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Post by mrholmes on Jan 1, 2020 5:19:25 GMT -6
I was considering the WA-47 Microphone... Poked around the internet and it seems like the company is getting quite a bad reputation for their work environment. Kinda makes me not want to purchase their gear. Anyone know if the claims are substantiated? It’s made in China to a price point, Bryce has never tried to hide that fact and honestly any other clones at the same price point are as well. A lot of this has to do with unrealistic expectations based on hype feeding hype rather than people grounded in reality.
The whole China production thing is not based on realty, its based on greed on both sides (producer and consumer).
A great example is the iPhone. They could produce it in the USA, but Apple would make lesser money.
The realty is that in a lot of businesses wages -in western- countries went down, or they are equal compared to 20-30 years ago. If you do not want to buy Chinese it's a matter of fact that you may, can't afford it. Why, the well paid jobs went to China.
For example here in Germany:
The people at ME-Geithain told me that they do not want to buy Chinese parts for their monitors, but no way. It starts with the mounting basket for the membrane, the material is no longer licensed in the EU but in China. Problem no substitute worked.
Chasing the tail:
If we buy Chinese produced goods we need to keep mind:
1. They are cheap because wages and loans are at a minimum in China.
2.
The working conditions are often inhumane, or not up to western standards.
3.
They still have poor environmental laws in China.
In other words they put the rest lacquer in the groundwater. Pollution is a big problem in China.
To make a long story short.
The global economic system is based on wrong assumptions. A good example for the globalization insanity is the Netflix Documentary "American Factory"
We can produce in western countries, but we have to produce on a higher quality level otherwise we can't demand higher prices.
What we do, special in music goods industry, we often show the Chinese factories Know How, in trade for a good contract. I have seen it many times with Chinese made guitars. Are these guitars good, sometimes yes... The thing is, they are getting better and better.
A dangerous route, because we give away the heartbeat of a craft.
That we can be better shows the German Automotive business.
They produce on a high level and can demand higher prices, and they are still world leader.
I never worked in the audio gear business, but still believe that high quality goods lead into longer seller customer relationship. People are more happy to buy something new, or to sell and re buy a new invention/generation.
The future is the question of how we can produce environmental friendly goods.
I am pretty sure ten years from now this is a competitive advantage.
Happy 2020...
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Post by drbill on Jan 1, 2020 11:14:31 GMT -6
It’s made in China to a price point, Bryce has never tried to hide that fact and honestly any other clones at the same price point are as well. A lot of this has to do with unrealistic expectations based on hype feeding hype rather than people grounded in reality.
The realty is that in a lot of businesses wages -in western- countries went down, or they are equal compared to 20-30 years ago.
<snip> Happy 2020...
I watched a bit of the Flint Town show on Netflix. It's all about Flint Michigan - mostly from the law enforcement perspective. Once upon a time, in 1980, they had a median income of $84,000 per household - the second highest Median income in the WORLD. (of note, that would be a median income of roughly $250,000 today.). Jump forward to 2016 - Median income of $24,000. Huge poverty, INTENSE crime, more vacant houses than houses with people living in them, the entire water system is ruined with toxic lead - leaving everyone in the city poisoned to one degree or another, corruption, greed, impoverished to the point of making third world countries look luxurious, murder so common that people barely think about it, consistently in the top 10 crime ridden and violent cities. Why? Well....primarily because of GM outsourcing to China in an effort to evade paying union wages. And as you mentioned, the materialism of society. No, it's not that simple, but it's the main factor. Corporate greed and public materialism feed each other in a voracious feedback loop. They go hand in hand together. Most notably hitting our industry (music) with the corporate greed of the Discovery Channel deciding not to pay performance royalties even though the music they had contracted deserves it. Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse. Embrace this philosophy of more, more, more for cheaper, cheaper, cheaper and go for that cheap SSL, and watch that Flint Michigan syndrome come home to roost in a city near you. 20 years is going to completely change the face of America. And not for the better.
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Post by ragan on Jan 1, 2020 12:07:40 GMT -6
The realty is that in a lot of businesses wages -in western- countries went down, or they are equal compared to 20-30 years ago.
<snip> Happy 2020...
I watched a bit of the Flint Town show on Netflix. It's all about Flint Michigan - mostly from the law enforcement perspective. Once upon a time, in 1980, they had a median income of $84,000 per household - the second highest Median income in the WORLD. (of note, that would be a median income of roughly $250,000 today.). Jump forward to 2016 - Median income of $24,000. Huge poverty, INTENSE crime, more vacant houses than houses with people living in them, the entire water system is ruined with toxic lead - leaving everyone in the city poisoned to one degree or another, corruption, greed, impoverished to the point of making third world countries look luxurious, murder so common that people barely think about it, consistently in the top 10 crime ridden and violent cities. Why? Well....primarily because of GM outsourcing to China in an effort to evade paying union wages. And as you mentioned, the materialism of society. No, it's not that simple, but it's the main factor. Corporate greed and public materialism feed each other in a voracious feedback loop. They go hand in hand together. Most notably hitting our industry (music) with the corporate greed of the Discovery Channel deciding not to pay performance royalties even though the music they had contracted deserves it. Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse. Embrace this philosophy of more, more, more for cheaper, cheaper, cheaper and go for that cheap SSL, and watch that Flint Michigan syndrome come home to roost in a city near you. 20 years is going to completely change the face of America. And not for the better. I don't disagree with the general thrust of this but it's worth noting that, in 1980 or today, audio equipment manufacturing is a tiny sliver of the economy and automotive production is a massive slice (be it here or overseas). No one is going to have much impact on anything (positive or negative) with their audio gear choices. It's a different question altogether of course as to whether one should be philosophically consistent regardless of any 'impact'.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 1, 2020 12:26:26 GMT -6
The realty is that in a lot of businesses wages -in western- countries went down, or they are equal compared to 20-30 years ago.
<snip> Happy 2020...
I watched a bit of the Flint Town show on Netflix. It's all about Flint Michigan - mostly from the law enforcement perspective. Once upon a time, in 1980, they had a median income of $84,000 per household - the second highest Median income in the WORLD. (of note, that would be a median income of roughly $250,000 today.). Jump forward to 2016 - Median income of $24,000. Huge poverty, INTENSE crime, more vacant houses than houses with people living in them, the entire water system is ruined with toxic lead - leaving everyone in the city poisoned to one degree or another, corruption, greed, impoverished to the point of making third world countries look luxurious, murder so common that people barely think about it, consistently in the top 10 crime ridden and violent cities. Why? Well....primarily because of GM outsourcing to China in an effort to evade paying union wages. And as you mentioned, the materialism of society. No, it's not that simple, but it's the main factor. Corporate greed and public materialism feed each other in a voracious feedback loop. They go hand in hand together. Most notably hitting our industry (music) with the corporate greed of the Discovery Channel deciding not to pay performance royalties even though the music they had contracted deserves it. Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse. Embrace this philosophy of more, more, more for cheaper, cheaper, cheaper and go for that cheap SSL, and watch that Flint Michigan syndrome come home to roost in a city near you. 20 years is going to completely change the face of America. And not for the better.
I have to remember the term "feedback loop".
IMO most of this is driven by totally wrong assumptions like the so called "trickle down effect" which is not based on economic science, it's a term created by rich people - out of the blue. I know that globalization helps poor countries, but I doubt that it is sustainable. I am pretty sure it destroys Jobs in western countries, and it won't stop for the future.
We already can hear Springsteen sing about it in 85.
"Foreman says these jobs are going boys, and they ain't coming back " My Hometown.
Destroying the middle class stated earlier in western countries.
Don't agree with everything, but it sums it up.
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Post by m03 on Jan 1, 2020 13:39:15 GMT -6
The realty is that in a lot of businesses wages -in western- countries went down, or they are equal compared to 20-30 years ago.
<snip> Happy 2020...
Why? Well....primarily because of GM outsourcing to China in an effort to evade paying union wages. At the time (circa late 1970s through the early 1990s), they were also facing rapid market changes after the oil crisis; a drop in sales across the industry due to an economic slump; growing competition from Japanese manufacturers who were able to churn out objectively better, more consistent, and more reliable products at a much lower cost; and the adoption of the Toyota Production System/Just In Time/Lean style practices by their competition (which was destined to reduce costs and redundant staff across the industry, which would make them uncompetitive if they didn't respond in kind). The reduction of highly paid union jobs was an inevitability, either through efforts to remain competitive, or going out of business entirely. Plenty of their failings can be saddled on incompetent management as well, but the need for so much headcount at such high prices could equally be attributed to poor management choices. Also AFAIK, their outsourced suppliers were mostly based in the US, Canada, and Mexico early on. I don't think Chinese manufacturing of GM parts in any impactful quantity occurred until much later.
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Post by drbill on Jan 1, 2020 15:04:04 GMT -6
I watched a bit of the Flint Town show on Netflix. It's all about Flint Michigan - mostly from the law enforcement perspective. Once upon a time, in 1980, they had a median income of $84,000 per household - the second highest Median income in the WORLD. (of note, that would be a median income of roughly $250,000 today.). Jump forward to 2016 - Median income of $24,000. Huge poverty, INTENSE crime, more vacant houses than houses with people living in them, the entire water system is ruined with toxic lead - leaving everyone in the city poisoned to one degree or another, corruption, greed, impoverished to the point of making third world countries look luxurious, murder so common that people barely think about it, consistently in the top 10 crime ridden and violent cities. Why? Well....primarily because of GM outsourcing to China in an effort to evade paying union wages. And as you mentioned, the materialism of society. No, it's not that simple, but it's the main factor. Corporate greed and public materialism feed each other in a voracious feedback loop. They go hand in hand together. Most notably hitting our industry (music) with the corporate greed of the Discovery Channel deciding not to pay performance royalties even though the music they had contracted deserves it. Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse. Embrace this philosophy of more, more, more for cheaper, cheaper, cheaper and go for that cheap SSL, and watch that Flint Michigan syndrome come home to roost in a city near you. 20 years is going to completely change the face of America. And not for the better. I don't disagree with the general thrust of this but it's worth noting that, in 1980 or today, audio equipment manufacturing is a tiny sliver of the economy and automotive production is a massive slice (be it here or overseas). No one is going to have much impact on anything (positive or negative) with their audio gear choices. It's a different question altogether of course as to whether one should be philosophically consistent regardless of any 'impact'. No doubt. But it's the world I live in. And the first step of any journey is a small one, and a commitment to move in a particular direction.
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Post by drbill on Jan 1, 2020 15:10:01 GMT -6
Why? Well....primarily because of GM outsourcing to China in an effort to evade paying union wages. At the time (circa late 1970s through the early 1990s), they were also facing rapid market changes after the oil crisis; a drop in sales across the industry due to an economic slump; growing competition from Japanese manufacturers who were able to churn out objectively better, more consistent, and more reliable products at a much lower cost; and the adoption of the Toyota Production System/Just In Time/Lean style practices by their competition (which was destined to reduce costs and redundant staff across the industry, which would make them uncompetitive if they didn't respond in kind). The reduction of highly paid union jobs was an inevitability, either through efforts to remain competitive, or going out of business entirely. Plenty of their failings can be saddled on incompetent management as well, but the need for so much headcount at such high prices could equally be attributed to poor management choices. Also AFAIK, their outsourced suppliers were mostly based in the US, Canada, and Mexico early on. I don't think Chinese manufacturing of GM parts in any impactful quantity occurred until much later. yup. All totally valid observations. Rather than mention "china" specifically, it would have been better said - outsourced "overseas" which is a bit of a misnomer itself. Bottom line is the bottom line though, and there's no arguing with the final outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 15:26:38 GMT -6
Just to come back to the topic, as interesting as I find the discussion about how the industrialization of China, India, Indonesia, parts of Africa etc. will change our world undoubtly and irreversibly, ...
If I am right, the outcome right now is, that there were no reliable hints, links, pics etc. been posted to justify the assumption that there is something really wrong with the work environment at Warm Audio? I think we have to be fair and don't let such claims standing here (uncommented), maybe damaging a biz's reputation, just from hearsay...?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 1, 2020 16:10:06 GMT -6
I agree completely and think unless substantiated by Op, thread should be deleted.
May not have been Op ‘s intention but in a way thread is a vehicle to implicitly damage the reputation of a company based on what exactly ?
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Post by chessparov on Jan 1, 2020 16:29:58 GMT -6
Well since I think very highly of those like you, and Jacob... That might be the wisest course. Maybe at least "locking it". John K's (Or "Small But Fine's) judgement is certainly better than mine! These kinds of threads can easily escalate, and I've really had (more than enough) of that over at a "certain other place" . Especially between intelligent (and valued) members. Chris
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 1, 2020 18:10:42 GMT -6
Why? Well....primarily because of GM outsourcing to China in an effort to evade paying union wages. At the time (circa late 1970s through the early 1990s), they were also facing rapid market changes after the oil crisis; a drop in sales across the industry due to an economic slump; growing competition from Japanese manufacturers who were able to churn out objectively better, more consistent, and more reliable products at a much lower cost; and the adoption of the Toyota Production System/Just In Time/Lean style practices by their competition (which was destined to reduce costs and redundant staff across the industry, which would make them uncompetitive if they didn't respond in kind). The reduction of highly paid union jobs was an inevitability, either through efforts to remain competitive, or going out of business entirely. Plenty of their failings can be saddled on incompetent management as well, but the need for so much headcount at such high prices could equally be attributed to poor management choices. Also AFAIK, their outsourced suppliers were mostly based in the US, Canada, and Mexico early on. I don't think Chinese manufacturing of GM parts in any impactful quantity occurred until much later. The concept often lost in all of this is that the US industrial economy was originally based on being the home of cheap labor compared to England. The general fall of the great Western manufacturing machine has been greed on the part of everyone; Corporations, unions and the workers, their are no innocent parties here. Globalization per se isn’t bad, we all must coexist and we have always seen the emergence of new economies, granted at one time it was via colonization. The problem we face today is the extreme concentration of wealth in the hands of a very few and even more importantly the control of wealth by a very few. Think about it, who has control of your wealth? If it’s in the bank it’s the bank and there are fewer larger banks than ever, do you have any control of those large funds? Stocks, I’m guessing none of us is the majority share holder in any publicly traded companies. What can we do ? Not much as individuals, but maybe, if we figure out how to organize , think and act in a less “me” centered way and rediscover the concept of public good we can get beyond all this.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 1, 2020 18:12:37 GMT -6
Just to come back to the topic, as interesting as I find the discussion about how the industrialization of China, India, Indonesia, parts of Africa etc. will change our world undoubtly and irreversibly, ... If I am right, the outcome right now is, that there were no reliable hints, links, pics etc. been posted to justify the assumption that there is something really wrong with the work environment at Warm Audio? I think we have to be fair and don't let such claims standing here (uncommented), maybe damaging a biz's reputation, just from hearsay...? This is the internet in 2020 we don’t need no stink’en evidence damn it!
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jan 1, 2020 18:13:03 GMT -6
I agree completely and think unless substantiated by Op, thread should be deleted. May not have been Op ‘s intention but in a way thread is a vehicle to implicitly damage the reputation of a company based on what exactly ? Should I copy and paste the stuff I found with a quick Google search? That was what I was trying to avoid, in case the negative comments are totally just a few disgruntled employees who happen to be consistent in the claims. Didn’t want to have them pop up in even more places if they aren’t valid or are a weird isolated situation. Totally ok with this thread being locked or deleted or whatever too. As I mentioned awhile back before this thread turned into a conversation about outsourcing jobs, I was hoping to get some perspective on the negative claims I found.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 1, 2020 18:29:43 GMT -6
No Jacob, I think it would be preferable to avoid the "copy and paste thing", in any event. Assuming any of those things really did happen, again I hope all will be resolved (as well as possible) soon. FWIW most psychological therapists agree, that it is usually better, for the "first parties" involved to (hopefully) discuss issues directly with each other, not 3rd hand. Otherwise things can really mushroom out of hand. OK, off my soapbox! Chris
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 1, 2020 18:30:27 GMT -6
Personally, I am not comfortable with this whole premise as it really isn’t about discussing gear or recording or even music, which are I think the premises of this site, Johnkenn may correct me.
Getting into the minutia of how any company is managed with only disgruntled employees seems highly questionable to me.
We have had very specific conversations with Josh about Stam but he has chosen to have those conversations with us, mostly stemming from production and communication issues which he as senior executive is responsible for.
I frankly wish you had just taken your own counsel in this, if it is so legitimate and important to you and I say that respectfully to you.
I mhave never met Bryce but have close to 10 years of nothing but professional, helpful and concerned service from him and from Warm. I feel like you are stabbing someone I care about in the back and that RGO is not the place for that and I don’t want to know where is.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 1, 2020 18:36:17 GMT -6
I agree completely and think unless substantiated by Op, thread should be deleted. May not have been Op ‘s intention but in a way thread is a vehicle to implicitly damage the reputation of a company based on what exactly ? Should I copy and paste the stuff I found with a quick Google search? That was what I was trying to avoid, in case the negative comments are totally just a few disgruntled employees who happen to be consistent in the claims. Didn’t want to have them pop up in even more places if they aren’t valid or are a weird isolated situation. Totally ok with this thread being locked or deleted or whatever too. As I mentioned awhile back before this thread turned into a conversation about outsourcing jobs, I was hoping to get some perspective on the negative claims I found. On a Quick Google AEA I found a bad review with zero specifics on Glassdoor. Now I always take these things with a grain of salt unless I was there. In the past a former coworker who worked 15 feet away from me went on a nationally syndicated TV program and spun reality into stories of a horrible toxic work place that just didn’t exist. The funny thing was this behavior, that she imagined most of which would have been sexist and inappropriate would have occurred in view of the Windows of our female CEO’s office and our customers. There are channels for dealing with work place issues, OSHA, Dept of labor and of course the courts. Trouble is when the consensus opinion of the experts is “sucks to be you, nothing to see here” it’s just to easy to go on the internet and complain.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jan 1, 2020 18:51:15 GMT -6
I sent a PM to those who were curious about the specifics of the complaints that initiated me asking if anyone can give some broader perspective on the claims - also I realize the complaints all may not be as easy to find, as viewing some required me to be logged in to a certain workplace review website.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 1, 2020 18:51:41 GMT -6
I'm really happy that the general tone of this thread is "Lets not rush to judgement"...society needs more of that. Makes me proud of our little microcosm.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jan 1, 2020 18:53:35 GMT -6
I'm really happy that the general tone of this thread is "Lets not rush to judgement"...society needs more of that. Makes me proud of our little microcosm. Thats actually the spirit of my original post, seems like my intention may have been missed.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 1, 2020 19:03:24 GMT -6
I liked KCAT's last post, however, I'm confident that Jacob didn't intentionally mean any "back stabbing" at all.
Jacob, if you will forgive me... I'm much older than you are, and had some of the same kind of dealings you mentioned, with an employer (many years ago) who's still a friend. So I can understand this kind of thing first hand, assuming it happened. Just look at all those Classic Rock bands, who reunite for Touring or Recording (sometimes not just for the money!)... And they become "close friends again". So there's hope out there. Chris
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Post by drbill on Jan 1, 2020 19:16:23 GMT -6
To me, this has been a well balanced conversation - even if it veered off topic at times. Interesting to me at least. For every shadow of doubt, there has been a quick reply of positivity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 23:28:58 GMT -6
That's why I really like this place. Things stay civil and reasonable. I also guess there might be no need to delete the thread, but maybe it should be locked, if any administative action is needed at all. I think that Johnkenn will know how to handle this best. Thanks guys!
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 1, 2020 23:40:57 GMT -6
Cue, Best Deniro belligerent in your face voice: You talking to me ?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2020 23:41:33 GMT -6
Warm is welcome to come here and defend themselves. I haven’t read the thread, but there’s a lot of smoke.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2020 7:54:03 GMT -6
Warm is welcome to come here and defend themselves. I haven’t read the thread, but there’s a lot of smoke. This is one of those no win situations for an employer like Warm, staying quiet makes you look guilty, but in trying to defend your self any details about someone’s employment or exit could very well in its self be considered a reason for legal action. This is why most major companies will only verify the dates someone was employed if any inquiry is made. The best you would ever get is a statement that really said nothing. This is one of those few situations where the law protects the little guy rather than the big employer.
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