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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 2, 2020 21:48:13 GMT -6
Hey Herbie, happy new year, your call but maybe talk to Skip at Creationaudio Labs outside Nashville. He is an original Soundcraft guy who set up his own shop and repairs and mods a variety of boards including Soundcraft of course.
Good luck which ever way you jump.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 2, 2020 22:14:48 GMT -6
Herbie, just sent you a message. All the summing boxes are usually too pricey for me. I always wonder why spend $2,500 on a summing box when you can get a good used board for that much. But still, you're probably right. i certainly have no desire to deal with maintenance issues these days. I might get to try the Silver Bullet soon. That should be fun. I'll snoop around and start thinking on summing. Appreciate the inspiration Herbie, hanks.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 2, 2020 22:19:16 GMT -6
Analog summing tends to be additive...more channels, more difference. I wouldn’t do it unless I was mixing more than 8 tracks on the regular.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2020 2:09:42 GMT -6
Analog summing tends to be additive...more channels, more difference. I wouldn’t do it unless I was mixing more than 8 tracks on the regular. In a modern daw based mix environment it makes sense to me to mix into some color based line amp. It was drbill who encouraged me to try vs mixing on a console and I was impressed how good this works, and no it was not bills silver bullet, my stero 1073 is equipped with line inputs. In the end it was clear to me that getting good sounding harmonics on the 2 bus does the trick as good as mixing on a board for the sonic part. After that experience I was pretty sure that the SB layout makes sense for a daw based studio. I would love to try one myself, but it's a few thousand miles between me and the manufacturer.🛫🛬
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 3, 2020 6:58:56 GMT -6
Sure - any individual signal can be manipulated / improved by analog processing, which includes running it through a line amplifier. But summing multiple channels is that along with a second processing step, the actual combining of the signals. In an active device and/or through a transformer this combining step also has its own processing use. The second is what I was saying becomes more apparent with more tracks. A mixer does both things at once.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 3, 2020 9:29:46 GMT -6
Decided NOT to worry about the SSL Six and start researching summing boxes and other processors for mixing like the Silver Bullet.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 3, 2020 9:57:27 GMT -6
Decided NOT to worry about the SSL Six and start researching summing boxes and other processors for mixing like the Silver Bullet. I still think you should get your hands on one before you give up on it entirely.
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Post by drbill on Jan 3, 2020 10:15:02 GMT -6
Sure - any individual signal can be manipulated / improved by analog processing, which includes running it through a line amplifier. But summing multiple channels is that along with a second processing step, the actual combining of the signals. In an active device and/or through a transformer this combining step also has its own processing use. The second is what I was saying becomes more apparent with more tracks. A mixer does both things at once. Without being too contrarian, there's an interesting comparison on the other site. Burl summing box 32 channels wide w/ Burl makeup gain on the 2 buss, vs. Burl summing box 2 channels wide wide with summing happening ITB - with the same Burl makeup gain on the 2 buss, vs. Silver Bullet 2 channels wide with summing happening ITB - with SB LTL makeup gain on the 2 buss. Taking the Silver Bullet out of the equation (which was the crowd favorite), and just comparing 2 wide vs 32 wide on the Burl....the majority of folks chose the 2 wide. Why? It was more phase coherent, less smeared, and slightly punchier. (My opinion, not theirs. Not sure why everyone else chose the ITB summed version w/ 2 buss processing.) I'm not an electronics guru such as yourself, but my tests have led me to the conclusion that without transformers, tubes or class A line cards on every channel (rare in many/most of todays summing boxes), it's the makeup gain on the already summed 2 buss that brings the mojo. Most folks cannot discern WHERE the differences are taking place, but a simple 32 wide vs 2 wide run thru any box will tell you what you need to know. If the 2 channel version is as good or better, no need for OTB summing. Just run your proper ITB staged mix thru your 2 buss love chain. I have of not had the chance to hear all the summing boxes out there, but I've heard enough consoles and summing boxes to know that if you gain stage well ITB and put some analog love on the 2 buss, it will take you to your destination. And often....further....
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2020 13:07:48 GMT -6
Sure - any individual signal can be manipulated / improved by analog processing, which includes running it through a line amplifier. But summing multiple channels is that along with a second processing step, the actual combining of the signals. In an active device and/or through a transformer this combining step also has its own processing use. The second is what I was saying becomes more apparent with more tracks. A mixer does both things at once.
I just decided on comparison old console mixes vs new mixes into the Neve. To my ear both sounded great.
There is a second thing drbill taught me...don't second guess it if it sounds good.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 3, 2020 13:41:08 GMT -6
Haha I’m not an electronics guru by any means. I agree with you - summing in and of itself isn’t sonic. I can’t hear a difference with passive summing and digital makeup gain (no sound in resistors, so no surprise) so that’s all about the amp. But I think in addition to the input (transformer or active input, buffer etc) active summing does or can have a sound. But it also increases the noise floor, so no free lunch. For me, there’s something about how transients come together in an active summing stage that has a benefit - and the more tracks the more it shows. But, horses for courses. Also - you mentioned gain staging. Having one more analog piece (an active input or transformer) gives you on more opportunity for mojo. always the caveat... it has to sound good when pushed or not or else it’s just in the way.
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