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Post by mrholmes on Mar 13, 2020 18:04:25 GMT -6
The global infection rate for COVID-19 is predicted between 40-70%. Angela Merkel has stated up to 70% of Germany's population is likely to get it.
If 50% of the global population get it that is around 3.75 Billion. If the mortality rate is say 3.5% then that's around 135 Million deaths.
The current Italian morbidity rate is around 6% mainly because of the combination of age and overwhelmed hospitals unable to provide essential care for all critical patients.
Without medical intervention expect the morbidity rate to climb to over 10%.
This will likely be the norm for poor countries with non existant or under resourced healthcare systems and even First World healthcare systems that have collapsed under sheer numbers.
Now add to that deaths of indirectly related causes (coronary, cancer, other diseases etc) which are due to overburdened hospitals and ER depts that are completely overwhelmed by COVID-19 and have no capacity left.
Add to that a breakdown in supply chains, food shortages and civil unrest, war even? We are now looking at a potential death rates of well over 10%. - 15%? 20%? Who knows. Even a morbidity rate of 10% equates to 375 Million based on a 50% global infection rate which to put into context is greater than the entire population of the United States.
I may sound like the Grim Reaper but this is just the math and it's no time to be complacent.
The mortality rate is always high at the beginning because the number of all infected people is too small in the beginning. From china, we know it's in the end about 0,5%.
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 13, 2020 18:19:06 GMT -6
Forgive, but please do not encourage complacency.
That 40-70% will get it eventually is probably true.
The final mortality will depend on how quickly that happens. The slower the better. It keeps the healthcare system from being overrun and gives us time to develop treatment regimes and herd immunity!
We do not want a Spanish flu type of even with 2-3% case fatality rate.
7.7 billion people times 70% and 0.5% CFR is 27 million dead. I know it can be managed less than that.
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Post by ragan on Mar 13, 2020 18:30:21 GMT -6
My father is an MD 30+ years experience. It is a sad thing that journalists reproduce incorrect quotes from research. In the end, someone is not entirely off - WRONG NEWS and sometimes FAKE NEWS. I don't understand the hysteria. Like any new virus this will last for about 5 years till 70% have been influenced. And like with any other influenza most people will not die. I like numbers.... gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6To me its more a problem of modern media than anything else. It's time to calm down the voices. It's time to ask people who know research in and out. The “people who know research in and out” are the ones ringing the alarm bells.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 14, 2020 1:11:12 GMT -6
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 14, 2020 5:47:30 GMT -6
My father is an MD 30+ years experience. It is a sad thing that journalists reproduce incorrect quotes from research. In the end, someone is not entirely off - WRONG NEWS and sometimes FAKE NEWS. I don't understand the hysteria. Like any new virus this will last for about 5 years till 70% have been influenced. And like with any other influenza most people will not die. I like numbers.... gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6To me its more a problem of modern media than anything else. It's time to calm down the voices. It's time to ask people who know research in and out. The “people who know research in and out” are the ones ringing the alarm bells.
No that's a distortion of perception all the people who know research in and out stay calm and speak about facts.
Then media and press comes and makes out of facts alarm bells.
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Post by ragan on Mar 14, 2020 8:45:58 GMT -6
The “people who know research in and out” are the ones ringing the alarm bells.
No that's a distortion of perception all the people who know research in and out stay calm and speak about facts.
Then media and press comes and makes out of facts alarm bells.
No, it isn’t. I’ve listened to epidemiologist after epidemiologist (calmly) lay out the detailed, data-based reasons this is a big deal. I don’t consume sensationalist media.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 14, 2020 10:42:49 GMT -6
I mean, sure, it's gonna be fine. Later. Probably.
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 14, 2020 10:54:57 GMT -6
I mean, sure, it's gonna be fine. Later. Probably. Nah it’s gonna be fine. If you look at Lombardy region they have over 850 official cases per million people. That’s what makes it dangerous, the concentrated surge on healthcare systems. I am extremely critical of the CDC handling of the test kits. They had one job and they failed. I also think the government did a bad job in a social media age of getting the word out. “Flatten the curve” and #flattenthecurve should have been a thing since February 1. Then when it was time to implement strict isolation actions it would have been a question of “when” not “why”. But that being said I have been very pleased with the speed that we moved once community spread was identified. We are doing well. I am cautiously optimistic that we in the US will avoid a Lombardy type situation. The only place I’m really concerned about is Washington state / Seattle. I am very concerned for my friends and coworkers in Switzerland, Spain, and France.
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Post by ragan on Mar 14, 2020 11:40:21 GMT -6
Re: gov response, refusing test kits offered early by the WHO and bellowing from crowded campaign rallies that it’s “a hoax” and that “in a couple of days there will be close to zero cases” is certainly not an effective strategy, to put it extremely charitably.
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Post by dmo on Mar 14, 2020 13:56:38 GMT -6
Has the media overblown this some - absolutely - and I agree we need to avoid hysteria in our response. BUt it is now a pandemic with no current effective treatment beyond supportive care which will significantly stress medical resources. Few weeks ago I was enjoying being semi-retired and wiring up the console - now I'm back to practicing Emergency Medicine full time in the Seattle area and my return to music is once again on the back burner for a while. Practice good personal hygiene, stay home if mildly ill and follow reputable sources like CDC for guidance as our response continues to evolve. Be appropriately cautious if in higher risk groups ( says the over 65yo doc working the ER) - but life goes on. To quote Hill Street Blues - "Lets be careful out there"
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 14, 2020 14:17:08 GMT -6
Re: gov response, refusing test kits offered early by the WHO and bellowing from crowded campaign rallies that it’s “a hoax” and that “in a couple of days there will be close to zero cases” is certainly not an effective strategy, to put it extremely charitably. Know I love you dude but that whole hoax thing is totally and completely out of context. The only thing more frustrating for me than the lead-footed test kit rollout is the partisan spin on both sides...BOTH SIDES. Rush and Hannity acting like this is a Democrat ploy is just as bad as the junk coming from the left. They can’t give it a rest for a minute even when it’s serious. Gets old.
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 14, 2020 14:24:15 GMT -6
Some of you may have seen my posts in the other thread, but from my perspective, as a front line hospital worker the response on a macro level has been...uh...strange to say the least. I feel like the CDC has done a shit job of handling this. The creation of guidelines, both for community and medical response, the dissemination of information...all of it, has been poor. At least on my end. The guidelines we get change, day by day, sometimes hour by hour. What are we supposed to do with that? Pandemic out breaks are not new. The CDC knows (supposedly) how to handle these situations. But it feels like they're tripping over themselves trying to create solutions. Ever heard the phrase "the faster you go, the slower you get"? Because that describes the situation in many ways. It was like the common sense shit that should've been done at the beginning (rigorous screening of travelers from Asia, focused travel restrictions, psa's about public hygiene, hand washing etc) was dropped and now everyone is playing catch up, which is contributing to a certain sense of panic.
I don't follow the media much, so I'm pretty in the dark when it comes to response from this presidential administration, etc etc. But is sound as if they did a shit job too.
I've spent a lot of time on the phone with friends and relatives, trying to calm nerves. It's important to use common sense, wash your hands, practice good hygiene, avoid certain public situations and be diligent with self care and self screening. But also, don't panic, don't horde toilet paper, be reasonable. This virus won't cripple our infrastructure...stupid people on the other hand...well who knows.
I've been in a lot of emergency situations. It's part of my day job in the hospital. I've been in situations where I'm responsible for critical roles, and if I fuck up people can die. There's a certain speed and calmness you need to navigate with in that type of situation. You DO NOT rush, you don't go as fast as you CAN. You operate at a quick, deliberate pace. The danger is in going too quick, not too slow. Better to make wise, critical decisions at a slower pace than to rush (which leads to critical mistakes). That's how it works on the micro level, and that's how it how it should have been handled on the macro with the CDC etc. On the front lines it feels like their response was very haphazard.
That being said, the on-the-ground response from healthcare workers has been one of an over abundance of caution. We will continue to get better and more efficient at treating this. The challenges to the healthcare system are real, but are being sorted out.
And here's some good, anecdotal, things we're finding. The virus doesn't seem to really be effecting pediatric patients, infants, or neonates (not sure about older teenagers). I'm hoping that stays true. Also, we're not seeing cases of people infected with Both influenza AND COVID. The two viruses don't seem to cohort well together. That's a huge relief as well.
Anyway, rant over.
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 14, 2020 14:51:15 GMT -6
I agree. I have no idea how this isn’t something you have well planned..continuously planned and improved. I mean isn’t this precisely what the CDC is for? It’s totally baffling that they could be caught this flat footed.
And what you’re saying reminds me of a saying in the Navy. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast!
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Post by dmo on Mar 14, 2020 14:58:29 GMT -6
Slightly off topic - day off so I thought I'd relax, run signal through board - all distorted (fine 2 days ago). Had a brief power outage last night, board on surge protector turned off but not unplugged - now have multiple bus sends not working or overloading - guess I'm in for some troubleshooting after Covid 19 dies down. 😡
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 14, 2020 15:07:12 GMT -6
It’s infecting our audio gear now??! 😡🤬
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 14, 2020 15:16:55 GMT -6
The only thing more frustrating for me than the lead-footed test kit rollout is the partisan spin on both sides...BOTH SIDES. Rush and Hannity acting like this is a Democrat ploy is just as bad as the junk coming from the left. They can’t give it a rest for a minute even when it’s serious. Gets old. No. It's worse. MUCH worse. The bilge and poor decision making emanating from Washington is the primary reason that things are goinmg out of control.
The decision not to accept test kits from outside sources has to be one of the most boneheaded moves in recent history.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 14, 2020 15:19:23 GMT -6
I agree. I have no idea how this isn’t something you have well planned..continuously planned and improved. I mean isn’t this precisely what the CDC is for? It’s totally baffling that they could be caught this flat footed. Baffling?
Not in the least - they've had their funding cut to the bone and that bone ground up for fertilizer.
It's not baffling at all - it's inevitable.
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Post by ragan on Mar 14, 2020 15:21:33 GMT -6
Re: gov response, refusing test kits offered early by the WHO and bellowing from crowded campaign rallies that it’s “a hoax” and that “in a couple of days there will be close to zero cases” is certainly not an effective strategy, to put it extremely charitably. Know I love you dude but that whole hoax thing is totally and completely out of context. The only thing more frustrating for me than the lead-footed test kit rollout is the partisan spin on both sides...BOTH SIDES. Rush and Hannity acting like this is a Democrat ploy is just as bad as the junk coming from the left. They can’t give it a rest for a minute even when it’s serious. Gets old. I certainly agree that neither side has a monopoly on lame, partisan tribalism and yes, there were some characterizations from the left that were unfair. But that's what he was tossing out to the base at the rally, the hoax idea. I listened to it unedited. You could make a case that he's kind of connecting the criticism of his administration's handling of it as the 'hoax' more than the outbreak itself but it's left strategically vague. And for my part, when someone is in the middle of actively mischaracterizing (the charitable word for it) numbers and various other other aspects of something, it's pretty hard to give them the benefit of the doubt when they try to ride the line on inflammatory accusations. Whichever way you choose to interpret it though, it's the same play out of the same playbook as always, ie, this makes me look bad therefore it's a hoax. It's neither here nor there for the most part. It's not the cause of any of this, just something that makes it needlessly worse. An outbreak like this doesn't care about demagogic bullshittery regardless of what side it's coming from. If I had my way, I'd have leadership mostly keep their mouths shut other than to say 'listen to the proven experts and do what they recommend'.
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 14, 2020 15:39:03 GMT -6
I agree. I have no idea how this isn’t something you have well planned..continuously planned and improved. I mean isn’t this precisely what the CDC is for? It’s totally baffling that they could be caught this flat footed. Baffling?
Not in the least - they've had their funding cut to the bone and that bone ground up for fertilizer.
It's not baffling at all - it's inevitable.
See what I mean? This is 100% false, partisan bullcrap. The administration proposed cuts in 2021 which never were put into effect. And funding for the CDC has increased steadily over the past few years. And I don’t mean you John. I mean the partisan gotcha hyperventilating people in the media and on twitter that spread this kind of intentional disinformation. It’s unseemly right now. Opportunistic and ridiculous. Let’s pause the red/blue game. We can all just be Americans right now and get back to perpetual campaigning after this.
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Post by ragan on Mar 14, 2020 15:52:21 GMT -6
Baffling?
Not in the least - they've had their funding cut to the bone and that bone ground up for fertilizer.
It's not baffling at all - it's inevitable.
See what I mean? This is 100% false, partisan bullcrap. The administration proposed cuts in 2021 which never were put into effect. And funding for the CDC has increased steadily over the past few years. And I don’t mean you John. I mean the partisan gotcha hyperventilating people in the media and on twitter that spread this kind of intentional disinformation. It’s unseemly right now. Opportunistic and ridiculous. Let’s pause the red/blue game. We can all just be Americans right now and get back to perpetual campaigning after this. He may be confusing the CDC with the Pandemic Response Team, which this administration disbanded in 2018. The CDC was slated to have an ~80% cut in global disease outbreak prevention money but that isn't directly attributable to this administration, the money was just running out. Congress allocated more so those cuts never happened. The Pandemic Response Team being axed did happen.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 14, 2020 15:53:14 GMT -6
Baffling?
Not in the least - they've had their funding cut to the bone and that bone ground up for fertilizer.
It's not baffling at all - it's inevitable.
See what I mean? This is 100% false, partisan bullcrap. The administration proposed cuts in 2021 which never were put into effect. And funding for the CDC has increased steadily over the past few years. And I don’t mean you John. I mean the partisan gotcha hyperventilating people in the media and on twitter that spread this kind of intentional disinformation. It’s unseemly right now. Opportunistic and ridiculous. Let’s pause the red/blue game. We can all just be Americans right now and get back to perpetual campaigning after this. The problem actually is that McConnell has been blocking funding in the Senate. He has a backlog of hundreds of bills, may of them key (and normally routine) bills for funding basic services that he refuses to allow to the Senate Floor. It's why he calls himself "the Grim Reaper". Well the handle couldn't be more apt right now.
However, as they say, "The truth will out." It's too bad that so many have to suffer for it.
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 14, 2020 16:09:12 GMT -6
Yup this virus is all Mitch McConnel’s fault. Should have known better than to even say anything. I am truly sorry I did, I won’t be talking about it any more.
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Post by ragan on Mar 14, 2020 16:38:22 GMT -6
I should say I’m all for leaving partisan politics out of this. It’s difficult when so many political realities are inextricably tied into it. But I have no interest in political tribalism, here or anywhere else. I think the facts speak for themselves. Other people see it differently.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 14, 2020 16:56:53 GMT -6
See what I mean? This is 100% false, partisan bullcrap. The administration proposed cuts in 2021 which never were put into effect. And funding for the CDC has increased steadily over the past few years. And I don’t mean you John. I mean the partisan gotcha hyperventilating people in the media and on twitter that spread this kind of intentional disinformation. It’s unseemly right now. Opportunistic and ridiculous. Let’s pause the red/blue game. We can all just be Americans right now and get back to perpetual campaigning after this. The problem actually is that McConnell has been blocking funding in the Senate. He has a backlog of hundreds of bills, may of them key (and normally routine) bills for funding basic services that he refuses to allow to the Senate Floor. It's why he calls himself "the Grim Reaper". Well the handle couldn't be more apt right now.
However, as they say, "The truth will out." It's too bad that so many have to suffer for it.
I didn't realise that McConnell called the shots in Northern Italy as well as the US and is about to ensure that Europe is decimated as well. He must be a busy guy!
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Post by dmo on Mar 14, 2020 17:30:52 GMT -6
We haven't handled this well, that is true. Hopefully we'll learn from our mistakes - but for now all we can do is work together and be kind to one another. This is going to impact all of us in one way or another. Shared this already on FB - a short quick read from another EM doc - take a minute if you can. Bottom line - we are all in this together, and together we can/will get through this.
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