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Post by popmann on May 28, 2019 16:56:26 GMT -6
The line used to be a LOT more clear. The demo was a mock up you did at home, usually with a MIDI sequencer/sampler. Some of that might be USED IN....ie "flown in" to the real studio recording, but that was a kind of demo'itus exception. They were completely different processes.
But, for me, the demo is about working quickly. That takes a cumulative toll. It's not about not using "the good gear"...it's about the demo process needing to be as fast as possible, because the idea is to get the idea down (which includes arrangement elements in my case) before it's corrupted. I disagree about clicks, because to cut a demo to a click means you're corrupting the idea. ALWAYS...there was always a quick decision point I had to make--do I demo sans drums, or with a click. LPX's Drummer removed that decision. Unless the idea I hear is disco/EDM groove, without. Working fast means my "day one demo" will have:
-sampled drums -digital organ -simple "placeholder" parts -One mic to record bass amp, guitar amp, acoustic, vocal -Usually no headphones--so, everything bleeds to everything (to some degree)
I went through a period making writing demos with the Kronos where I hung an Sm7b off the back of it's sampling input...I'm just working quickly and I need something that will do ok on anything. Walk it over to the amps, drop it in front, set a level and record.
This album I'm working on has been an experiment in blurring that line intentionally. There is one tune (I posted instrumentally a while back) that the core is the day one demo--with a few edits here and there for structure. I have a placeholder high violin that will NEED to be replaced. That's not an actual string arrangement. I would actually LIKE to redo some others, but I want to leave it to make a point to MYSELF...we'll see should I ever finish the lyrics, which brings me to the OTHER aspect:
My "fun"...my "love" is arranging. I USED to have to finish a song before I really even started the process. Now? Between the Logic Drummer's instant tempo mapping drums...and how good all the MIDI sources (VIs) sound...the sonics of that quick demo are really good. So, I can have my half baked (lyrically) idea--and once the melody is there for a song cycle, I can whip out what basically sounds like a record pretty quickly...and then...well, now I'm going to write lyrics? Like that's ALL I have to do to finish, but why? I've already had my fun. Created something from nothing. And given the income from sharing the results with the world, ehh...why bother? So, right now, I have an ENTIRE album of material that's basically mostly ready to go with half baked lyrics. I'd rather make something else--even though I don't know that that's the long term "best move for me".
jamielang.bandcamp.com
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Post by Guitar on May 28, 2019 17:05:17 GMT -6
About to board flight to LA will write a detailed post tomorrow Thanks, looking forward to your post. Have a nice flight!
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Post by Guitar on May 28, 2019 17:30:24 GMT -6
The line used to be a LOT more clear. The demo was a mock up you did at home, usually with a MIDI sequencer/sampler. Some of that might be USED IN....ie "flown in" to the real studio recording, but that was a kind of demo'itus exception. They were completely different processes. But, for me, the demo is about working quickly. That takes a cumulative toll. It's not about not using "the good gear"...it's about the demo process needing to be as fast as possible, because the idea is to get the idea down (which includes arrangement elements in my case) before it's corrupted. I disagree about clicks, because to cut a demo to a click means you're corrupting the idea. ALWAYS...there was always a quick decision point I had to make--do I demo sans drums, or with a click. LPX's Drummer removed that decision. Unless the idea I hear is disco/EDM groove, without. Working fast means my "day one demo" will have: -sampled drums -digital organ -simple "placeholder" parts -One mic to record bass amp, guitar amp, acoustic, vocal -Usually no headphones--so, everything bleeds to everything (to some degree) I went through a period making writing demos with the Kronos where I hung an Sm7b off the back of it's sampling input...I'm just working quickly and I need something that will do ok on anything. Walk it over to the amps, drop it in front, set a level and record. This album I'm working on has been an experiment in blurring that line intentionally. There is one tune (I posted instrumentally a while back) that the core is the day one demo--with a few edits here and there for structure. I have a placeholder high violin that will NEED to be replaced. That's not an actual string arrangement. I would actually LIKE to redo some others, but I want to leave it to make a point to MYSELF...we'll see should I ever finish the lyrics, which brings me to the OTHER aspect: My "fun"...my "love" is arranging. I USED to have to finish a song before I really even started the process. Now? Between the Logic Drummer's instant tempo mapping drums...and how good all the MIDI sources (VIs) sound...the sonics of that quick demo are really good. So, I can have my half baked (lyrically) idea--and once the melody is there for a song cycle, I can whip out what basically sounds like a record pretty quickly...and then...well, now I'm going to write lyrics? Like that's ALL I have to do to finish, but why? I've already had my fun. Created something from nothing. And given the income from sharing the results with the world, ehh...why bother? So, right now, I have an ENTIRE album of material that's basically mostly ready to go with half baked lyrics. I'd rather make something else--even though I don't know that that's the long term "best move for me". jamielang.bandcamp.com Hi Jamie, I am interested in the idea of studio tools being so good now, that initial songwriting ideas can sometimes become closed to "finished." And also the laziness that keeps someone from going the last 10 yards. The point where the artist says OK, this is going out now. It's not a physical barrier but a mental stopping point. It seems that in the past there were some technological limitations that made a hard delineation between a writing spell, and a recording/producing spell. Now that gear and resources have become somewhat democratized, the hard line is becoming more of a soft line. The real "hard line" to me seems to be interpersonal resources. That is getting multiple people to work on the same project. They say that recording can be a "service industry" and one usually has to pay for service so that is a physical restraint for someone with a small budget. I am certainly considering my options in terms of people I can spend money on rather than gear I can buy, which is a relatively new concept for me. Any old way, I am listening to your bandcamp right now and enjoying it a lot.
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Post by jampa on May 28, 2019 17:47:29 GMT -6
If I'm recording me I definitely compartmentalise:
jamming/writing/goofing/trying/demos
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setup/levels/monitoring/mic positions
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recording album takes/reviewing takes/experimenting once I have keepers
Sometimes there's only a minute between each step but I make the mental shift
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Post by donr on May 28, 2019 19:27:36 GMT -6
I think more and more these days the writing demo IS the track. Since things are recorded to a fixed tempo most the time, and elements can be moved and copied and pasted, there's less reason to start from scratch to generate the finished product. Trevor Horn said something to that effect in his Sound On Sound interview. He also thought most songs today have lyrics written to a groove or track. He thought it's better if music is written to a lyric. I tend to agree, it's how I usually work.
I'm writing for a new record, the first I've done in many years. I'm thinking the band will track the songs live, but I'm also thinking, why re-record some parts I really like and that have already consumed a fair amount of time and effort creating? Should be interesting. I don't know, but I'll bet Todd Rundgren doesn't do demos at this point, I imagine he's making the master on the fly.
There's the whole sequenced vs. real musicians thing, and I generally live in the latter camp, but I have no problem with fixed tempos or music like Daft Punk's "Random Access Memory" or Pharrell William's "Happy," which sound like they were constructed in a DAW, albeit with live elements.
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Post by mrholmes on May 29, 2019 10:58:41 GMT -6
I bite even if I am not sure to get the question to 100%. IMO the sound someone can get at home with some room treatment and a few pieces of nice gear is far away from Tascam Demos. I listened very close when drbill talked about workflow. I created my workspace in way that I can write arrange and mix at the same time. With the DAW it's no longer a process in steps for me. I can track ideas in seconds I can erase them. I can say the LV is good enough for the moment but will be retracked. I can play guitars bases keys... It's all ready to track around me. It works best for me and the songs.
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Post by chessparov on May 29, 2019 12:14:53 GMT -6
"Music is to lyric"... Like "Film Score is to Film"
Part of why I love Classic Country music (including "The Outlaws" Johnny/Willie/Waylon-of course) so much. Three chords and the truth.
Same for singers. Sinatra/Nat/Dean/Sam Cooke/Otis/Marvin/Curtis/Patsy/Karen/Dusty/Linda/Darin... Sang with their hearts and never oversang. Never to a grid either. Sang to "the story". Chris
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Post by Guitar on May 29, 2019 13:15:37 GMT -6
I just wanted to clarify the advice I got.
He said (I paraphrase), "Don't settle for anything less than a good take."
Which means don't phone it in after the first take, bite down on the mouthpiece and get in there and replay the take if it wasn't 100% something you want to live with.
Me and this person don't rely on digital editing tools, sort of the old tape machine mindset/workflow. Any mistakes are going to be visible (audible).
I guess it affected me emotionally because I know for a fact that I settle for less than good takes on a fairly common basis. Sort of a warts and all approach to tracking/songwriting.
That's what makes some of my songs sound more like "demos" than any other factor. Maybe that an a lack of overdubs/orchestration/arrangement. Basically just quitting too soon.
The mixing and tracking is all fine. I just need to work on my working habits some.
There is a very specific feeling I associate with trying really hard to play the perfect part. I know how to do it, I've done it before, it's hard and it takes way more time.
The result of tracking like that is the pieces fit together into this perfect pocket, everything is "locked in."
I find it hard to focus on that during songwriting though. I'm just trying to come up with good parts as quickly as I can.
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Post by chessparov on May 29, 2019 14:24:14 GMT -6
That's why I left a couple, less than stellar vocal clips of mine here at RGO. Those will bug the cr*p out of me, until I HAVE to go back and nail them! A form of positive motivation, I guess. Chris
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Post by Guitar on May 29, 2019 14:33:29 GMT -6
That's why I left a couple, less than stellar vocal clips of mine here at RGO. Those will bug the cr*p out of me, until I HAVE to go back and nail them! A form of positive motivation, I guess. Chris Yeah I think there is always going to be some amount of that in any release or performance schedule. You have to be OK with it. I think the question becomes, "How much wonkiness, and how much effort/time am I willing to pour into that to make it less." In that sense every release or performance is really an experiment. And I think that's OK.
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