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Post by Quint on Mar 22, 2019 20:39:03 GMT -6
I’d prefer it to fucking work like every other DAW available. Sounds like my general fucking plan. Funny how PT has an unofficial plan to make that not be a case unless you are an HD customer. Avid's motives are pretty clear at this point.
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Post by dankin on Mar 23, 2019 8:46:11 GMT -6
I haven't used hardware inserts in a few years, but in the past, they were not sample accurate with 3rd party hardware, unless your convertors have the same amount of latency as the avid ones. It's not off enough that you would notice a timing issue, but you can't use them in parallel or you will have phase issues. I haven't had internal delay comp issues in a long time with PT, as long as I stay with in the limits. But, it is ridiculous that there is still a limit on it in 2019. If you stack UAD plugins on channels and busses, and also use soothe or Gulfoss, Ozone, etc you can easily run out. Most of my go to plugins have very little latency or none at all, so it's rarely a real issue for me. But I was just trying the Weiss MM1 and that was enough to push a session over the limit. You can bypass delay compensation on the mix buss, but your meters will end up really late and if you print mix's to a track like I do, they will not be aligned with the session. I've tried to leave PT a few times, and I always end up back pretty quickly. That being said, I haven't renewed my subscription in 2 years as of this month. I've been on 2018.3 this whole time, which is pretty solid outside of a few bugs that I know to work around. They've really done nothing in the past 2 years, other than some improvements to LLM that I would want. If 2019 brings anything substantial and proves to be solid, I may get current again, otherwise I will stay where I'm at for a while longer. $400 a year for basically nothing isn't worth it:)
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Post by popmann on Mar 23, 2019 9:02:15 GMT -6
I think the throwing up of ones hands is a cop out. No ANALOG system was capable of aligning some variable like how far drivers are from a perspctive ear drum, which BTW, is why a headphone on a mic is functionally useless for what you think youre trying to account for. I can promise with the SAME headphones, my ear drum and yours aren't the same distance from the driver....the diaphragm of two mics wont be either....none of that is reason to just justify not putting a very simple to implement offset into the app, or apparently (according to UA) read the value from the driver.
For a recording/reproduction system, the test is analog to analog. Be the system analog or digital based. IMO.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 23, 2019 16:22:57 GMT -6
I haven't used hardware inserts in a few years, but in the past, they were not sample accurate with 3rd party hardware, unless your convertors have the same amount of latency as the avid ones. It's not off enough that you would notice a timing issue, but you can't use them in parallel or you will have phase issues. I haven't had internal delay comp issues in a long time with PT, as long as I stay with in the limits. But, it is ridiculous that there is still a limit on it in 2019. If you stack UAD plugins on channels and busses, and also use soothe or Gulfoss, Ozone, etc you can easily run out. Most of my go to plugins have very little latency or none at all, so it's rarely a real issue for me. But I was just trying the Weiss MM1 and that was enough to push a session over the limit. You can bypass delay compensation on the mix buss, but your meters will end up really late and if you print mix's to a track like I do, they will not be aligned with the session. I've tried to leave PT a few times, and I always end up back pretty quickly. That being said, I haven't renewed my subscription in 2 years as of this month. I've been on 2018.3 this whole time, which is pretty solid outside of a few bugs that I know to work around. They've really done nothing in the past 2 years, other than some improvements to LLM that I would want. If 2019 brings anything substantial and proves to be solid, I may get current again, otherwise I will stay where I'm at for a while longer. $400 a year for basically nothing isn't worth it:) $400 per year? You’re on HD? And still have latency issues?
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Post by popmann on Mar 24, 2019 11:01:21 GMT -6
I tried to explain this to a local friend the other day. There is no digital recording system without latency. And if it's a Turing Machine based one, MULTIPLE points of VARIABLE latency. "Latency issues" are not understanding the causes and mitigations of said latency.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 24, 2019 11:05:22 GMT -6
I tried to explain this to a local friend the other day. There is no digital recording system without latency. And if it's a Turing Machine based one, MULTIPLE points of VARIABLE latency. "Latency issues" are not understanding the causes and mitigations of said latency. I think the key word here is perceptible latency.
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 29, 2019 7:46:36 GMT -6
Hey, all! I have a Reaper analog loop test result for you using my Apollo 8 quad (black). I wanted to run a snare sample through a couple different distortion boxes for something I'm working on. I wanted it to be in phase so I dropped in a single click on the channel before the snare came into the song. I ran the test twice. Once with the Apollo Input Delay Compensation "Off." Once with it on "Long." 48kHz with 1024 samples of buffer size in Reaper. Sooooo... roundtrip latency is 44ms with IDC "Off" and 65ms with IDC on "Long." Channel 48 -> hardware out 6 -> outboard distortion (one's a guitar pedal and one's the input of a 70's Ibanez AD-150 analog delay mixed 100% dry) -> DI -> preamp -> analog in 6 - Channel 49 or 50 They came in right on the grid line ALMOST every single time. I ran the test a few times, took my screenshot, then ran it a couple more times. On one of the loops, when IDC is set to "Long" it came back 1 sample ahead. I tried to attach a screenshot. Hopefully it worked. The image you see (if it doesn't make sense right away is three channels in Reapers edit window view. The blue is the click (you can see the wave go up at the grid line). The dark gray is the Keeley Oxblood Germanium Overdrive. The light color is the Ibanez Delay. Attachments:
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 4, 2019 11:04:06 GMT -6
Any other follow up from anyone?
Did anyone else do some loopback tests? What were the results?
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Post by Drew @ UA on Apr 4, 2019 11:51:00 GMT -6
FYI, our QA department is currently running a battery of tests and I'll update everyone when the results are in.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 4, 2019 14:24:04 GMT -6
FYI, our QA department is currently running a battery of tests and I'll update everyone when the results are in. Bravo!
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Post by brenta on Apr 4, 2019 14:28:41 GMT -6
FYI, our QA department is currently running a battery of tests and I'll update everyone when the results are in. Thanks UA for taking this seriously and looking into it further!
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Post by drumrec on Apr 7, 2019 12:14:04 GMT -6
FYI, our QA department is currently running a battery of tests and I'll update everyone when the results are in. Yeeee Lovely Drew @ UAAre u checking PT only or do you test several daws ( I am on Logic)?
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Post by Drew @ UA on Apr 8, 2019 15:17:33 GMT -6
Hi all, We've completed our internal testing.
The issue with audio arriving on the timeline incorrectly is caused by Pro Tools’ “Ignore Errors During Playback/Record” preference. When it is enabled, audio from all 3rd party interfaces is affected by the Pro Tools H/W Buffer Size. We have tested various Apollos and other interfaces on Windows and Mac and believe the issue came into play between Pro Tools 12.4 and 2018.3.
We have characterized our findings and shared them with AVID to help find a solution.
At this time, we recommend that users do not enable “Ignore Errors During Playback/Record” and contact AVID for more information.”
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 8, 2019 16:51:06 GMT -6
Hi all, We've completed our internal testing. The issue with audio arriving on the timeline incorrectly is caused by Pro Tools’ “Ignore Errors During Playback/Record” preference. When it is enabled, audio from all 3rd party interfaces is affected by the Pro Tools H/W Buffer Size. We have tested various Apollos and other interfaces on Windows and Mac and believe the issue came into play between Pro Tools 12.4 and 2018.3. We have characterized our findings and shared them with AVID to help find a solution. At this time, we recommend that users do not enable “Ignore Errors During Playback/Record” and contact AVID for more information.” This is kind of HUGE then. So, this is a problem with UAD IDC Off? I didn’t have “Ignore Errors” selected and I was still getting the issue. But maybe that was with UAD IDC on. You’re saying that this ignore error latency happens even with that off, right? With that said - and I will go ahead and re-check - my PT (the latest) still records late with IDC engaged. Even with ignore errors off.
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Post by Drew @ UA on Apr 8, 2019 18:31:59 GMT -6
One thing you may not be aware of, our IDC cannot be changed with the DAW open. We report the delay once (100, 200, 1000 samples) to the DAW and if you change IDC with it open, there's no way for the DAW to know.
With this "rule" adhered to, our IDC has no impact on timing.
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Post by sirthought on Apr 8, 2019 18:52:59 GMT -6
Well, that last rule was certainly interesting information.
Do you know if other DAWS have similar quirks to be aware of in this area? If it's just making sure the whole process has the right settings checked or opening software in a certain manor, that's easy to follow, if you know.
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Post by joey808 on Apr 8, 2019 20:49:08 GMT -6
What a mess avid! If these issues are not corrected, will not be re-subscibing.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Apr 8, 2019 21:00:51 GMT -6
One thing you may not be aware of, our IDC cannot be changed with the DAW open. We report the delay once (100, 200, 1000 samples) to the DAW and if you change IDC with it open, there's no way for the DAW to know. With this "rule" adhered to, our IDC has no impact on timing. Hi Drew, Is this the case with Cubase as well?
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 8, 2019 23:55:45 GMT -6
One thing you may not be aware of, our IDC cannot be changed with the DAW open. We report the delay once (100, 200, 1000 samples) to the DAW and if you change IDC with it open, there's no way for the DAW to know. With this "rule" adhered to, our IDC has no impact on timing. Just a quick heads-up: Reaper seems to have no problem adjusting to the IDC change. The readout in Reaper telling me what my current latency is reacts and changes as soon as I change the IDC. If Apollo Console isn't reporting, Reaper must be regularly polling the roundtrip latency or something.
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Post by Drew @ UA on Apr 9, 2019 9:33:40 GMT -6
One thing you may not be aware of, our IDC cannot be changed with the DAW open. We report the delay once (100, 200, 1000 samples) to the DAW and if you change IDC with it open, there's no way for the DAW to know. With this "rule" adhered to, our IDC has no impact on timing. Hi Drew, Is this the case with Cubase as well? This issue we tested for is a PT issue. I believe John posted that he tested with Cubase and it was fine.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 9, 2019 9:37:46 GMT -6
Yeah. Think this is completely a PT issue. Going to try a few things today hopefully. So - is the looping back of the click the best way to test this?
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 9, 2019 9:40:29 GMT -6
Drew @ UA this request might be beyond capability (the maths were hard for me) But would there ever be a possibility for UA to add some sort of utility plug for measuring round trip converter latency?
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Post by Drew @ UA on Apr 10, 2019 8:01:03 GMT -6
I believe RTL Utility is available for Mac. I know it is for PC.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 10, 2019 8:34:40 GMT -6
Drew @ UA this request might be beyond capability (the maths were hard for me) But would there ever be a possibility for UA to add some sort of utility plug for measuring round trip converter latency? Sure; drop Protools and use Logic's Utility i/o plug in
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Post by Drew @ UA on Apr 10, 2019 14:16:45 GMT -6
One thing you may not be aware of, our IDC cannot be changed with the DAW open. We report the delay once (100, 200, 1000 samples) to the DAW and if you change IDC with it open, there's no way for the DAW to know. With this "rule" adhered to, our IDC has no impact on timing. Just a quick heads-up: Reaper seems to have no problem adjusting to the IDC change. The readout in Reaper telling me what my current latency is reacts and changes as soon as I change the IDC. If Apollo Console isn't reporting, Reaper must be regularly polling the roundtrip latency or something. I do believe PT is the only DAW that doesn't react dynamically.
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