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Post by mrholmes on May 13, 2020 7:32:04 GMT -6
Dear RGOs.
Thanks again for your input and advice.
I have no idea which devil rode me that I could do without the KM184 for two years. I did try four times inexpensive SDCs, and I was four times not happy. The KM180 family is simply a class of its own. Even close on axis @ 14th fret the guitar sounds 90% more like what I would expect from the players position.
Just 30 seconds of recording showed many flaws of inexpensive China Microphones.
Neumann KM 184
• There is nothing harsh, not a single resonance is hyped, it's a solid sound picture.
• The signal is to 90% where I want it. • EQing works excellent, the signal is not collapsing.
• Placing the mic is easy.
• Room sound is more together with the guitar - even if it's not the best sounding room. • Room sound is suppressed in close / with the cheapos the room sound is often as loud as the direct signal.
If gear makes a big difference? Then yes start with a great microphone.
I will never again buy a china mic, what ever some marketing people tell me.
To me this shows that globalization is producing crap. When I ever hear again that the china car or china guitar is as good as a Mercedes-Benz or a Martin guitar. I will just smile and do it my way.
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Post by sozocaps on May 13, 2020 8:00:39 GMT -6
I've used them tons, I have them still, a little hard sounding for me. I do like the 251 for overheads better. I have a good sounding drum room so I get it !!!
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Post by Omicron9 on May 13, 2020 9:10:40 GMT -6
Great! It's refreshing to hear someone using their ears to decide on the 184 and not have their hearing influenced by popular opinion. I've always really liked the 184, in spite of all the hate it seems to draw. I think it's a fine mic for sure. Congratulations!
Regards, -09
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Post by mrholmes on May 13, 2020 10:47:28 GMT -6
I've used them tons, I have them still, a little hard sounding for me. I do like the 251 for overheads better. I have a good sounding drum room so I get it !!!
Yes maybe a bit hard in the upper mids but for acoustics in a busy mix great IMO.
And I find cutting with the EQ not bad either....
Just remember:
I came from China SDCs Tbone SC140 - RODE-NT5 or LEWITT-MATCH040 trying to get the sound back which I had in my mind. Its just stupid to try again and again and not to ask a friend for borrowing a 184, or to listen to older tracks.
Just because of my thread about buying a new SDC I came to the conclusion to not have another try with CHINA SDCs.
Now its just big "Hello I missed you".
I can hear the whole picture without wholes. It is a relief if close miced does not sound like crap anymore.
I also own the MG UMT70 but it was not the sound I heard in my head. It also picked up too much of the not so great sounding room.
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Post by Ward on May 13, 2020 10:48:46 GMT -6
Very happy for you! And yes, the 184 is very close to the 84. Both wonderful microphones. I respect that many (including everyone at Neumann) prefer the 184 over the 84.
Congrats!!
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Post by mrholmes on May 13, 2020 12:02:49 GMT -6
Very happy for you! And yes, the 184 is very close to the 84. Both wonderful microphones. I respect that many (including everyone at Neumann) prefer the 184 over the 84. Congrats!!
Do they say why they prefer the 184?
I never had an 84 in my hand or in front of my guitar.
What is the difference in your opinion?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
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Post by ericn on May 13, 2020 12:34:38 GMT -6
Not my favorite hammer, but if it works for you and your happy I’m ecstatic!
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Post by Ward on May 13, 2020 14:11:01 GMT -6
Very happy for you! And yes, the 184 is very close to the 84. Both wonderful microphones. I respect that many (including everyone at Neumann) prefer the 184 over the 84. Congrats!! Do they say way they prefer the 184? I never had an 84 in my hand or in front of my guitar.
What is the difference in your opinion?
Neumann says they sound the same, virtually, but the 184 has less noise. Maybe, the KM84 isn't the quietest SDC out there. But the thing about it ? It hears exactly what I hear. All the time. Even when off axis. It's still one of the great wonders of the modern world. And you'll find a lot of agreement here. The 184 just sounds a little bit hyped and the off-axis pickup isn't quite the same. Arguably, less self-noise and if recording directly on axis perhaps it's better. The decision is purely personal and subjective.
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Post by mrholmes on May 13, 2020 15:01:47 GMT -6
Do they say way they prefer the 184? I never had an 84 in my hand or in front of my guitar.
What is the difference in your opinion?
Neumann says they sound the same, virtually, but the 184 has less noise. Maybe, the KM84 isn't the quietest SDC out there. But the thing about it ? It hears exactly what I hear. All the time. Even when off axis. It's still one of the great wonders of the modern world. And you'll find a lot of agreement here. The 184 just sounds a little bit hyped and the off-axis pickup isn't quite the same. Arguably, less self-noise and if recording directly on axis perhaps it's better. The decision is purely personal and subjective.
Ok but an KM84 is near impossible to get used? I would love to try one.
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Post by EmRR on May 13, 2020 15:10:38 GMT -6
There's a real pretty KM84 on a tapers forum for $1250. Seems to be low for a nice one these days. You're in Germany though, should be more inexpensive local options.
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Post by drsax on May 13, 2020 15:12:28 GMT -6
The KM184 is an excellent mic. Different than KM84 yes, but IMO, a fantastic mic. I’d gladly use them on most any source without a second thought
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Post by mrholmes on May 13, 2020 15:45:56 GMT -6
The KM184 is an excellent mic. Different than KM84 yes, but IMO, a fantastic mic. I’d gladly use them on most any source without a second thought
I am not second guessing the 184 I am just keen to understand the "stories" around the "magical" 84.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 13, 2020 16:09:00 GMT -6
I've used both. The KM 184 sounds quite similar to the 84, but it's a little thinner. The 84 does a magic trick, when it comes to engineering there isn't supposed to be any magic, but it's true. You can just about point the 84 at anything and play, and it will sound good, like uhh.. really good.
The only mic that works almost the same way I've tried is the Soyuz 0-13 FET. It's very similar, quieter and has more gain. The KM184 is pretty close though so you can definitely be happy using one. It's nothing like the cheap imitations.
Also, in a pinch, the KM84 is a good vocal mic!
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Post by bluegrassdan on May 13, 2020 16:23:34 GMT -6
The 184 ain't bad. My shootouts with them against 84s reveal that they're from the same family. No hate from me.
But the 84 does not do the "glassy pick noise" thing like a 184. That is why I own four KM84s.
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Post by Ward on May 13, 2020 16:55:37 GMT -6
The 184 ain't bad. My shootouts with them against 84s reveals that they're from the same family. No hate from me. But the 84 does not do the "glassy pick noise" thing like a 184. That is why I own four KM84s. I sure could use 2-3 more of those $650 microphones if you're selling a couple. :-)
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Post by EmRR on May 13, 2020 17:18:55 GMT -6
The 184 ain't bad. My shootouts with them against 84s reveals that they're from the same family. No hate from me. But the 84 does not do the "glassy pick noise" thing like a 184. That is why I own four KM84s. Yeah, that's what most of the noise is about. Treble boost versus none. Which is really about diffuse field versus free field use.
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Post by johneppstein on May 13, 2020 18:18:53 GMT -6
The KM184 is an excellent mic. Different than KM84 yes, but IMO, a fantastic mic. I’d gladly use them on most any source without a second thought
I am not second guessing the 184 I am just keen to understand the "stories" around the "magical" 84.
The 84 is not hyped and the off axis sound is identical to the on-axis. There are very, very few directional mics that can do that.
I personally do not like hyped (or scooped) mics. If I want the track EQed that's why I have knobs - and I can use them to my taste, it's not baked in. Some will claim that you can use EQ to "un-hype" a mic but you can't, really - there are always residual effects and nearly all modern solid state EQ circuits leave some kind of "signature" behind. They can't help it - the typical EQ works on phase shift and phase shift always leaves some signature.
OF COURSE the people at Neumann would say that the current product is "better" - their jobs depend on it and the current corporate philosophy appears to be that catering to current popular trends is better than striving for accurate rendition. That's what happens when the people who run the company are more interested in effective marketing than in absolute quality. In a way I can't say that I blame them too much; their job is to sell product. But I don't have to like it.
It's not so much that the 84 is "magical", it's that this is a lily that has not been gilded, in an era when nearly all flowers have some coating of spray paint.
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Post by reddirt on May 13, 2020 21:00:57 GMT -6
this is a lily that has not been gilded, in an era when nearly all flowers have some coating of spray paint.
Carefull John, you're almost in the comedic realms of that Chris chessparov fella! Cheers, Ross
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Post by bluegrassdan on May 13, 2020 21:24:53 GMT -6
You know, we all talk about the KM84’s high frequencies so much. But there’s something about how it captures the midrange that really does it for me. Not sure what it is exactly. Better resolution and musicality? (I know that’s not scientific).
Yes. Yes. The midrange!
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Post by drbill on May 13, 2020 22:11:19 GMT -6
The KM184 is an excellent mic. Different than KM84 yes, but IMO, a fantastic mic. I’d gladly use them on most any source without a second thought
I am not second guessing the 184 I am just keen to understand the "stories" around the "magical" 84.
They are similar. But different enough to cause huge controversy! Speaking to STRICTLY on axis response : The 184 is "harder" sounding. For me, it's not really that it's brighter - it's "harder". More edge. That can work for you or against you. Depends what you need. Like John mentioned, I can EQ that kind of edge in if I want it, but it's harder to remove if it's there naturally. Mostly, I don't want it - so the 84 works better for me. Also, the 84 has a very smooth, fairy sprinkled open top end. Don't know how to describe it, but I hear many vintage mics of that era 60/70's that have that kind of sound. I have no idea why or how, but that era Neumann mics - at least the good ones - seem to have it. The 84 is smoother and more open than the 184. Then, you get to the off-axis response. There is only one king, and there is no "1" in the name. That's the best way I could describe it.
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Post by the other mark williams on May 13, 2020 22:41:26 GMT -6
I am not second guessing the 184 I am just keen to understand the "stories" around the "magical" 84.
They are similar. But different enough to cause huge controversy! [...] There is only one king, and there is no "1" in the name. That's the best way I could describe it.
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Post by chessparov on May 13, 2020 22:43:57 GMT -6
this is a lily that has not been gilded, in an era when nearly all flowers have some coating of spray paint.
Carefull John, you're almost in the comedic realms of that Chris chessparov fella! Cheers, Ross I resemble this remark +-3db. Chris
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Post by mrholmes on May 14, 2020 4:06:41 GMT -6
The 184 ain't bad. My shootouts with them against 84s reveal that they're from the same family. No hate from me. But the 84 does not do the "glassy pick noise" thing like a 184. That is why I own four KM84s. You know, we all talk about the KM84’s high frequencies so much. But there’s something about how it captures the midrange that really does it for me. Not sure what it is exactly. Better resolution and musicality? (I know that’s not scientific). Yes. Yes. The midrange!
I am not second guessing the 184 I am just keen to understand the "stories" around the "magical" 84.
They are similar. But different enough to cause huge controversy! Speaking to STRICTLY on axis response : The 184 is "harder" sounding. For me, it's not really that it's brighter - it's "harder". More edge. That can work for you or against you. Depends what you need. Like John mentioned, I can EQ that kind of edge in if I want it, but it's harder to remove if it's there naturally. Mostly, I don't want it - so the 84 works better for me. Also, the 84 has a very smooth, fairy sprinkled open top end. Don't know how to describe it, but I hear many vintage mics of that era 60/70's that have that kind of sound. I have no idea why or how, but that era Neumann mics - at least the good ones - seem to have it. The 84 is smoother and more open than the 184. Then, you get to the off-axis response. There is only one king, and there is no "1" in the name. That's the best way I could describe it.
Thank you for all the answers. Called one in town with a big Vintage collection.
For a Berlin based Studio he is not having an KM84 (Strange).
I am still thankful for the 184 because it makes my work easier, and to my surprise the signal is a lot different compared to my LDC UMT 70. The 184 it makes recording decisions on ACG much easier for me, alone this fact justifies the 700 bucks.
I think one day I will have an 84 too, but for now I am thankful for the 184.
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Post by EmRR on May 14, 2020 7:12:18 GMT -6
You know, we all talk about the KM84’s high frequencies so much. But there’s something about how it captures the midrange that really does it for me. Not sure what it is exactly. Better resolution and musicality? (I know that’s not scientific). Yes. Yes. The midrange! The mids are what I notice most positively about the Neumann SDC’s I’ve used.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 14, 2020 10:20:20 GMT -6
The biggest problem the 184 has is sensitivity to RFI. That means you pretty much always want to avoid using it with transformerless microphone preamps. Assuming I can cover that issue, I'd take it over any of the contemporary competition.
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