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Post by Guitar on May 28, 2019 6:43:23 GMT -6
I know a lot of you are musicians and songwriters.
How do you differentiate between releasable tracks and "demos"?
It's a little hard to differentiate for me sometimes. Since I write and demo in the same studio with the same equipment that I do "work" on.
If a spontaneous idea is strong enough, but has a couple mistakes I might go ahead and go for overdubs and a mix.
Some other people are telling me don't settle for anything less than a great take. Good being the enemy of great. Which often would mean re-recording the idea from the start. If something is bad enough I will obviously re-track the part. But there's a big distance between that and a "Chinese Democracy" or "Thriller" type of attention to detail. Or the fantasy scenario of using studio musicians so everything is tight and fast at the same time. I'm a one man band so my piano is not nearly as good as my guitar for example (which I've been playing forever.)
I wear all the hats here and there is no one observing so I can get away with whatever I want and sometimes lines get blurred.
I'm wondering if any of you write completely separately from the "official" recording project, or maybe if you just keep everything super tight at all times so you can use anything you do. It's tricky for me because recording is part of my writing process, often I'm coming up with ideas while the mic is recording, such as a vocal melody or lyrics for example. Bass part, second guitar, whatever.
This guy I respect told me to tighten up my loose takes so I'm looking for any tricks or mindsets that might help. I have the ear to hear what's "wrong" so that's not the problem it's more a question of habits and working methods.
I tend to write very quickly, and move on to the next song quickly as well. One obvious prescription would be to take more time during the writing/tracking process, and to re-visit things until they are done, even if it means a week or whatever. It's just not something that I currently do. My average songwriting/rough mix session usually lasts an average of 3 hours. Sometimes 2 or rarely 4. Final mixdown might be some days later another several hours, along with mix revisions. I've got it down to a repeatable method, cranking out songs and so on, but methods can always be updated.
thanks
Dan
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Post by svart on May 28, 2019 6:51:48 GMT -6
This is one of those situations where having a separate engineer do the mixing really helps. It's typically very hard for a songwriter to be objective about their mixes, even if they fully intend to be.
"Tighten up" can mean a lot of different things to many different people unfortunately. Typically I do find that mixes done by the writers are a bit more sloppy, in timing and in meter. Looseness is usually mistaken for groove when the musician is tired of doing takes or just wants to get things done, but it's usually a subconscious thing, same as when they mistake poor quality as not being "overly produced" or other nonsense.
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Post by Guitar on May 28, 2019 6:57:33 GMT -6
This is one of those situations where having a separate engineer do the mixing really helps. It's typically very hard for a songwriter to be objective about their mixes, even if they fully intend to be. "Tighten up" can mean a lot of different things to many different people unfortunately. Typically I do find that mixes done by the writers are a bit more sloppy, in timing and in meter. Looseness is usually mistaken for groove when the musician is tired of doing takes or just wants to get things done, but it's usually a subconscious thing, same as when they mistake poor quality as not being "overly produced" or other nonsense. I think you're right. Stick another person in the room and suddenly I am way more attentive to small details and less subconsciously lazy. Everyone needs to be comfortable and impressed with the playing and the sound. People are not shy about voicing their concerns when they are a part of the product. It's not that I lack the ability it's the subconscious things you are talking about. I think for my "ALBUM" that I've been saving up songs for, I'm going to have to collaborate on it. Or at least hire an engineer to oversee and assist the process. |
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Post by svart on May 28, 2019 7:11:45 GMT -6
The other issue is that a lot of folks lose the feeling of "groove" when locked down to the grid, but I find that it's usually a case of a person not being able to play well to a metronome and blaming the metronome..
Yet I've had others ooze groove while locked down to the grid as well. It's really just a matter of practice I believe.
But then again, I'm a drummer, and everything is timing.
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Post by stormymondays on May 28, 2019 7:11:59 GMT -6
I have two opposing concepts:
1. I do all my "demos" with guitar and vocal only, on my iPhone, with the built-in mic. Usually they are the parts of the song and the phone is the sketchpad. That and an actual pen and paper notebook. Maybe, just maybe I'll record a complete run-through of the song, but that's rare. These are meant to never be useable on a record.
2. If I'm using the studio equipment, I never record anything that can't be used on a record. That means getting the right mic/pre, levels, etc.
So it's either sketchpad or record, with nothing in-between.
Then I record the songs with the band, with at least drums+bass+guitar+guide vocal. Drums are always keepers, bass 90%, and maybe some guitar ideas. I prefer to do vocals by themselves.
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Post by mjheck on May 28, 2019 7:37:59 GMT -6
iPhone voice notes are common for when I am not at home, or sometimes even if there is a time constraint and an idea arrives.
Otherwise, I enjoy writing while tracking in Logic. It can take some time to move from engineer brain to writer brain when doing this, so I end up using the loop feature and doing lots of takes until I can get into a more zen place.
An interesting development from the last two years comes from technology; the Ozone Rx works so well, I have been able to go back to really old stuff written in a different key or tempo and import it after changing it. This has been helpful for unique spaces or instruments I no longer own. And sometimes, you managed to capture some magic. I listen to some stuff from when I first started recording and there is a joy I am not sure I can achieve anymore. Maybe reckless abandon is a better phrase.
What has been kind of cool about this is it feels like working with a different person. Some of it feels so far away from my current headspace, its like hiring someone else.
MJH
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 7:46:04 GMT -6
I was listening to a podcast interview with Kelley Stoltz and he works the same way as monkey, he has his own home studio and only does two takes at the most and moves on as quickly as possible.. www.healthforlifegr.com/interview-kelley-stoltz/ |
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Post by Guitar on May 28, 2019 7:49:15 GMT -6
mjheckLooping takes is a pretty great idea. It would be as simple as hitting the loop keyboard shortcut on my numpad for Cubase and then playing more than once. I know what you mean about old material / in the field stuff. I am saving up for a Sound Devices MixPre so hopefully if I can get out in the field the tracks will "hold up" easily in the studio. There's a lot of magic that happens just getting out of your usual zone, I mean physical location.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 28, 2019 8:15:26 GMT -6
I use voice memo for capturing ideas quickly, import all those into logic : at that point I have an initial sense of song structure so I place those parts notionally where I think they are in the song, then I record the "good" takes in logic, after setting tempo etc and I loop record tilI get a god take, then move on building the song.
I also set the arrangement labels and the markers so that I can after the fact play with the arrangement as different ideas occur to me
When listening back I try to have a vocal mike set up and or guitar set to go, so if I have ideas while listening I just capture those quickly as well and build song one idea/ take at a time.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 28, 2019 8:17:58 GMT -6
I think the difference is in the ear of the beholder...although, there’s no doubt I’m not a studio musician...and they’re going to make things sound better than I ever could. There are also times that they play so perfectly that it can suck some of the soul out of it. I just had a song i co-wrote where I tracked everything except drums - spent about a week doing it. Artist and management freaked out over it, thought it was the best thing ever and wanted to get it straight to Sirius for their big shot. One of the other co-writers was kind of the “track” guy in the room and had done the drum programming I played to. So, before they sent it off, he wanted to add some real drums...so I sent over the session. I get the result back and he had taken everything I did off of it and replaced with a totally different feel with studio guys. Even after we had talked about “hey - let’s not look a gift horse in the mouth - if people are freaking out about it, let’s not chew get it up.”
Was the playing better? Absolutely. Was the recording better. Yes. Did it change the entire thing and make it sound just like everything else? I thought so. But - apparently the artist is happy. So - I guess my version was the demo. Other than my bruised ego, I’m good with whatever it takes to get it on the radio.
But this is what seems to happen - at least in Nashville. Everybody has to get their hands on it. This is somewhat of a cynical take - but it’s happened time after time after time. A publisher suggests lyrical changes (because then they have a stake in it). A producer has to re-track it (because he has to have a stake in it.) and so on and so on. So I guess what I’m saying is it’s a final only if you have final control in releasing it.
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Post by swurveman on May 28, 2019 8:24:51 GMT -6
Although all my home projects are very scrutinized and arranged, I still consider them demos and not releasable. I wouldn't consider anything a releasable track that wasn't done in a professional studio with professional musicians. My view is that with studio time so inexpensive, and with the quality of professional musicians in Nashville/New York/LA relatively inexpensive as well, the combination would far surpass what I can do in my small home studio. This particularly goes for drums, but there are some very tight studio bands and tracking vocals includes a chain far better than my own.
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Post by svart on May 28, 2019 8:30:34 GMT -6
I think the difference is in the ear of the beholder...although, there’s no doubt I’m not a studio musician...and they’re going to make things sound better than I ever could. There are also times that they play so perfectly that it can suck some of the soul out of it. I just had a song i co-wrote where I tracked everything except drums - spent about a week doing it. Artist and management freaked out over it, thought it was the best thing ever and wanted to get it straight to Sirius for their big shot. One of the other co-writers was kind of the “track” guy in the room and had done the drum programming I played to. So, before they sent it off, he wanted to add some real drums...so I sent over the session. I get the result back and he had taken everything I did off of it and replaced with a totally different feel with studio guys. Even after we had talked about “hey - let’s not look a gift horse in the mouth - if people are freaking out about it, let’s not chew get it up.” Was the playing better? Absolutely. Was the recording better. Yes. Did it change the entire thing and make it sound just like everything else? I thought so. But - apparently the artist is happy. So - I guess my version was the demo. Other than my bruised ego, I’m good with whatever it takes to get it on the radio. But this is what seems to happen - at least in Nashville. Everybody has to get their hands on it. This is somewhat of a cynical take - but it’s happened time after time after time. A publisher suggests lyrical changes (because then they have a stake in it). A producer has to re-track it (because he has to have a stake in it.) and so on and so on. So I guess what I’m saying is it’s a final only if you have final control in releasing it. That's exactly the bias I was talking about, and I don't mean that in a bad way at all, it's just that sometimes the writers have so much invested in it, it's hard for them to imagine any change*could* be an improvement.. Whether or not it actually is an improvement is subjective, of course. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 28, 2019 8:36:56 GMT -6
I think the difference is in the ear of the beholder...although, there’s no doubt I’m not a studio musician...and they’re going to make things sound better than I ever could. There are also times that they play so perfectly that it can suck some of the soul out of it. I just had a song i co-wrote where I tracked everything except drums - spent about a week doing it. Artist and management freaked out over it, thought it was the best thing ever and wanted to get it straight to Sirius for their big shot. One of the other co-writers was kind of the “track” guy in the room and had done the drum programming I played to. So, before they sent it off, he wanted to add some real drums...so I sent over the session. I get the result back and he had taken everything I did off of it and replaced with a totally different feel with studio guys. Even after we had talked about “hey - let’s not look a gift horse in the mouth - if people are freaking out about it, let’s not chew get it up.” Was the playing better? Absolutely. Was the recording better. Yes. Did it change the entire thing and make it sound just like everything else? I thought so. But - apparently the artist is happy. So - I guess my version was the demo. Other than my bruised ego, I’m good with whatever it takes to get it on the radio. But this is what seems to happen - at least in Nashville. Everybody has to get their hands on it. This is somewhat of a cynical take - but it’s happened time after time after time. A publisher suggests lyrical changes (because then they have a stake in it). A producer has to re-track it (because he has to have a stake in it.) and so on and so on. So I guess what I’m saying is it’s a final only if you have final control in releasing it. That's exactly the bias I was talking about, and I don't mean that in a bad way at all, it's just that sometimes the writers have so much invested in it, it's hard for them to imagine any change*could* be an improvement.. Whether or not it actually is an improvement is subjective, of course. And it works both ways. Lots of times engineers have zero feel for the song. My deal was why change the entire thing if they are loving what’s there? |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 28, 2019 8:39:44 GMT -6
To me, it’s the same conversation we’re having in the Quantizing John Bonham thread...make it so perfect it loses its charm and soul. But then, how much charm and soul is on modern country radio?
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Post by Johnkenn on May 28, 2019 8:48:13 GMT -6
I think my ultimate goal in all of this is to make enough money to be able to hire musicians - for more than 4 songs in 3 hours. But I guess that’s defined as making records. Man, it would be nice to have enough dough to make a record out of everything you write.
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Post by Guitar on May 28, 2019 9:03:21 GMT -6
I think my ultimate goal in all of this is to make enough money to be able to hire musicians - for more than 4 songs in 3 hours. But I guess that’s defined as making records. Man, it would be nice to have enough dough to make a record out of everything you write. That's right where I'm at too. Apparently "Friend benefits" is not really enough to keep a band around a single person these days. At least in my own life experience. |
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Post by tasteliketape on May 28, 2019 9:03:31 GMT -6
[quote author=. But then, how much charm and soul is on modern country radio?[/quote][
I think you can broaden that statement to radio......
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Post by Guitar on May 28, 2019 9:06:36 GMT -6
[quote author=. But then, how much charm and soul is on modern country radio? [ I think you can broaden that statement to radio...... [/quote] Absolutely. When I read someone talk about "Radio Ready Vocals" or something like that, I cringe a little bit, and chuckle to myself. It brings a very specific sound into my mind. |
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Post by Ward on May 28, 2019 10:15:47 GMT -6
I do it all the time. I look at it as a division of duties and steps in the process. A lot of the projects I take on are with singer-songwriters. My role is co-writer, arranger, producer, engineer, backing vocalist and principal session musician. So, I'll start a project writing with the artist, in the studio, and we work up demos, then take them away. Then we'll edit and redo lyrics and basic guide instrument tracks. Once this is done, I'll send out guide track mixes to session musicians I'll employ at the stage at hand. Usually a drummer or two, and a bass player or two, and divvy up the songs accordingly. Once we're satisfied with that much, we'll get to work on guitar and keyboard tracks and any other production elements we handle between ourselves. Once that's done, guide vocals usually get redone and sent out to any other backing vocalists or instrumentalists who will add overdubs. Whilst they're learning parts and coming up with ideas to add to the tracks, we'll start tracking lead vocals in earnest. Usually 6 takes, all of which would be good enough. Then comp that together and start the backing vocal tracking. usually with mine first, singing all parts, and identifying which ones for any femvox replacement or male parts that are too low for my voice, and then we'll start double-tracking lead vocals, doing ad libs etc. It's a long process but I tend to blur or smear the lines between writing, demoing, preproduction, production and post production. 99% of the time, the same pro tool session is used form songwriting to final mix. Abd like svart said, when it's my songwriting and production, I get outside help to come in. Everyone needs objectivity. |
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Post by Guitar on May 28, 2019 10:49:36 GMT -6
I was listening to a podcast interview with Kelley Stoltz and he works the same way as monkey, he has his own home studio and only does two takes at the most and moves on as quickly as possible.. www.healthforlifegr.com/interview-kelley-stoltz/Thanks for posting that. I decided to stop what I was doing and sit down and listen to the whole thing. I can relate to Kelley Stoltz in so many ways, it's nice to hear that someone else out there is making this specific thing "work." Literally as well as figuratively. I guess it's no big surprise that someone else out there with a similar disposition and skill set would end up having a somewhat similar life path as some other similar person. I haven't heard any of his music yet but that will be on the list for later today. EDIT: I'm listening to Double Exposure there's no surprise this guy is making money, the music is exceptional. SECOND EDIT: He spends, from the math I did in the interview, maybe a solid 8 hours on any one track, and maybe into several overdubs and new instruments in following days. I would have to double my effort to match that kind of work ethic. You can hear his results though everything is in its right place, lyrically, intrumentally. There was a time about 2012/2013 where I intentionally increased my work hours in music and I got immediate results. Might need to ponder on doing it again. |
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Post by svart on May 28, 2019 10:57:57 GMT -6
That's exactly the bias I was talking about, and I don't mean that in a bad way at all, it's just that sometimes the writers have so much invested in it, it's hard for them to imagine any change*could* be an improvement.. Whether or not it actually is an improvement is subjective, of course. And it works both ways. Lots of times engineers have zero feel for the song. My deal was why change the entire thing if they are loving what’s there? I think it's a case of they also want to have input, and "loving it" might be a stop on the way to "I'm loving it more now". I guess it's kinda like that old tale of someone in the studio who just can't stop asking for small changes so the engineer gives them a few channels to play with and they are happy with the results.. but the channels weren't actually doing anything to the mix.. The folks just need to have some tweak in order to feel like they're a part of it. |
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Post by Guitar on May 28, 2019 12:46:09 GMT -6
The other issue is that a lot of folks lose the feeling of "groove" when locked down to the grid, but I find that it's usually a case of a person not being able to play well to a metronome and blaming the metronome.. Yet I've had others ooze groove while locked down to the grid as well. It's really just a matter of practice I believe. But then again, I'm a drummer, and everything is timing. I have no problem whatsoever with playing to a click track, in fact it's a critical tool to use for backwards song building where you start with something that's not drums, like a bass, guitar, or keyboard. If you play to a click then you can overdub the drums without a train wreck. Also want to say that the best drummer I have ever worked with, who has groove and feel for days, has no problems of any kind playing to a click. I don't want to judge but some of the lesser technically skilled players I've worked with are the ones who can't play to a click. Which is really hard to work around in some scenarios. |
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Post by shoe on May 28, 2019 13:46:11 GMT -6
I do a little bit of several things mentioned, here. 1. I do like to use my phone to capture song ideas when they happen (sometimes just vocals, sometimes just guitar, sometimes I hum a bassline or hum and intro then sing, etc. 2. When I record, it's often sort of like sculpting. I will record the parts as best I can (sometimes while writing) and do quite a few takes for bass and vocals, fewer for guitars, usually, because I am a much better guitarist  . Then I will keep working on it sort of iteratively doing critical listening, replacing things I am not happy with while doing a mix. At this point, if it's pretty good sounding, I will send it to a few friends for opinions and sometimes incorporate their advice. Then, I will often leave the song alone for a while, sometimes a few weeks or months, even, and listen critically again once I have some distance. If it still sounds good to me, then I will leave it alone. If I notice new things that I don't like, I will work on it some more. |
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Post by chessparov on May 28, 2019 14:35:03 GMT -6
Another great RGO thread! Will be reading/studying these responses, over the next couple of days...
Thanks, Chris
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Post by wiz on May 28, 2019 16:52:30 GMT -6
About to board flight to LA will write a detailed post tomorrow
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. Then I will keep working on it sort of iteratively doing critical listening, replacing things I am not happy with while doing a mix. At this point, if it's pretty good sounding, I will send it to a few friends for opinions and sometimes incorporate their advice. Then, I will often leave the song alone for a while, sometimes a few weeks or months, even, and listen critically again once I have some distance. If it still sounds good to me, then I will leave it alone. If I notice new things that I don't like, I will work on it some more. 
