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Post by johneppstein on Mar 14, 2020 17:43:56 GMT -6
I should say I’m all for leaving partisan politics out of this. It’s difficult when so many political realities are inextricably tied into it. But I have no interest in political tribalism, here or anywhere else. I think the facts speak for themselves. Other people see it differently. Well, it's not me or anybody I know associate with who injected partisan politics into what has historically been an almost totally nonpartisan issue. Anybody who isn't totally insane or terminally stupid knows that public health is not something to play politics with.
And if (some) people choose to use it as a political football the result is totally on them.
Unfortunately it affects all of us, sooner or later. Pigeons do come home to root.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 14, 2020 17:47:49 GMT -6
Bottom line is just don't get infected in the first place at least for as long as possible. That means avoiding all contact with others outside your immediately family group as long as no members of your own family are infected.
Mixing with others who show no symptoms is no guarantee that transmission won't occurr as most transmission is now shown to be caused by those who are either asymptomatic, in the early stages of the infection or just think they have a mild cold.
What is about to hit is a Tsunami that will rapidly overwhelm the healthcare systems of most countries within a few weeks from now unless the infection rate is drastically curtailed beginning right now. #flattenthecurve #staythefuckhome
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 15, 2020 8:36:06 GMT -6
No that's a distortion of perception all the people who know research in and out stay calm and speak about facts.
Then media and press comes and makes out of facts alarm bells.
No, it isn’t. I’ve listened to epidemiologist after epidemiologist (calmly) lay out the detailed, data-based reasons this is a big deal. I don’t consume sensationalist media.
One more time my dad is long time MD with many decades of experience.
The truth is:
Nothing special is happening the numbers speak truth it's a virus, and we have viruses every winter time.
The only difference is this time WHO and media make a big hype about it.
MDs are all the time around viruses and bacteria - do we have an MD mass extinction? No, we don't have this it's a normal viral infection thing going around, like with many other viruses too... BTW which no one is talking about anymore.
There is a big hype around this. And another thing is funny they are closing schools and big events. But you can't lock up a virus, that's a fact.
It's also a fact that we can find now in 40% of the population Covid19 antibodies.
There is no reason for hysteria. Like with any other flu season its wise to do the following things.
1. Wash your hands with hot water and soap.
2. Outside walks are good, have some fresh air get some sun if it's there.
3. Science has proven that high doses of vitamin D are eight hundred times stronger than the yearly flu shot.
4. Eat healthy food don't drink don't smoke.
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Post by ragan on Mar 15, 2020 8:44:22 GMT -6
No, it isn’t. I’ve listened to epidemiologist after epidemiologist (calmly) lay out the detailed, data-based reasons this is a big deal. I don’t consume sensationalist media.
One more time my dad is long time MD with many decades of experience.
The truth is:
Nothing special is happening the numbers speak truth it's a virus, and we have viruses every winter time.
The only difference is this time WHO and media make a big hype about it.
MDs are all the time around viruses and bacteria - do we have an MD mass extinction? No, we don't have this it's a normal viral infection thing going around, like with many other viruses too... BTW which no one is talking about anymore.
There is a big hype around this. And another thing is funny they are closing schools and big events. But you can't lock up a virus, that's a fact.
It's also a fact that we can find now in 40% of the population Covid19 antibodies.
There is no reason for hysteria. Like with any other flu season its wise to do the following things.
1. Wash your hands with hot water and soap.
2. Outside walks are good, have some fresh air get some sun if it's there.
3. Science has proven that high doses of vitamin D are eight hundred times stronger than the yearly flu shot.
4. Eat healthy food don't drink don't smoke.
All due respect, I will continue to listen to people whose careers and training revolve around the spread of infectious disease. They are at odds with what you say your dad believes. I realize you think differently and that your dad is an MD, you don’t need to keep repeating it. I’m not trying to convince you to change your mind on anything.
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Post by cyrano on Mar 15, 2020 11:02:31 GMT -6
We don't know how big of a deal this is.
For the govt, it's simple:
- Do nothing and get blamed if it's a big thing. No, you don't get praised if it blows over. In that case, the press might get the blame. - Do something and only get partially blamed if it's a big thing. If it blows over, you can toot your horn and tell the world it was you who stopped the virus.
For the latter choice, we'll never know for sure if the taken measures "stopped" the virus. There's no way to prove it, since there is no reference. It's a new virus, that has since mutated. There's no way of predicting if the mutant will be a lesser or a smaller problem.
The measures taken are in the "what else can we do" category. All others are empty. We have seen no trace yet of animal infection; that's an interesting vector that seems to be absent. Kids don't show symptoms or don't get infected. Etc. Too many unknowns.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 15, 2020 13:02:44 GMT -6
One more time my dad is long time MD with many decades of experience.
The truth is:
Nothing special is happening the numbers speak truth it's a virus, and we have viruses every winter time.
The only difference is this time WHO and media make a big hype about it.
MDs are all the time around viruses and bacteria - do we have an MD mass extinction? No, we don't have this it's a normal viral infection thing going around, like with many other viruses too... BTW which no one is talking about anymore.
There is a big hype around this. And another thing is funny they are closing schools and big events. But you can't lock up a virus, that's a fact.
It's also a fact that we can find now in 40% of the population Covid19 antibodies.
There is no reason for hysteria. Like with any other flu season its wise to do the following things.
1. Wash your hands with hot water and soap.
2. Outside walks are good, have some fresh air get some sun if it's there.
3. Science has proven that high doses of vitamin D are eight hundred times stronger than the yearly flu shot.
4. Eat healthy food don't drink don't smoke.
All due respect, I will continue to listen to people whose careers and training revolve around the spread of infectious disease. They are at odds with what you say your dad believes. I realize you think differently and that your dad is an MD, you don’t need to keep repeating it. I’m not trying to convince you to change your mind on anything.
With all due respect I do believe that you have no experience at all with medical statistics.
He made his points why hysteria in media is going on without relevant facts.
They misinterpret the numbers.
But hey it's up to you to jump into the media hype and to believe that doomsday is coming...
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Post by ragan on Mar 15, 2020 13:14:56 GMT -6
All due respect, I will continue to listen to people whose careers and training revolve around the spread of infectious disease. They are at odds with what you say your dad believes. I realize you think differently and that your dad is an MD, you don’t need to keep repeating it. I’m not trying to convince you to change your mind on anything.
With all due respect I do believe that you have no experience at all with medical statistics.
He made his points why hysteria in media is going on without relevant facts.
They misinterpret the numbers.
But hey it's up to you to jump into the media hype and to believe that doomsday is coming...
Nothing I've posted has anything to do with doomsday or media hype. You have a (strong) pet opinion here and I'm not interested in adopting it or changing your mind about it. You'll have to learn to just be ok with that.
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Post by christopher on Mar 15, 2020 13:19:36 GMT -6
First; ..friendly reminder: breathing is fun! I had a flu in January that turned to mild pneumonia. The feeling of inhaling with a struggle kind of like breathing through a plastic bag over your mouth for a 12 days straight is fresh in my mind. Whatever seemingly silly advice they recommend is worth following if you can avoid that annoying feeling. But if it does happen, the lack of oxygen can make you high AF and that helps.
Second: ... I think my kids will be learning recording and producing this next month.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 15, 2020 13:47:25 GMT -6
All due respect, I will continue to listen to people whose careers and training revolve around the spread of infectious disease. They are at odds with what you say your dad believes. I realize you think differently and that your dad is an MD, you don’t need to keep repeating it. I’m not trying to convince you to change your mind on anything.
With all due respect I do believe that you have no experience at all with medical statistics.
He made his points why hysteria in media is going on without relevant facts.
They misinterpret the numbers.
But hey it's up to you to jump into the media hype and to believe that doomsday is coming...
With all due respect have you seen the first hand reports from those working in the hospitals in Northern Italy and elsewhere? It's not "Just the flu" and not "Only some old people over 80 will die."
The reason for taking this seriously right now is to limit the rate of infection or will we all be facing serious consequences as the hospital systems collapse which IS NOW occurring in Northern Italy and is only weeks away from being repeated elsewhere including the US.
You can argue that 2 x 2 doesn't equal 4 and 4 x 4 doesn't equal 16 but the math, like the spread of the contagion, doesn't care. It's true that the percentage death rate overall is going to ultimately be lower than reported because there are multitudes more cases of COVID-19 out there than are known about which means the numbers are still going to be very high and the system is not designed to cope with the numbers that are coming.
Just over three weeks ago Northern Italy was where we are now. Now try and convince many of those locked down in Northern Italy that everything is fine and they are just being hyperbolic. - Good luck with that.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 15, 2020 14:14:09 GMT -6
No, it isn’t. I’ve listened to epidemiologist after epidemiologist (calmly) lay out the detailed, data-based reasons this is a big deal. I don’t consume sensationalist media.
One more time my dad is long time MD with many decades of experience.
The truth is:
Nothing special is happening the numbers speak truth it's a virus, and we have viruses every winter time.
The only difference is this time WHO and media make a big hype about it.
MDs are all the time around viruses and bacteria - do we have an MD mass extinction? No, we don't have this it's a normal viral infection thing going around, like with many other viruses too... BTW which no one is talking about anymore.
There is a big hype around this. And another thing is funny they are closing schools and big events. But you can't lock up a virus, that's a fact.
It's also a fact that we can find now in 40% of the population Covid19 antibodies.
There is no reason for hysteria. Like with any other flu season its wise to do the following things.
1. Wash your hands with hot water and soap.
2. Outside walks are good, have some fresh air get some sun if it's there.
3. Science has proven that high doses of vitamin D are eight hundred times stronger than the yearly flu shot.
4. Eat healthy food don't drink don't smoke.
Yes you cannot lockup a virus and COVID-19 will eventually end up as part of the 'normal' flu cycle as the population develops herd immunity, via becoming infected and recovering, or eventually being vaccinated at some point in the future.
No argument there. The issue is the RATE of the contagion spread and the overwhelming of the healthcare system.
Modelling predicts up to a billion could be infected by the end of May.
Look at the daily figures coming out of Northern Italy. 368 deaths reported in the last 24 hours. They are doubling approximately every four days. At the current rate that means the daily deaths will hit 10,000 sometime in the first half of April. That's not total deaths, that's in ONE DAY!
Just three weeks ago Italy was where we are now. The urgency is to do everything possible to slow the infection rate.
"It's just the flu" or "It only affects people over 80" is resulting in people delaying taking affirmative action until it is too late. Yes wash your hands, eat healthy etc, BUT over everything else, until the crisis is deemed to be under control, just #staythefuckhome
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 15:26:51 GMT -6
With all due respect I do believe that you have no experience at all with medical statistics.
He made his points why hysteria in media is going on without relevant facts.
They misinterpret the numbers.
But hey it's up to you to jump into the media hype and to believe that doomsday is coming... For what it's worth. My doctor is also an MD with many years experience (who knew). He's taken good care of me for quite a while. He's come to the exact opposite conclusion from your father's. Even if you don't feel I'm qualified to read medical statistics, perhaps you'd agree that my doctor is. All of the doctors taking care of my family understand the gravity of this situation and have communicated this very clearly. There are lots of very large companies--Disney, Apple, Adobe, NHL, MLB, NAB and on down the line--who are not inclined to panic. I'm quite sure that they have access to a lot of medical expertise. They've come down very strongly on the side of caution. Sure, some news outlets look like they're covering the story to death. But I'm willing to bet you that they're making less money than during a normal period of time. Besides the precautions they've had to take, their sports divisions don't really have anything to do but sit on their hands. Experts don't always agree, but there's a lot of experience and a lot of evidence saying this is a real thing. No one is saying this is 'doomsday'. But they are saying that this has the potential to take out elders and other vulnerable people in a disproportionate manner.
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Post by cyrano on Mar 15, 2020 15:55:19 GMT -6
Personally, I wouldn't trust any MD with statistics. I've seen far too many proof that the vast majority in the medical profession hasn't got a clue about statistics...
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 15, 2020 16:27:32 GMT -6
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 15, 2020 16:54:50 GMT -6
Thanks for the read. One misleading line caught my attention though. In the first paragraph it mentions people with ARDS "would not have died otherwise" had they received respiratory support. ARDS, from any cause, results in a very high mortality rate, something like %40 if I remember correctly. And thats with excellent care, and the latest and greatest in mechanical ventilation.
I know this because treating people with ARDS is a regular part of my day job in the medical field.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 15, 2020 17:29:06 GMT -6
What is extremely sobering is Italy recorded 368 COVID-19 related deaths over the previous 24 hours.
Currently the rate is doubling approximately every four days.
If the rate does not change by the end of April approx 20,000 will die in a single 24 hour period. Then more than 20,000 in the next 24 hours and so on. AND this is ONLY within Italy.
At some point the rate will slow as the most vunerable will have already died.
This is literally a Tsunami that will engulf much of society if not quickly slowed by extreme and immediate social change.
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 15, 2020 18:49:25 GMT -6
Thanks for the read. One misleading line caught my attention though. In the first paragraph it mentions people with ARDS "would not have died otherwise" had they received respiratory support. ARDS, from any cause, results in a very high mortality rate, something like %40 if I remember correctly. And thats with excellent care, and the latest and greatest in mechanical ventilation. I know this because treating people with ARDS is a regular part of my day job in the medical field. I think what they are saying is that in spite of comorbidities their cause of death was ARDS from COVID19, so that absent the virus they would not have died.
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 15, 2020 18:55:17 GMT -6
What is extremely sobering is Italy recorded 368 COVID-19 related deaths over the previous 24 hours. Currently the rate is doubling approximately every four days. If the rate does not change by the end of April approx 20,000 will die in a single 24 hour period. Then more than 20,000 in the next 24 hours and so on. AND this is ONLY within Italy. At some point the rate will slow as the most vunerable will have already died. This is literally a Tsunami that will engulf much of society if not quickly slowed by extreme and immediate social change. That’s unlikely to happen. The growth rate will roll over in a few days due to the quarantine actions combined with the simple that that eventually many people will already have recovered and will no longer be able to spread the disease. 20,000 daily deaths would require some 2 million daily new infections. That’s simply not going to happen in Italy. You don’t need to worry about that.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 15, 2020 19:28:17 GMT -6
What is extremely sobering is Italy recorded 368 COVID-19 related deaths over the previous 24 hours. Currently the rate is doubling approximately every four days. If the rate does not change by the end of April approx 20,000 will die in a single 24 hour period. Then more than 20,000 in the next 24 hours and so on. AND this is ONLY within Italy. At some point the rate will slow as the most vunerable will have already died. This is literally a Tsunami that will engulf much of society if not quickly slowed by extreme and immediate social change. That’s unlikely to happen. The growth rate will roll over in a few days due to the quarantine actions combined with the simple that that eventually many people will already have recovered and will no longer be able to spread the disease. 20,000 daily deaths would require some 2 million daily new infections. That’s simply not going to happen in Italy. You don’t need to worry about that. There are still far more undiagnosed cases than diagnosed cases out there. The effect of the lockdown will start kicking in but it will likely be some two weeks from the time the lockdown began before the spread begins to slow plus an additional two weeks for the figures start to indicate that it really has. It appears that by two weeks you are either recovering, in need of critical hospitalisation or have died. Had the lockdown started even one week earlier it would have made a substantial difference. Italy is a warning to us all. We need to heed it and quickly.
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 15, 2020 20:00:42 GMT -6
Thanks for the read. One misleading line caught my attention though. In the first paragraph it mentions people with ARDS "would not have died otherwise" had they received respiratory support. ARDS, from any cause, results in a very high mortality rate, something like %40 if I remember correctly. And thats with excellent care, and the latest and greatest in mechanical ventilation. I know this because treating people with ARDS is a regular part of my day job in the medical field. I think what they are saying is that in spite of comorbidities their cause of death was ARDS from COVID19, so that absent the virus they would not have died. That make way more sense, I had a sense it was a semantic thing.
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 16, 2020 7:51:57 GMT -6
I agree there are many undiagnosed cases but that’s ok, because the vast majority are minor. I’m just saying exponential growth isn’t really accurate - it’s a logistic curve. It starts exponential, then rolls into a log / asymptotic curve as the rate slows.
We won’t get to 20k deaths a day in Italy. It’s not really mathematically possible.
Doesn’t detract from the severity of what’s going on there right now at all. But let’s not spread huge numbers. That will only freak people out.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 16, 2020 8:20:38 GMT -6
BBC quoting WHO today suggests 14% severe symptoms (includes difficulty breathing) and 6% critical symptoms. 20% seems pretty alarming. Possible pneumonia is included in the remaining 80%. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51048366
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 16, 2020 9:09:20 GMT -6
Yes that comes from the large JAMA study out of China. It is about the only large sample info we have to go by. jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762130An epidemiologist / infectious disease physician in Dallas that I know through my university alumni network has said nearly every single case presents with at least some pneumonia (even maybe sub-clinical). But don't necessarily be alarmed. Consider that the median age in China is 37, the median age of observed cases was 47, and the median age of severe cases was 51. So this whole thing is skewed disproportionately toward the older cohort. The best thing to do is for those folks at risk to be careful and reverse isolate as best as they can -- have visitors remove shoes, wash hands, change clothes, etc. I have been following this very closely since January for my job and have read just about everything I can find on it. Lucky enough to have access to some really smart, informed people. If you have questions I will try to answer, and I will do my best to source the answers with links to reputable sources - NOT rumors, NOT twitter.
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 16, 2020 11:34:44 GMT -6
Italy reported fewer new cases today than yesterday. Hopefully they're off the exponential growth half of the logistic curve and onto the log side. May not hold as a trend, but let's cross our fingers.
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Post by ragan on Mar 16, 2020 12:27:30 GMT -6
Watching urgent pleas for people to take this seriously and stay home from overworked, life-risking medical workers here in Seattle. Two docs who've been treating COVID-19 patients have contracted it and are in critical condition right now, one of them being in this area (a guy in his 40s). When our governor put a ban on gatherings of 250+ people, his opponent in the governor’s race asked for “251 patriots” to gather together somewhere public and drink Coronas. That’ll show ‘em.
We live in a gross time.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 16, 2020 13:52:29 GMT -6
Italy reported fewer new cases today than yesterday. Hopefully they're off the exponential growth half of the logistic curve and onto the log side. May not hold as a trend, but let's cross our fingers. Scotland looks today at least looks like a slower day-on growth.
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