product of blowing off steam over a heated exchange over who's right.
Now all of you kiss and make up.
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Post by jazznoise on Mar 31, 2014 14:45:06 GMT -6
If you want to focus on the name calling, great. But you're not dealing with my point so I'm going back to that. Ethan presented a case in the last thread and was met with total derision. Like the 'bias' in the URL of the test? I stepped in to defend the argument partially - referencing Svarts point that bad board designs often contribute more than the chips themselves - and said that while a few cheap bits of kit like Mboxes and Laptop soundcards suffer with noise and groundloops, most DAC's are perfectly good and have no audible difference (the one case I remember sounding noticeably bad was a Digi 192 that died a few weeks later). John twisted the argument, as he has done again by insinuating I'm running off people who contribute when that's the case I was making against his behavior, to make it out that I was saying all soundcards sounded the same and that I was wrong. I pointed out that you did that, pointed out you'd no evidence amounted to make your case either way, insulted you back (which was a mistake, to descend to the same level) and you got buttmad and shut the thread. Then you made a bitchy little passive aggressive sticky (in which for some reason you wouldn't name me), for the second time, complaining about forum behavior. Then you decided to reference me in the thread passively again, and the cattyness got to me. As for the incessant complaining you're now complaining about..where? Outside of your head, where? I'm nothing special in the audio community and I don't think anyone here makes themselves out to be either, but if you're not willing to let your opinions clash you will learn nothing. I'm pretty sure 'everyone' I'm making mad is about 2-3 people, but it's not my boat. I'll gladly get off and everyone can nod sagely about how the same 3 interfaces are all very good. Everyone can all agree on the things they do and get along, and then throw toys out of the pram when they don't. tony You've never presented a test or any sort of repeatable method, which is the nature of a fair test. Untested factors need to blameless to assert a test is fair or you're fooling yourself. This is not Alex Jones tier conspiracy, this is the basis of our understanding of most things. If you made a valid point and I skipped over it, sorry, but mostly it's been all awash in a muggy sea of subjectivity-to-avoid-scrutiny. Again - it's fine to have that opinion and your advice is also perfectly sound in terms of 'try it and see' - but the attitude that this inner truth is somehow as real as objective measurements and testing is fallacious. nico I was aiming nothing at you except the apology for the thread derailment. Sorry about that, again.
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Post by matt on Mar 31, 2014 14:50:05 GMT -6
IMHO, it is more important to be civil on boards like RGO because it is all to easy to be the opposite. Anyone can see the result of unfettered bickering over on GS, and it's what drove most of us over here. I am not talking about spirited debate, either - I enjoy reading, and maybe learning a few things, on each thread. Even when I don't necessarily agree. So, come on people, gather around and sing:
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